Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 17 of 18 FirstFirst ... 715161718 LastLast
Results 401 to 425 of 438

Thread: Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

  1. #401
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    1,474

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    At this point I am unsure. Initially I heard of at least 2-3 samples from one single site in NA from BA-IA. While the SA site was not tested yet. Now there is a graphic with samples from BA-IA-MA, hence I suspect there is more than a batch of samples. Probably like 5 samples at least would be my understanding, if these samples are from different papers. But hopefully more.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  2. #402
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-10-21
    Posts
    92


    Ethnic group
    Italian (tuscan)
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Are you meaning 'Italianlike' = some level well mixed+homogenized pop? For a so mountaious region? I doubt. It's why some pop's with ancient DNA "looks" emerge later in history here and there, even if not parfectly identical with the ancestral ones.
    He probably means that Balkans in the Iron Age showed a cline from Bell Beaker like western mediterranean population to mycenean like populations in the southern regions, just like you have in Italy.

  3. #403
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,095

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    It is much older, It is around 2500 BC and starts from Vucedol
    Still at Vucidol after so many years in this forum. A beautiful dream. Is there any relation between Vucedol and Mycenaean samples.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  4. #404
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,949

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Still at Vucidol after so many years in this forum. A beautiful dream. Is there any relation between Vucedol and Mycenaean samples.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    since you never read the book,
    Possibly you will never know.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  5. #405
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,095

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    since you never read the book,
    Possibly you will never know.
    Samples?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  6. #406
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,949

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Samples?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Not for you.

  7. #407
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,095

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Not for you.
    Keep living the Vucidol Dream


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  8. #408
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,200

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I'm sticking to the definition of Illyrians I learnt and read in all reasonable sources:



    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ish%29.svg.png

    Illyrians being never restricted to Albania. And we know that other people's influences were stronger in the area of Albania than in the core zone of these Illyrians. That's just how it is.

    At some point we might simply see significant differences based on tribal groupings, caused by different admixture events.

    Alternative map:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...English%29.jpg
    use this map of illyria as per the Roman split of the area

    The Daunians came from the green area .....before going to apulia Italy circa 1000BC

    The black part is suppose to be "Illyrian proper" ...............the non-celtized part of Illyria

    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  9. #409
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,280


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Agree. It was just one of my "generalistic" reasonings remarks. I was not speaking of the effects of mountains on highlands vs plains, but of the general effect of mountains on circulation as a whole, in ancient Balkans (valuable for ancient Italy). I agree that from a relatively homogenous mixed pop can be born by some geographic barriers some striking differences that concern only a little part of the genome of the "children" subregional pop's. Nothing new.
    I agree with that. Mountain ranges can, if not block gene flow, lessen it, or direct it in certain directions. In Italy, the easiest entrance from the north is by skirting the Alps on the east, which ten feeds into the Veneto plain. Peoples coming from central/eastern Europe could flow both into Italy and the Balkans.

    Gene flow from the Balkans is also possible by that route, but in addition one can see the Balkans across the Adriatic in some places, and in others there are small islands in the Adriatic which act as "stepping stones".

    There's also gene flow through navigation of the Mediterranean, of course. By the time of the Romans it was easier to go from Anatolia to Greece and then on to Italy, but even in the Neolithic one could navigate along the shore. That's how the farmers made it to Spain from Italy, after all.

    Still, all in all, looking at the IBD analysis in particular, it wasn't as easy for other groups to massively change the genetics of Italy, not as easy as was the case for central/Eastern Europe, where it's one flat plain for thousands of kilometers. Which military leader was it who said it was perfect for tanks? Add to that the large population numbers and one can see why Southern Europe has had a quite different genetic history than Northern Europe, as Ralph and Coop point out.

    Spain is in much the same position, except that there was a deliberate policy of population re-settlements, and not as many internal barriers, and so the population isn't as structured as the Italian one. What people often fail to recognize is that there's not only the Alps in Italy to protect against massive migration, but there's the Apennines running north south, and creating differences between the eastern and western areas.

    Add to that the fact that the south was separated from the north/center since the fall of Rome, and that the central north was divided into Papal states and competing city states, and one can see why there is so much variation in Italy, far more, actually, in the north/central regions than in the south. So, when other groups say they are "near" or "similar to" Italians, the question is, which Italians "specifically", and you'd better have a lot of Italian samples even from one province, because there's going to be a difference.

    My Magra River Valley flows for 62 kilometers from the Apennines to the Mediterranean. I can see the difference in appearance of the locals by northern part, middle part, and Mediterranean part. Now, of course, we also have Southern migrants, so it's more confusing, but my point is that it would seem incredible that there could be that kind of stratification in such a small distance, but there is. The reason? On the sea coast, you're going to have more admixture, largely from Toscana but also further afield. Up in the foothills, people don't move very far from their home villages, and don't trust people not from their home villages. "Moglie e buoi dei paesi tuoi" is a famous rhyming saying. Cows and wives from your own villages. Added to that, this small area was divided into three separate sub-areas, ruled by three different governments, with passes required for movement in some cases: Modena, Toscana, and Genova.

    Such is the Italian history which people should know before trying to draw big conclusions from genetic data.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  10. #410
    Banned
    Join Date
    27-08-20
    Posts
    351

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z17107

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by lacreme View Post
    The (Dodecad K12b) distance of my Greek friend and his paternal grandmother from your samples

    Distance to: Chris
    5.11605317 AlbanianGheg
    12.24463148 Dukagjin
    12.69021276 Dukagjin2
    14.78278729 AlbanianGheg2

    Distance to: Chris_Paternal_Grandma
    5.13259194 AlbanianGheg
    8.33935249 Dukagjin2
    8.36463388 Dukagjin
    11.34405130 AlbanianGheg2


    I would like to focus more on his grandmother though...as I have written on her thread she is from Elis, from the easternmost area which historically received many migrants from the nearby westernmost part of Arcadia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gortynia). While I don't know much about the migratory history of that part of Arcadia from the middle ages onwards, I know that at least at some point in time there were some Arvanite settlements established there (mentioned on the first surviving Ottoman defter of the area, I think).
    This is her coords to compare and contrast if there is anything useful/interesting to be extracted.
    Code:
    Chris_paternal_grandmother_(Elis_Greece)_DODECAD_K12b,4.7,0,4.57,1.22,30.31,18.59,0,0,9.73,0,30.87,0
    Code:
    Chris_paternal_grandmother_(Elis_Greece)_EUROGENES_K13,22.69,9.72,22.79,9.8,27.71,5.11,0,0.44,0,0,0.43,0,1.3
    ( Her raw data comes from Myheritage, surely of poor coverage compared to other tests but how much different could her results really be, my friend's were VERY similar between his Myheritage and WGS tests )
    I guess the closest to his grandmother would be this Central Albania:

    Albania_Central,4.86,0,4.38,0,28.95,18.74,0,0,12.3 9,0,30.67,0

    Then we got yet another outlier from Coastal North-West Albania that in a PCA falls between Central and South Italy:

    AlbaniaNW_Coastal,5.92,0,1.53,0.62,32.06,19.68,0.2 2,0,7.84,0,32.12,0

  11. #411
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    613

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b-L283>Y52453

    Country: Kosovo



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Target: Albanian_Montenegro
    Distance: 628.0296% / 6.28029572
    73.2 Italian_Tuscany
    26.8 Polish_South


    Target: Albanian_Macedonia
    Distance: 819.6674% / 8.19667388
    83.6 Italian_Tuscany
    16.4 Polish_South


    Target: Albanian_Kosovo
    Distance: 666.5453% / 6.66545269
    82.4 Italian_Tuscany
    17.6 Polish_South


    Target: Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
    Distance: 682.5687% / 6.82568678
    100.0 Italian_Tuscany


    Target: Albanian_South_Albania
    Distance: 832.7333% / 8.32733295
    92.2 Italian_Tuscany
    7.8 Polish_South


    Target: Albanian_Central_Albania
    Distance: 821.3798% / 8.21379757
    96.2 Italian_Tuscany
    3.8 Polish_South



    Target: Albanian_North_Albania
    Distance: 797.5859% / 7.97585871
    84.0 Italian_Tuscany
    16.0 Polish_South
    Very funny. Those distances are so off they went to the moon and back. Those are the most senseless chosen components with the worst fits I have ever seen, nothing to do with "I tried something out" lol. Since this is meant seriously I would advice you to have a look at Albanian samples from various regions and see where they plot. There are different components that make Albanians plot the way they plot today and it definitely is not because of total continuity from those due to be published Iron Age Albanian samples.

  12. #412
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    1,231


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Very funny. Those distances are so off they went to the moon and back. Those are the most senseless chosen components with the worst fits I have ever seen, nothing to do with "I tried something out" lol. Since this is meant seriously I would advice you to have a look at Albanian samples from various regions and see where they plot. There are different components that make Albanians plot the way they plot today and it definitely is not because of total continuity from those due to be published Iron Age Albanian samples.
    Yes Albanians need a BGR_ IA like source source to make the fit tighter and the northern component reaches 20%. I have proposed using Tuscans as a component for the Balkanic ancestry of Albanians ages ago before the leaked PCA. (It also matched Germanic+Slavic YDna in Albanians and South-West Slavs). And it was only me to do so.

  13. #413
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-11-20
    Posts
    309

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-FT19186
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1c

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Yes Albanians need a BGR_ IA like source source to make the fit tighter and the northern component reaches 20%. I have proposed using Tuscans as a component for the Balkanic ancestry of Albanians ages ago before the leaked PCA. (It also matched Germanic+Slavic YDna in Albanians and South-West Slavs). And it was only me to do so.
    Albanians don't need any BGR_IA source. We already saw in the study about Serbia that the closest IA population to Albanians is IA Albania, not the Aegean-shifted or even 100% Aegean BGR_IA cluster. Modern Albanians can be modeled as western Balkans in the Roman era + minor Migration Period admixture with a great fit.

    The thread's hypothesis that southern Illyrians will be close to Mycenaeans has been proven entirely incorrect in the Serbian study. Southern Illyrians (IA Albania) are just a bit more southern shifted than IA Croatia and have no relation whatsoever to Mycenaeans.

  14. #414
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    687

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Albanians don't need any BGR_IA source. We already saw in the study about Serbia that the closest IA population to Albanians is IA Albania, not the Aegean-shifted or even 100% Aegean BGR_IA cluster. Modern Albanians can be modeled as western Balkans in the Roman era + minor Migration Period admixture with a great fit.

    The thread's hypothesis that southern Illyrians will be close to Mycenaeans has been proven entirely incorrect in the Serbian study. Southern Illyrians (IA Albania) are just a bit more southern shifted than IA Croatia and have no relation whatsoever to Mycenaeans.
    Have you been hit in the head recently? Mycenaean Greeks =/= Aegeans. They are noticeably different.

    Mycenean Greeks are quite similar to southern/central Italians, just like southern Illyrians.

    And this depends on which period are you talking about for southern Illyrians:

    Bronze Age
    Iron Age
    Late Antiquity

  15. #415
    Banned
    Join Date
    27-08-20
    Posts
    351

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z17107

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Yes Albanians need a BGR_ IA like source source to make the fit tighter and the northern component reaches 20%. I have proposed using Tuscans as a component for the Balkanic ancestry of Albanians ages ago before the leaked PCA. (It also matched Germanic+Slavic YDna in Albanians and South-West Slavs). And it was only me to do so.
    BGR_IA would cause a South-Western pull. What Albanians need is both a North-Eastern (higher Baltic in K13) and South-Eastern pull (Aegean, Anatolian, and Levantine).

    So far the closest ancient sample to North Albanians seems to be the Viminacium one from AD 220.

  16. #416
    Banned
    Join Date
    27-08-20
    Posts
    351

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z17107

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Have you been hit in the head recently? Mycenaean Greeks =/= Aegeans. They are noticeably different.

    Mycenean Greeks are quite similar to southern/central Italians, just like southern Illyrians.

    And this depends on which period are you talking about for southern Illyrians:

    Bronze Age
    Iron Age
    Late Antiquity
    Why did you feel the need to attack him?

    Could have just made your point and attach a PCA to prove it.

  17. #417
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,280


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    If I see another uncivil exchange here I'm going to close the thread.

  18. #418
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-11-20
    Posts
    309

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-FT19186
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1c

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Have you been hit in the head recently? Mycenaean Greeks =/= Aegeans. They are noticeably different.

    Mycenean Greeks are quite similar to southern/central Italians, just like southern Illyrians.

    And this depends on which period are you talking about for southern Illyrians:

    Bronze Age
    Iron Age
    Late Antiquity


    As everyone can see on any PCA, the position of southern Illyrians which will be just south of northern Illyrians from IA Croatia is not even remotely close to Mycenaeans. It's astonishing that someone would claim something like that. Saying that Mycenaeans are "close" to southern Illyrians is completely wrong

  19. #419
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,200

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post


    As everyone can see on any PCA, the position of southern Illyrians which will be just south of northern Illyrians from IA Croatia is not even remotely close to Mycenaeans. It's astonishing that someone would claim something like that. Saying that Mycenaeans are "close" to southern Illyrians is completely wrong

    so , are you now changing the term Southern Illyrians, which in the past where Illyrians from modern Montenegro, known as "Illyrian proper", to include Dalmatians as "southern Illyrians " ???

  20. #420
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    687

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post


    As everyone can see on any PCA, the position of southern Illyrians which will be just south of northern Illyrians from IA Croatia is not even remotely close to Mycenaeans. It's astonishing that someone would claim something like that. Saying that Mycenaeans are "close" to southern Illyrians is completely wrong
    Myceneans ARE south of Northern Illyrians. Wtf are you going on about? And where are Southern Illyrians in that chart?

    Like I said, the admixture of southern Illyrians will depend on the era. The Pre-Slavic Era/Proto-Albanian is clearly Mycenean-like



    You can argue about why or how they got to that point, but Roman Empire South Illyrians were clearly similar to southern/central Italians.

  21. #421
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    687

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    I love how this dude posts a chart discussing Southern Illyrians, but doesn't actually put Southern Illyrians in there.

  22. #422
    Banned
    Join Date
    27-08-20
    Posts
    351

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z17107

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I love how this dude posts a chart discussing Southern Illyrians, but doesn't actually put Southern Illyrians in there.
    EAD3E106-7924-440C-919C-EED34F6F992E.jpg

    Are you saying Mycenaeans are Northern of Aegeans? I never heard that to be honest. Can you provide some charts/pca?

  23. #423
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-11-20
    Posts
    309

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-FT19186
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a1c

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Myceneans ARE south of Northern Illyrians. Wtf are you going on about? And where are Southern Illyrians in that chart?

    Like I said, the admixture of southern Illyrians will depend on the era. The Pre-Slavic Era/Proto-Albanian is clearly Mycenean-like



    You can argue about why or how they got to that point, but Roman Empire South Illyrians were clearly similar to southern/central Italians.
    I'm not sure that you understand how south of northern Illyrians, Mycenaeans are. Mycenaeans are to "the south" of Illyrians in the same sense that .... BA Cypriots are to the south of northern Illyrians. This doesn't mean at all that there's anything in common between southern Illyrians and Mycenaeans, let alone "Proto-Albanians". The difference is huge.

    Basic components:

    Target: HRV_EIA
    Distance: 2.3379% / 0.02337930 | R4P
    57.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    35.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    7.6 WHG

    Target: GRC_Mycenaean
    Distance: 1.9922% / 0.01992157 | R4P
    67.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    20.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    11.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

    Even if you don't restrict components to 4, you don't get more than 0.6 WHG for Mycenaeans:

    Target: GRC_Mycenaean
    Distance: 1.8182% / 0.01818229
    67.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    16.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    10.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 Levant_Natufian
    1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
    0.6 WHG
    0.2 Han

    IA Albania which is just south of IA Croatia represents southern Illyrians. You can see the PCA in the threads about the new Serbian study. IA Albania has nothing to do with Mycenaeans. It's much more northern that Mycenaeans and its closest existing sample autosomally is HRV_Pop_Ca.

    Target: HRV_Pop_CA
    Distance: 1.8480% / 0.01848030 | R4P
    64.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    31.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    3.4 WHG

    Do you understand how big the difference is between Illyrians and Mycenaeans?

    It's pointless to argue that southern Illyrians looked anything like Mycenaeans and that Mycenaeans looked anything like the ancestors of Albanians. You will never find a study which will show that southern Illyrians were close to Mycenaeans.


  24. #424
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    237

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    That some modern Albanians and Greek Macedonians plot very close to Iron Age Albania and Macedonia seems very interesting in and of itself, regardless of any relationship to Mycenaeans. When looking at the Doliani Epirus medieval sample from the other leaked PCA, it gives an appearance of long-standing continuity in the region (waiting for more samples to confirm or refute). Peloponnesians are unsurprisingly more shifted toward Crete, on the whole.

  25. #425
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    1,231


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    That some modern Albanians and Greek Macedonians plot very close to Iron Age Albania and Macedonia seems very interesting in and of itself, regardless of any relationship to Mycenaeans. When looking at the Doliani Epirus medieval sample from the other leaked PCA, it gives an appearance of long-standing continuity in the region (waiting for more samples to confirm or refute). Peloponnesians are unsurprisingly more shifted toward Crete, on the whole.
    IA Macedonia is about North Macedonia. It is interesting because we distinguish Ancient Greeks genetically from every other group expect for Thracians. If Ancient Macedonians and Epirotes plot with Peloponnesians (ie. Empuries-Like samples) and they likely will, what does this mean?

Page 17 of 18 FirstFirst ... 715161718 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •