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Thread: Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

  1. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    I'm not sure that you understand how south of northern Illyrians, Mycenaeans are. Mycenaeans are to "the south" of Illyrians in the same sense that .... BA Cypriots are to the south of northern Illyrians. This doesn't mean at all that there's anything in common between southern Illyrians and Mycenaeans, let alone "Proto-Albanians". The difference is huge.

    Basic components:

    Target: HRV_EIA
    Distance: 2.3379% / 0.02337930 | R4P
    57.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    35.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    7.6 WHG

    Target: GRC_Mycenaean
    Distance: 1.9922% / 0.01992157 | R4P
    67.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    20.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    11.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

    Even if you don't restrict components to 4, you don't get more than 0.6 WHG for Mycenaeans:

    Target: GRC_Mycenaean
    Distance: 1.8182% / 0.01818229
    67.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    16.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    10.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 Levant_Natufian
    1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
    0.6 WHG
    0.2 Han

    IA Albania which is just south of IA Croatia represents southern Illyrians. You can see the PCA in the threads about the new Serbian study. IA Albania has nothing to do with Mycenaeans. It's much more northern that Mycenaeans and its closest existing sample autosomally is HRV_Pop_Ca.

    Target: HRV_Pop_CA
    Distance: 1.8480% / 0.01848030 | R4P
    64.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    31.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    3.4 WHG

    Do you understand how big the difference is between Illyrians and Mycenaeans?

    It's pointless to argue that southern Illyrians looked anything like Mycenaeans and that Mycenaeans looked anything like the ancestors of Albanians. You will never find a study which will show that southern Illyrians were close to Mycenaeans.

    Mate, can you stop and read what I wrote for a second? There is no one uniform group of "Illyrians". There are 2 things you have to take into account

    (1) Location

    (2) Time Period

    Even "Southern Illyrians" cover a period of 3,000 years, from 2500 BC to 500 AD. Their autosomal profile would have changed radically during those times.

    This thread is specifically talking about the Pre-Slavic Illyrians in Albania, i.e. the Proto-Albanians, which would be Iron Age Illyrians + Roman Imperial admixture. Even so, stop pretending like Northern and Southern Illyrians are equal. They cluster somewhat close, but are clearly apart.

    Now add Roman Imperial to the southern shifted Illyrians of the Iron Age. There is a reason why Macedonians cluster with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    IA Macedonia is about North Macedonia. It is interesting because we distinguish Ancient Greeks genetically from every other group expect for Thracians. If Ancient Macedonians and Epirotes plot with Peloponnesians (ie. Empuries-Like samples) and they likely will, what does this mean?
    The ancient Greeks so far are Empuries-like. Would love to know if some of the Iron Age Albania and Macedonia ancestry survived in situ more or less, after the Iron Age, or were people like Doliani medieval largely children of Slavs and Empuries-like people? Were any classical Macedonians like Iron Age Macedonia? Hope some answers come soon.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @enter_tain,

    I would strongly suggest that before you post you re-read what you have written and remove all curse words and insults. Otherwise you're going to continue to find your posts deleted.


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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    This thread is specifically talking about the Pre-Slavic Illyrians in Albania, i.e. the Proto-Albanians, which would be Iron Age Illyrians + Roman Imperial admixture. Even so, stop pretending like Northern and Southern Illyrians are equal. They cluster somewhat close, but are clearly apart.

    Now add Roman Imperial to the southern shifted Illyrians of the Iron Age. There is a reason why Macedonians cluster with them.
    About this I have a theory :). I wonder if you came around to understand what I meant during our last argument. Since last time I might not have conveyed my thoughts clearly.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Mate, can you stop and read what I wrote for a second? There is no one uniform group of "Illyrians". There are 2 things you have to take into account

    (1) Location

    (2) Time Period

    Even "Southern Illyrians" cover a period of 3,000 years, from 2500 BC to 500 AD. Their autosomal profile would have changed radically during those times.

    This thread is specifically talking about the Pre-Slavic Illyrians in Albania, i.e. the Proto-Albanians, which would be Iron Age Illyrians + Roman Imperial admixture. Even so, stop pretending like Northern and Southern Illyrians are equal. They cluster somewhat close, but are clearly apart.

    Now add Roman Imperial to the southern shifted Illyrians of the Iron Age. There is a reason why Macedonians cluster with them.
    Which Macedonians? The IA samples from Paeonia? It’s logical that Paeonians or nearby tribes should be very close to Southern Illyrians.

    Proto-Albanians without Migration Period admixture are still not that close to Mycenaeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Which Macedonians? The IA samples from Paeonia? It’s logical that Paeonians or nearby tribes should be very close to Southern Illyrians.

    Proto-Albanians without Migration Period admixture are still not that close to Mycenaeans.
    I love how this dude goes to "Paeonia" directly. Could you be more disingenuous? The south of modern day Macedonia was part of old Macedonia. But let's say it was Paeonia. Paeonia, that was essentially a puppet state of the Macedonians and neighbour, are NOT related to Macedonians but they are related to Illyrians?

    Stop grasping at straws. Illyrians, depending on the time period, shifted more and more south that by the end of the Roman Empire were comparable to southern or central Italians. We have proof of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    About this I have a theory :). I wonder if you came around to understand what I meant during our last argument. Since last time I might not have conveyed my thoughts clearly.
    No I don't, because we were actually talking about Roman Empire Illyrians. They are the perfect representation of Proto-Albanians.

    This dude is talking about Iron Age Illyrians before the Romans came over, which lacked any Roman Imperial admixture. There is no 1 Illyrian group. We have to add qualifiers like "Roman Empire", "Iron Age", or "Bronze Age" before them.

    Maybe I should have done a better job naming the thread, but if you read OP in detail I'm more concerned about the Pre-Slavic Illyrians, which were clearly a southern Italian/Mycenean-like group. You might point out that it's because of Roman Imperial admixture they became more southern, but I wasn't so much concerned about HOW they got there, as I was with WHERE they plotted on the PCA before Slavs.


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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I love how this dude goes to "Paeonia" directly. Could you be more disingenuous? The south of modern day Macedonia was part of old Macedonia. But let's say it was Paeonia. Paeonia, that was essentially a puppet state of the Macedonians and neighbour, are NOT related to Macedonians but they are related to Illyrians?

    Stop grasping at straws. Illyrians, depending on the time period, shifted more and more south that by the end of the Roman Empire were comparable to southern or central Italians. We have proof of this.
    Relax, nobody’s being hostile nor disingenuous.

    I’m not so resourceful with ancient samples. I only know of the recently leaked samples from modern North Macedonia which is not ancient Macedonia proper. Not even direct neighbours to proper ancient Macedonians because they had some other tribes in between.

    I always supported to idea that Southern Illyrians, Epirotes, Paeonians, and Makedonians will be genetically very close. It’s the Mycenaean part I don’t agree.

    As far as I know (I might be wrong), Myceaneans are close to Aegeans (IA or BA). If that is not correct, please for the 3rd time, post some results, pcas, charts, whatever you got. I’m mostly interested in Illyrians and Thracians but I’m also curious of Mycenaeans.

    What do you think of Empuries? Are they a good representative of Mycenaeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    All of this shows me that Olalde et al. 2021 was correct. Balkans IA (Tuscany to South Italy)spans the leaked PCA.
    Where is the leaked PCA from? And what do they mean by Macedonia? Greek Macedonia, or just any people living in territory of modern Republic of North Macedonia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by billyh View Post
    Where is the leaked PCA from? And what do they mean by Macedonia? Greek Macedonia, or just any people living in territory of modern Republic of North Macedonia?
    Illyrians were on a cline from IA Croatia to IA Albania. The distance is much smaller than the distances observed in smaller regions. A part of IA North Macedonia overlaps with IA Albania which is something completely normal as western and northern N. Macedonia were Illyrian. As can be seen on the PCA from the Serbian study, IA Albania was not close at all to the Aegean area, so it's even more distant to Mycenaeans.




    Southern Illyrians were nowhere close to Mycenaeans. It's absurd to even suggest such a thing when actual evidence for the opposite is abundant.

  11. #436
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    Without the paper, how is it known that Iron Age Macedonia corresponds only to North Macedonia and does not include Greek Macedonia? There seems to be a lot of genetic diversity in Iron Age Macedonia, and Iron Age Albania overlaps with only a part of it.

    It’s a good point that someone made, to be careful with PCA’s because correlation may not equal causation. Some modern Greek Macedonians for example may plot near Iron Age Macedonia because they share a similar ANE and steppe profile, but the ANE and steppe sources may not be the exactly or closely the same (e.g. medieval Slavs brought a lot steppe to the moderns, but ancients got it from a different source). Or perhaps some Albanians and Greek Macedonians are truly substantially descended from their geographic predecessors, and the PCA plotting is not coincidental.

    Considering the leaked ancient Greek transect PCA, Deep Mani should plot somewhere near or with the northernmost ancient Greek sample. Very interesting picture at least, to see some of the modern south Balkans plotting close to ancient regional populations.

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    Anyone wants to hazard a guess at which population x coordinates are for(g25)?

    x
    0.11907426125 ,0.143091755, 0.025005509375 ,-0.0163941265 ,0.0261132558375 ,-0.009156175125 ,0.00299491471225 ,0.003180877625, 0.003759638225 ,0.02776687075 ,0.0039157228375 ,0.00652633707375 ,-0.00795603847375 ,-0.0013258031 ,-0.0137537065 ,-0.000970341500375 ,0.0129163582, 0.0010389130525, 0.0053588578625 ,-0.001409251675 ,-0.0078592526375 ,0.0101371213875 ,0.0004949173125, 0.0018920822875 ,-0.002586066475


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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Anyone wants to hazard a guess at which population x coordinates are for(g25)?

    x
    0.11907426125 ,0.143091755, 0.025005509375 ,-0.0163941265 ,0.0261132558375 ,-0.009156175125 ,0.00299491471225 ,0.003180877625, 0.003759638225 ,0.02776687075 ,0.0039157228375 ,0.00652633707375 ,-0.00795603847375 ,-0.0013258031 ,-0.0137537065 ,-0.000970341500375 ,0.0129163582, 0.0010389130525, 0.0053588578625 ,-0.001409251675 ,-0.0078592526375 ,0.0101371213875 ,0.0004949173125, 0.0018920822875 ,-0.002586066475
    Is this modern or aDNA auDNA? Kind of reminds me of the R9669 sample from the Stable population structure paper?

    Edit: never mind that is not the case

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