Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

[Riverman]

Here is Kolonje in antiquity

See, Antiquity, different time frame in the 3rd-2nd century BC. By that time, not just Channelled Ware was gone, but their successor-daughter groups too. They all had transformed into new subgroups, some even disappeared, others being assimilated and soaked up. 2nd century BC is a completely different world in comparison to the EIA.

There are just kind of original Illyrians, of which we don't know how far to the East they were, this will be interesting and possibly testable, also with the help of this samples. Like the hallmark for Illyrians is J-L283 and increased Bell Beaker-like ancestry for the Balkans. The question is how far it reached when.

Channelled Ware came in later, in the transitional period and Early Iron Age. And they met along that contact zone. I said that before and I posted maps showing it, before this paper. Some ridiculed it, but fact is, there was a contact zone of these two major formations in the Balkans.

By the later historical and later periods of Antiquity, the Southern Illyrians had completely fused with those local people and Channelled Ware. That's why you see the unchanged Illyrians still scoring a lot of J-L283 and Bell Beaker like ancestry, while those in the East being a mixed and fused group, whether they spoke Illyrian or not.

It's like it is with later South Slavs. Slavs they are nevertheless, but shifted in the direction of locals and later influences. Same here. You have actual Proto-Illyrians (J-L283 dominated and more Bell Beaker shifted), and then you have later Illyrians of which some still have this profile, while others mixed with Channelled Ware, Central-Eastern and Southern Balkan people.

 

[ihype02]

This is why it was important to make a distinction between northern and southern Illyrians. It was also important to note that ancient Macedonians/southern Illyrians essentially were identical genetically. Alexander the Great's mother and paternal grandmother came from the territory of Albania And btw, I drew a box instead of individual points, because no one could predict exactly where they fell with 100% precision. Modern Albanians have Roman Imperial admixture as well.
EDIT: I already see Michalis crying in Anthrogenica because ancient Albanians plot identical to Macedonians. That must hurt right in the Greek nationalism The leaked Greek study already showed that ancient Macedonians don't plot with Bulgarian IA, but he keeps propping up fake theories to sleep at night.

I doubt he cares.
As for the study it looks weird we have a Thessalonian and it looks Mycenaean.

 

[ihype02]

I would bet my house that IA Macedonians were similar to Mycenaeans. Well if I am wrong I am wrong.

 

[Dushman]

As a “believer” in the last century’s anthropology and physical appearance in combination with auDNA, my money is on the Makedonians being Northern Balkan shifted when compared to Mycenaeans.

The 2 Logkas samples were already a good indication of Northern intrusion. Logkas02 looks Illyrian and Logkas04 looks some sort of Dacian/Carpathian.

 

[ihype02]

As a “believer” in the last century’s anthropology and physical appearance in combination with auDNA, my money is on the Makedonians being Northern Balkan shifted when compared to Mycenaeans.
The 2 Logkas samples were already a good indication of Northern intrusion. Logkas02 looks Illyrian and Logkas04 looks some sort of Dacian/Carpathian.

Nah it is probably a sample from Northern Macedonia forming a cline with IA Albania to IA Croatia. Western Balkans was more Northern Shifted.
Also, where is that proud J2b carrier screaming IA Albania will look like the Dalmatian samples?

 

[Riverman]

Nah it is probably a sample from Northern Macedonia forming a cline with IA Albania to IA Croatia. Western Balkans was more Northern Shifted.
Also, were is that proud J2b carrier screaming IA Albania will look like the Dalmatian samples?

I think more important than just North vs South is what kind of Northern ancestry. Because the Illyrian J-L283 carriers being shifted towards Bell Beakers, from which they clearly got influences (Bell Beakers into Cetina, Tumulus culture/Apennine culture into Posusje-Dinaric), while the more central Balkan group had closer ties, via Eastern Pannonia, to groups like Mierzanowice (Proto-Baltoslavic?) and Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni (late steppe, early Iranians?). They were in completely different networks.
The Central Balkan groups were in a network with Epi-Corded/Eastern Europe and the steppe, as well as the Aegean and Anatolia at the same time. This is true throughout the time and from Pannonia down to the Aegean.

The Illyrian network was more Danube-Alpine-Adriatic centered, so very clearly towards the Eastern and Southern Bell Beakers. And it shows, that's why the Illyrians plot so close to Southern French and Northern Italians.

Very different with the Central Balkans groups. Channelled Ware brought new Northern influences, but the Thracian world connected Aegean-Anatolian with Pannonia, once more.

In the developed Iron Age, some Illyrian groups expanded East, and fused and assimilated some of the Central groups, like the Srem group and the Dardanians are such mixed outcomes.

 

[torzio]

What we define archaeologically Illyrian which encompasses Glasinac-Mat and became synonymous with that nowadays and what was initially Illyrian might differ, the first attested Illyrian kingdom was that of Enchelei, the Enchelei used cremation on a pyre, and their burial rite might be Eastern Urnfield derived. The Illyrians on general were mostly affected by Glasinac-Mat Culture and secondarily the Trebeniste Culture whom Enchelei were representatives, the Enchelei are noted by Hammond to have had connections with Dardanii and Taulantii via the tribe called Peresadyes, this was used as personal name among Odrysians, and one attested Spartokid king in Black Sea Kingdom as well.

I don't know how Y-DNA picture looked like, would be interesting to know if E-V13 appears in Early Iron Age. That would be clear. The Trebeniste Culture remains might be tested since during Classical times they started burying their deads in necropolises.

Periplus of Pseudo-Skylax from the 4th century BC, mentions the Enchelei as an Illyrian tribe on the Adriatic coast in modern-day Rhizon Montenegro. before they moved to Lake Ohrid Macedonia

Herodian (2nd century A.D.) mentions that Rhizon takes its name from Rizon, son of Cadmus and brother of Illyrius.[2] The earliest mention of Rhizon dates back to the 4th century BCE in the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax who mentions it as a settlement of the Enchelei. It later developed as a settlement of another Illyrian tribe, the Ardiaei.

 

[enter_tain]

I think more important than just North vs South is what kind of Northern ancestry. Because the Illyrian J-L283 carriers being shifted towards Bell Beakers, from which they clearly got influences (Bell Beakers into Cetina, Tumulus culture/Apennine culture into Posusje-Dinaric), while the more central Balkan group had closer ties, via Eastern Pannonia, to groups like Mierzanowice (Proto-Baltoslavic?) and Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni (late steppe, early Iranians?). They were in completely different networks.
The Central Balkan groups were in a network with Epi-Corded/Eastern Europe and the steppe, as well as the Aegean and Anatolia at the same time. This is true throughout the time and from Pannonia down to the Aegean.

The Illyrian network was more Danube-Alpine-Adriatic centered, so very clearly towards the Eastern and Southern Bell Beakers. And it shows, that's why the Illyrians plot so close to Southern French and Northern Italians.

Very different with the Central Balkans groups. Channelled Ware brought new Northern influences, but the Thracian world connected Aegean-Anatolian with Pannonia, once more.

In the developed Iron Age, some Illyrian groups expanded East, and fused and assimilated some of the Central groups, like the Srem group and the Dardanians are such mixed outcomes.

"Illyrian" referred to Iron Age Albanians you dolt. That was the first usage of the term Illyrian. The Greeks called their immediate northern neighbours Illyrian. The term comes from Greek.

You're trying to change the definition of the word, because you've been wrong with every paper that comes out.

 

[enter_tain]

As a “believer” in the last century’s anthropology and physical appearance in combination with auDNA, my money is on the Makedonians being Northern Balkan shifted when compared to Mycenaeans.

The 2 Logkas samples were already a good indication of Northern intrusion. Logkas02 looks Illyrian and Logkas04 looks some sort of Dacian/Carpathian.

Mate check the previous page. We have samples from northern Greece including Macedonia. They are Mycenean-like.

Not published yet, but we took screenshots of their youtube video.

 

[Riverman]

"Illyrian" referred to Iron Age Albanians you dolt. That was the first usage of the term Illyrian. The Greeks called their immediate northern neighbours Illyrian. The term comes from Greek.
You're trying to change the definition of the word, because you've been wrong with every paper that comes out.

Illyrians is not Albanians, its more and less tha that at the same time.
The linguistic and cultural block just has a North Western origin in the Balkans. The historical Illyrians from the current area of Albania being just a small part of the larger group.
And as we can see, the most mixed as well, because of the difference to the original core groups of Proto-Illyrians = HRV BA/IA.

 

[Leopoldo Leone]

My thread was finally proven today. Note how close Macedonia/Greek_Macedonia is to Illyrian. Pretty much identical.

I said those samples of southern Illyrians and Macedonians/Epirotes would fall in that red box. That's exactly where they fell.

Where is this leak from?

 

[Dushman]

Mate check the previous page. We have samples from northern Greece including Macedonia. They are Mycenean-like.

Not published yet, but we took screenshots of their youtube video.

I see only 1 sample from Thessalonike but do we know the dating? And we need at least 10-20 samples to start discussing things.

In another thread here someone posted the samples from Greece where they were predicting their appearance and we had a red haired possibly blue eyed Epirote-Makedonian woman as well as a “city dweller” predicted as very Mediterranean. So we need many samples to differentiate locals from possible colonists from further South or the Agean.

In any case, I believe the results will be on a cline.

1st cline: North-West to South-East direction starting with Northern Illyrians (HRV) - Central - South Illyrians - Epirotes/Makedonians and so on towards Greece and the Aegean.

2nd cline: North-East to South-West direction starting with Dacian/Carpathian - Thracian/Bessi/Odryssian - Southern Thracian/Makedonian - Thessalian and so on.

So far Albanians seem to be in between these 2 clines. This could be due to West and East Balkan variations merging with the Southern ones perhaps due to the Migration Period where people were pushed South and West. Ph2ter’s graph shows this possible scenario very well and you can see the location of Logkas02 and 04 on the PCA.
View attachment 13394


So Makedonia did receive North Western and North Eastern intrusions but we don’t know yet how much it was affected or if the previous Mycenaean-like auDNA completely outnumbered them and the situation didn’t change much if not at all.

 

[enter_tain]

Illyrians is not Albanians, its more and less tha that at the same time.
The linguistic and cultural block just has a North Western origin in the Balkans. The historical Illyrians from the current area of Albania being just a small part of the larger group.
And as we can see, the most mixed as well, because of the difference to the original core groups of Proto-Illyrians = HRV BA/IA.

Dude you're a clown and you've been exposed as such. Keep barking like a dog. The whole point of Illyrian-Albanian continuity is that Illyrians lived IN Albania.

Illyrians = Greek name given to their immediate northern neighbours. I.E. Taulanti, Dassareti, Parthini, etc... No one even called places in Croatia/Slovenia "Illyrians" until the Romans took over those areas.

Now that we have Iron Age samples from Albania, which I told you repeatedly they will be more southern and overlapping with Macedonians, now they're "just a small part of a larger group". Alright Bozo. I don't know why anyone still takes you seriously.

 

[Riverman]

Dude you're a clown and you've been exposed as such. Keep barking like a dog. The whole point of Illyrian-Albanian continuity is that Illyrians lived IN Albania.

You are the clown if you don't understand where they were coming from. They might have been there in the historical period, but the main ancestral component and lineage came from North West of Albania.

Or do you seriously claim that all the other samples with J-L283 and the Bell Beaker shift are no Illyrians?

 

[Dushman]

You are the clown if you don't understand where they were coming from. They might have been there in the historical period, but the main ancestral component and lineage came from North West of Albania.

Or do you seriously claim that all the other samples with J-L283 and the Bell Beaker shift are no Illyrians?

Is there any ancient ethnicity/linguistic group that is genetically identical to modern populations of the same area?

Because I know for a fact that modern Baltic people are more Southern shifted than their ancestors.

Italians are Eastern shifted or Northern shifted.

Iberians are South Eastern shifted.

So does anyone really deserve to be called anything?

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

I see only 1 sample from Thessalonike but do we know the dating? And we need at least 10-20 samples to start discussing things.

In another thread here someone posted the samples from Greece where they were predicting their appearance and we had a red haired possibly blue eyed Epirote-Makedonian woman as well as a “city dweller” predicted as very Mediterranean. So we need many samples to differentiate locals from possible colonists from further South or the Agean.

In any case, I believe the results will be on a cline.

1st cline: North-West to South-East direction starting with Northern Illyrians (HRV) - Central - South Illyrians - Epirotes/Makedonians and so on towards Greece and the Aegean.

2nd cline: North-East to South-West direction starting with Dacian/Carpathian - Thracian/Bessi/Odryssian - Southern Thracian/Makedonian - Thessalian and so on.

So far Albanians seem to be in between these 2 clines. This could be due to West and East Balkan variations merging with the Southern ones perhaps due to the Migration Period where people were pushed South and West. Ph2ter’s graph shows this possible scenario very well and you can see the location of Logkas02 and 04 on the PCA.
View attachment 13394


So Makedonia did receive North Western and North Eastern intrusions but we don’t know yet how much it was affected or if the previous Mycenaean-like auDNA completely outnumbered them and the situation didn’t change much if not at all.

You do realize that it's a coincidence because that Albanians plot close on PCA because they are shifted in 2 directions at the same time? Albanians are shifted to Slavic and Anatolia at the same time.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

My thread was finally proven today. Note how close Macedonia/Greek_Macedonia is to Illyrian. Pretty much identical.

I said those samples of southern Illyrians and Macedonians/Epirotes would fall in that red box. That's exactly where they fell.

It's a coincidence because Albanians are shifted in 2 directions, Anatolia and Slavs. PCA's do not show actual admixture.

 

[Archetype0ne]

You are the clown if you don't understand where they were coming from. They might have been there in the historical period, but the main ancestral component and lineage came from North West of Albania.

Or do you seriously claim that all the other samples with J-L283 and the Bell Beaker shift are no Illyrians?

Seems you are forgetting what Brumzi tried so hard to tell you about some leaks, aren't you? lol Since often you get confused at my comments. I am referring to the pre Glasinac Mati L283 in Albania. They had to come from nowhere in historical period mate.
When things were more ambiguous some credit was due, but now that things start to settle your bias is showing. Old story in fora, remember Huban? Mask slips here and there. Wonder what he will comment about Neolithic* V13 in Balkans if its confirmed.
But as for you, you might benefit from understanding one cant always be right. Just like you in the last 2-3 debates we had here and on anthro.

Albanian IA and modern Albanians overlapping? Muh noo, these were mixed Illyrians, Illyri propi dicti were not a thing(sarcasm).
Mate the whole backstage to your theories coincidentally always backs anti Albanian rhetoric in respect to autochthony, whatever haplo or period is being discussed.

I would understand this to be the case for a Balkan person brainwashed by 100 years of Jugoslav propaganda, but for an Austrian (us having had this discussion in private) you seem very Balkan like. Maybe its not just your haplogroup. Well certain diasporas are prevalent over there after all, and truth is not always told over pms, huh?

 

[Hawk]

There was no E-V13 in Eneolithic, Eneolithic is transitional period between Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age. That's a leak about Mesolithic, but i doubt he was positive E-V13, he was most likely E-L618.

And, only thing Huban was wrong was his Cetina theory, and he was actually against Gava but more strictly leaning in Vatin/Grla-Mara/Dubovac Zuto Brdo.

As for Bruzmi, he is clearly J2b2-L283 member associated with Rrenjet along with some Torbesh and Semitic lizards there. Anti E-V13 sentiments.

Riverman's hypothesis/theory just gets proven time over time. I saw the PCA, and indeed Iron Age Albania has a slight lean toward Danube but obviously still Southern and having the same cline as Macedonian IA and Bulgarian IA standing there. But that's no surprise since people from Southern Balkans up to Southern Central Europe had more or less similar ratios of Yamnaya/EEF.

 

[Archetype0ne]

There was no E-V13 in Eneolithic, Eneolithic is transitional period between Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age.

And, only thing Huban was wrong was his Cetina theory, and he was actually against Gava but more strictly leaning in Vatin/Grla-Mara/Dubovac Zuto Brdo.

As for Bruzmi, he is clearly J2b2-L283 member associated with Rrenjet along with some Torbesh and Semitic lizards there. Anti E-V13 sentiments.

Riverman's hypothesis/theory just gets proven time over time. I saw the PCA, and indeed Iron Age Albania has a slight lean toward Danube.

Neolithic. My bad. Was referring to Huban's master slave theories where he protrays non IE people, ie EEF/WHG as Untermensch.
As for Brumzi, how sure are you he is L283
Also Torbesh and Semites are based, so have no idea what you mean by that? "Lizards" Is that some derogatory sh? C'mon brother, I expect better from you.