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Thread: Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    This actually recapitulates what we know of Greek history and anthropology. Earliest "Greeks" of heavy EEF extraction (Minoans, etc.) becoming shifted eastward by various Bronze Age newcomers (there was a large change in skeletal remains during this time) and ending up resembling modern Cretans.

    Later on, various tribes from the Pindos and surrounds (who had a northwestern--probably Illyrian-like--shift) trickled in, sending the (mostly mainland) Greeks westward again. And a bit northward for good measure.

    I think even Gold Standard Empuries would find this beyond reproach.
    Iron Age Epirotes and Macedonians in particular were likely, IMO, more northern shifted compared to Mycenaean-like Peloponnesians but kinda like Apulians are to Sicilians not something drastic.

    As for resembling Aegean Islanders, I suspect the migrations during the Hellenistic and Imperial Rome taking the lion's share for the cause of the shift. Some additional minor Anatolian admixture came during the Byzantine period. And some even during the Classical Period, like in Attica. The samples that Davidski saw in Greece are "all over the place". (Probably like in Imperial Rome)

    Peloponnesians before the Slavic migration were undoubtedly closer to Aegean Islanders than to Mycenaeans. I think that will reduce the Slavic admixture by 5 points in Peloponnese.

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    According to this study that has yet to be published, the ancient Greek settlers of Campania brought “Aegean” ancestry. Not really sure what this means without seeing the results, but this ancestry was in Greeks at least as far back as the 8th century BC and lasted for a few centuries.

    https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...rce=repository

    F8DFA897-B8DA-4A59-895E-E1F0331A274E.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Iron Age Epirotes and Macedonians in particular were likely, IMO, more northern shifted compared to Mycenaean-like Peloponnesians but kinda like Apulians are to Sicilians not something drastic.

    As for resembling Aegean Islanders, I suspect the migrations during the Hellenistic and Imperial Rome taking the lion's share for the cause of the shift. Some additional minor Anatolian admixture came during the Byzantine period. And some even during the Classical Period, like in Attica. The samples that Davidski saw in Greece are "all over the place". (Probably like in Imperial Rome)

    Peloponnesians before the Slavic migration were undoubtedly closer to Aegean Islanders than to Mycenaeans. I think that will reduce the Slavic admixture by 5 points in Peloponnese.
    The issue with your hypothesis is that Croatia IA and Bulgaria IA existed after the BA Mycenaeans. And yet you argue that these Balkanians became Mycenaean-like, prior to the Slavs. While historically we only know of migrations North to South, not South to North. Also, if MBA Thessalians were to be admixed with Slavs in the Middle Ages, then modern Thessalians would plot were modern Croats are today. While in fact, compared to their MBA ancestors, Thessalians are pulled towards Mycenaeans/Cretans. Now, I am sure that Slavs were absorbed in Thessaly during the Middle Ages, but using BA Mycenaeans to make an estimates of that admixture seems incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    According to this study that has yet to be published, the ancient Greek settlers of Campania brought “Aegean” ancestry. Not really sure what this means without seeing the results, but this ancestry was in Greeks at least as far back as the 8th century BC and lasted for a few centuries.

    https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...rce=repository

    F8DFA897-B8DA-4A59-895E-E1F0331A274E.jpg
    Fwiw, the settlers were from Euboea, who were Ionian speakers

    "The earliest inhabitants were the Abantes, who brought a Bronze Ageculture from central Greece. In Classical literature the island had a number of names, including Macris, Doliche, Abantis, and Hellopia, the last derived from the Hellopes, who occupied the north. The centre was occupied by the Ionians and the south by the Dryopes. The Ionians excelled at navigating the sea and traded in swords; Ionian Chalcis led the colonizing movement to Italy and Sicily, while Eretria, just south of Chalcis, about 750–700 BCE led a large-scale colonization of the Thracian peninsula, later known as Chalcidice."


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    There is no Slavic or eastern european ancestry in Iron Age Croatians. OP post makes no sense. They shift towards Italics, Etrsucans and Celts. They were just way too northern to model modern Balkanites with them.Obviously Balkans received large amount of Imperial Roman and Anatolian like ancestry and that's why you can't model Albanians (or even Croats) with them alone.

    There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA. Daunians in Apulia who are arcehologically believed to come from Albania proper were similarly northern/western.
    Albos aren't that Illyrian obviously, they got loads of Thracian, Roman and Slavic admixture on top of that.

    No E-V13 was found in Illyrians either, neither in Croatia, Slovenia or southern Italy. This whole thread looks like a giant cope with the fact Paleo-Balkan people were heavily diluted even before Slavic arrival and that modern Balkanites are heavily mixed, including non Slavic speakers like Greeks and Albos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The issue with your hypothesis is that Croatia IA and Bulgaria IA existed after the BA Mycenaeans. And yet you argue that these Balkanians became Mycenaean-like, prior to the Slavs. While historically we only know of migrations North to South, not South to North. Also, if MBA Thessalians were to be admixed with Slavs in the Middle Ages, then modern Thessalians would plot were modern Croats are today. While in fact, compared to their MBA ancestors, Thessalians are pulled towards Mycenaeans/Cretans. Now, I am sure that Slavs were absorbed in Thessaly during the Middle Ages, but using BA Mycenaeans to make an estimates of that admixture seems incorrect.
    "Minoans" are just any member of a non-Indo-European people that had lived on Crete. We don't know what they called themselves, it is merely a name given to them by early 20th century archeologist, Sir Arthur Evans . However, according to my model it seems these non-Indo-European people who resemble "Minoans" have an ancestry that models well for the whole Balkans and beyond. Yamnaya accounts for the Indo-European spread into the Balkans. Perhaps there was a cline of Minoan and Steppe, as Clemente et al. 2021 may have us believe? We see some northern Balkans groups have a bit of ancestry that resembles that of Central Europe. However, for the most part, they look like other Balkanites, who received Slavic geneflow. The proxy for "Slavic" can be associate with Corded ware (at least partly*) here, as it is evident in other Slavic countries in the model.




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    ^^If Anatolia_BA is a good proxy for "Eastern Mediterranean" i.e. "Imperial Roman" as some people call it (which is wrong terminology imo), than the model is consistent with Oldale et al. 2021, which states that the "native" Balkan_IA did have a revival. Which was there after enriched by Slavic, (which is evident with corded ware's relation to Slavs).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    There is no Slavic or eastern european ancestry in Iron Age Croatians. OP post makes no sense. They shift towards Italics, Etrsucans and Celts. They were just way too northern to model modern Balkanites with them.Obviously Balkans received large amount of Imperial Roman and Anatolian like ancestry and that's why you can't model Albanians (or even Croats) with them alone.

    There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA. Daunians in Apulia who are arcehologically believed to come from Albania proper were similarly northern/western.
    Albos aren't that Illyrian obviously, they got loads of Thracian, Roman and Slavic admixture on top of that.

    No E-V13 was found in Illyrians either, neither in Croatia, Slovenia or southern Italy. This whole thread looks like a giant cope with the fact Paleo-Balkan people were heavily diluted even before Slavic arrival and that modern Balkanites are heavily mixed, including non Slavic speakers like Greeks and Albos.
    How do you explain that E-V13 outnumbers J2b in all Dinaric Slavs who apparently have most of their Ballkanic ancestry from assimilated Illyrians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    There is no Slavic or eastern european ancestry in Iron Age Croatians. OP post makes no sense. They shift towards Italics, Etrsucans and Celts. They were just way too northern to model modern Balkanites with them.Obviously Balkans received large amount of Imperial Roman and Anatolian like ancestry and that's why you can't model Albanians (or even Croats) with them alone.

    There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA. Daunians in Apulia who are arcehologically believed to come from Albania proper were similarly northern/western.
    Albos aren't that Illyrian obviously, they got loads of Thracian, Roman and Slavic admixture on top of that.


    No E-V13 was found in Illyrians either, neither in Croatia, Slovenia or southern Italy. This whole thread looks like a giant cope with the fact Paleo-Balkan people were heavily diluted even before Slavic arrival and that modern Balkanites are heavily mixed, including non Slavic speakers like Greeks and Albos.
    Do everyone who is reading you a favor, and quote precisely an archeological paper where it clearly states that Daunians came from Albania proper. I am very curious to read that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    How do you explain that E-V13 outnumbers J2b in all Dinaric Slavs who apparently have most of their Ballkanic ancestry from assimilated Illyrians?
    They don't have ancestry from assimilated Illyrians but from Vlachs. Illyrians ceased to exist long time before Slavs settled Balkans and assimilated former Roman citizens. Those peope were already diluted just like Italians. Looking at genetics plenty of east Med like admix entered Balkans during conquest and romanization of native tribes. There was also large movement of Vlachs from central and southern Balkans towards dinaric alps during Ottoman occupation. Lot of those got slavicized.

    Thracians look rich in E-V13 comapred to Illyrians so that would explain it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^If Anatolia_BA is a good proxy for "Eastern Mediterranean" i.e. "Imperial Roman" as some people call it (which is wrong terminology imo), than the model is consistent with Oldale et al. 2021, which states that the "native" Balkan_IA did have a revival. Which was there after enriched by Slavic, (which is evident with corded ware's relation to Slavs).
    Anyone who wants to discuss this just has to go back to your analysis using LaTene. You can see the "bounce back" clearly in the Iron Age sample.

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    ^^when I get a chance I'm making a new one

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA.
    Have you read any of the stuff posted? We have samples from Illyrian Montenegro years ago. One was almost fully EEF (no CHG) in the Late Bronze Age. And another recent arrival in the Iron Age that was 50% EEF, 50% Afasenievo (which had a noticeable amount of EEF).

    The southern Balkans were very heavily EEF. And this makes sense this being a Neolithic bridge between Europe and Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxCRO View Post
    Thracians look rich in E-V13 comapred to Illyrians so that would explain it.
    Again, have you read anything in the thread, or do you just start spamming? Thracians were already 25% CHG. You add Slavic DNA to that it goes upwards of 35% CHG. Those populations can't be ancestral to a Western Balkans people like Albanians and Northern Greeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    This actually recapitulates what we know of Greek history and anthropology. Earliest "Greeks" of heavy EEF extraction (Minoans, etc.) becoming shifted eastward by various Bronze Age newcomers (there was a large change in skeletal remains during this time) and ending up resembling modern Cretans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post

    Later on, various tribes from the Pindos and surrounds (who had a northwestern--probably Illyrian-like--shift) trickled in, sending the (mostly mainland) Greeks westward again. And a bit northward for good measure.

    I think even Gold Standard Empuries would find this beyond reproach.


    Yeah everything points to a more "western" tint for the earlier Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Fwiw, the settlers were from Euboea, who were Ionian speakers

    "The earliest inhabitants were the Abantes, who brought a Bronze Ageculture from central Greece. In Classical literature the island had a number of names, including Macris, Doliche, Abantis, and Hellopia, the last derived from the Hellopes, who occupied the north. The centre was occupied by the Ionians and the south by the Dryopes. The Ionians excelled at navigating the sea and traded in swords; Ionian Chalcis led the colonizing movement to Italy and Sicily, while Eretria, just south of Chalcis, about 750–700 BCE led a large-scale colonization of the Thracian peninsula, later known as Chalcidice."
    Yeah, Greeks have divisions amongst themselves genetically. You have the Doric-speaking areas, and the Cypriot-like/Aegean areas. Which makes sense because Anatolia was showing those CHG markers around the time the Eastern/Southeastern Balkans started showing it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Have you read any of the stuff posted? We have samples from Illyrian Montenegro years ago. One was almost fully EEF (no CHG) in the Late Bronze Age. And another recent arrival in the Iron Age that was 50% EEF, 50% Afasenievo (which had a noticeable amount of EEF).

    The southern Balkans were very heavily EEF. And this makes sense this being a Neolithic bridge between Europe and Anatolia.
    Those Montenegro samples are not Illyrian mate. The EEF is paleo-Balkans, thus a homogeneous EEF sample by definition can't be Illyrian. But I am open to you providing a source of them being Illyrian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Have you read any of the stuff posted? We have samples from Illyrian Montenegro years ago. One was almost fully EEF (no CHG) in the Late Bronze Age. And another recent arrival in the Iron Age that was 50% EEF, 50% Afasenievo (which had a noticeable amount of EEF).

    The southern Balkans were very heavily EEF. And this makes sense this being a Neolithic bridge between Europe and Anatolia.
    Someone who is fully EEF is not an Illyrian do you realize what you sound like? Illyrians were IE people not EEF. Your dream of a E-V13 rich mycenean like Southern shifted "Illyrians" is pseudo science and laughable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Someone who is fully EEF is not an Illyrian do you realize what you sound like? Illyrians were IE people not EEF. Your dream of a E-V13 rich mycenean like Southern shifted "Illyrians" is pseudo science and laughable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Those Montenegro samples are not Illyrian mate. The EEF is paleo-Balkans, thus a homogeneous EEF sample by definition can't be Illyrian. But I am open to you providing a source of them being Illyrian.
    Some of you truly need to learn how to read. I said from "Illyrian Montenegro". That's a place/period, not a person. There are Asian and African samples in Rome. It doesn't mean they're Roman.

    The point I was making is to say that southwestern Balkans had very EEF-heavy populations with little/almost no CHG/Iranian Neolithic components, and these populations were certainly incorporated genetically into later populations in that area.

    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Your dream of a E-V13 rich mycenean like Southern shifted "Illyrians" is pseudo science and laughable.
    I never said anything about "EV-13 rich". They would have some EV-13, but it won't be the majority. I specifically stated high EV-13 in Kosovars is just a recent genetic bottleneck/founder effect.

    As for "southern shifted Illyrians", that's a fact not an opinion. The Jirecek line cuts through Albania. You don't go from Mycenean Greeks to Central European Illyrians in 5-10 km difference.

    Northern Greeks and Albanians cluster for a reason. They are almost the same population genetically. Your fetish for a Central Balkans/Dardania or whatever is the pseudoscience here.

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    I don't want to repeat myself but E-V13 is more logical to be quite high in Kosovo among Kosov Albanians than J2b2-L283 who seem to be explicitely tied to Krasniqi and Gashi Gurit mostly. You don't see any independent branch of it unlike with E-V13 which is present among Kosovo Serbs as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I don't want to repeat myself but E-V13 is more logical to be quite high in Kosovo among Kosov Albanians than J2b2-L283 who seem to be explicitely tied to Krasniqi and Gashi Gurit mostly. You don't see any independent branch of it unlike with E-V13 which is present among Kosovo Serbs as well.
    Albanians, especially northern Albanians, were very patriarchal/tribal. As such the %YDNA-ratios would reflect it. There's been countless studies on why how each tribe (Berisha, etc...) affected the Y-DNA pool.

    Trying to find the same exact ratio of %YDNA thousands of years ago is an idiotic attempt at pseudoscience. Whatever they were thousands of years ago, they've changed in ratio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Albanians, especially northern Albanians, were very patriarchal/tribal. As such the %YDNA-ratios would reflect it. There's been countless studies on why how each tribe (Berisha, etc...) affected the Y-DNA pool.

    Trying to find the same exact ratio of %YDNA thousands of years ago is an idiotic attempt at pseudoscience. Whatever they were thousands of years ago, they've changed in ratio.
    I don't know if you read yourself how dumb you sound. You stated E-V13 is due to huge bottleneck and i am saying the same can be applied to J2b2-L283. You picked Berisha, fine. But this tribe was the strongest Albanian tribe in Middle Ages, in fact its Sopi sibling was quite strong as well in Nish and Vranje but extremely defragmented into smaller families with no ties between each other, there was a rise of this particular subclade in Kosovo, Nish, Vranje but the initial rise happened due to Sopis, then latter with Berishas. All, in all, they don't represent majority of Kosovar E-V13 as was originally hinted by Dienekes(i bought his writing long time ago, but it resulted a cherry-pick in the end), since you like to take Dienekes theories why don't you take his theory that Albanians don't descend from Illyrians as well.

    I think it has been discussed several times, there was a major fall in Albanian Y-DNA/subclades during and right after Early Middle Ages (Justinian Plague, various migrations and wars resulting with Slavic invasion) which might have caused a lot of different subclades to fall down and surviving ones to rise back.
    Last edited by Hawk; 30-01-22 at 01:50.

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    [QUOTE=Hawk;639587]I don't know if you read yourself how dumb you sound. /QUOTE]

    I'd say worry about yourself. Your level of grammar has that covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    can be applied to J2b2-L283.


    The same CAN'T be applied for that, because we know Illyrians = J2B2-L283 heavy people. That is a fact.

    EV-13 has a huge ass bottleneck that is a direct result of tribes like Berisha expanding a few hundred years back into Kosovo. Nothing to do with Thracians, Dacians, or whatever other b.s. you and some here have concocted.

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    The entire Balkans today has a baseline EV-13 from 10% to 25%. Doesn't matter if it's Slavs, Greeks, Albanians, etc... The only exception is Kosovo, who are mostly a "new population". No Y-DNA ratios in Kosovo are representative of any ancient "Proto" population.

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    I mean all we are saying is we cant take those EEF Montenegro samples as representative of Illyrians. But more importantly IIRC there is only two samples from one site in Montenegro, meaning the sample size right now is not representative of potential BA populations in the area. Certainly the upcoming paper will help, but even that one has few samples from Bosnia and Montenegro, with a few more from Serbia. At least Croatia will add some 80+ more samples (on top of 100 or more that they have already provided), if anything I applaud their academies of history/anthropology for actually doing their job beyond just being a branch of state propaganda as pretty much everywhere else in the Balkans.

    PS: Last I heard, South Albanian BA samples have not been tested yet. Albanian archeologists not having the expertise in auDNA are cooperating with foreign labs to get the results. Sometimes in the future we should be getting samples from North Albania (rumored R1b MBA, and L283 LBA) and South Albania (still not tested). Before that I would really not be so sure about any claims about southern Illyrians(despite having my own hypotheses). But regarding Daunians, the tests were so low res that even once we have Albanian samples and the current Croatian samples we wont be able to tell where they hailed from. I guess we can take comfort in the fact that if Albanian L283s are anyway similar to Croatian L283s autosomal we are at least talking about a homogenous population spanning the Adriatic triangle. That remains to be seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    The same CAN'T be applied for that, because we know Illyrians = J2B2-L283 heavy people. That is a fact.

    EV-13 has a huge ass bottleneck that is a direct result of tribes like Berisha expanding a few hundred years back into Kosovo. Nothing to do with Thracians, Dacians, or whatever other b.s. you and some here have concocted.
    You are obviously a sock-puppet account of that Kosovar kid lol. Anyway, it's not us saying Daco-Thracians were heavy E-V13, it's most of the anthofora people who already are mentioning and aknowleding, it's just couple of you J2b2-L283 Kosovars with dozens of sock-puppet accounts over the board who are over-reacting.

    I say even Central Balkan people like Dardanii, Paeonii and Encheleii were E-V13 heavy as well. But, that's up to aDNA to confirm it.

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