Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

[Archetype0ne]

Have you read any of the stuff posted? We have samples from Illyrian Montenegro years ago. One was almost fully EEF (no CHG) in the Late Bronze Age. And another recent arrival in the Iron Age that was 50% EEF, 50% Afasenievo (which had a noticeable amount of EEF).

The southern Balkans were very heavily EEF. And this makes sense this being a Neolithic bridge between Europe and Anatolia.

Those Montenegro samples are not Illyrian mate. The EEF is paleo-Balkans, thus a homogeneous EEF sample by definition can't be Illyrian. But I am open to you providing a source of them being Illyrian.

 

[mount123]

Have you read any of the stuff posted? We have samples from Illyrian Montenegro years ago. One was almost fully EEF (no CHG) in the Late Bronze Age. And another recent arrival in the Iron Age that was 50% EEF, 50% Afasenievo (which had a noticeable amount of EEF).

The southern Balkans were very heavily EEF. And this makes sense this being a Neolithic bridge between Europe and Anatolia.

Someone who is fully EEF is not an Illyrian do you realize what you sound like? Illyrians were IE people not EEF. Your dream of a E-V13 rich mycenean like Southern shifted "Illyrians" is pseudo science and laughable.

 

[enter_tain]

Someone who is fully EEF is not an Illyrian do you realize what you sound like? Illyrians were IE people not EEF. Your dream of a E-V13 rich mycenean like Southern shifted "Illyrians" is pseudo science and laughable.

Those Montenegro samples are not Illyrian mate. The EEF is paleo-Balkans, thus a homogeneous EEF sample by definition can't be Illyrian. But I am open to you providing a source of them being Illyrian.

Some of you truly need to learn how to read. I said from "Illyrian Montenegro". That's a place/period, not a person. There are Asian and African samples in Rome. It doesn't mean they're Roman.

The point I was making is to say that southwestern Balkans had very EEF-heavy populations with little/almost no CHG/Iranian Neolithic components, and these populations were certainly incorporated genetically into later populations in that area.

Your dream of a E-V13 rich mycenean like Southern shifted "Illyrians" is pseudo science and laughable.

I never said anything about "EV-13 rich". They would have some EV-13, but it won't be the majority. I specifically stated high EV-13 in Kosovars is just a recent genetic bottleneck/founder effect.

As for "southern shifted Illyrians", that's a fact not an opinion. The Jirecek line cuts through Albania. You don't go from Mycenean Greeks to Central European Illyrians in 5-10 km difference.

Northern Greeks and Albanians cluster for a reason. They are almost the same population genetically. Your fetish for a Central Balkans/Dardania or whatever is the pseudoscience here.

 

[Hawk]

I don't want to repeat myself but E-V13 is more logical to be quite high in Kosovo among Kosov Albanians than J2b2-L283 who seem to be explicitely tied to Krasniqi and Gashi Gurit mostly. You don't see any independent branch of it unlike with E-V13 which is present among Kosovo Serbs as well.

 

[enter_tain]

I don't want to repeat myself but E-V13 is more logical to be quite high in Kosovo among Kosov Albanians than J2b2-L283 who seem to be explicitely tied to Krasniqi and Gashi Gurit mostly. You don't see any independent branch of it unlike with E-V13 which is present among Kosovo Serbs as well.

Albanians, especially northern Albanians, were very patriarchal/tribal. As such the %YDNA-ratios would reflect it. There's been countless studies on why how each tribe (Berisha, etc...) affected the Y-DNA pool.

Trying to find the same exact ratio of %YDNA thousands of years ago is an idiotic attempt at pseudoscience. Whatever they were thousands of years ago, they've changed in ratio.

 

[Hawk]

Albanians, especially northern Albanians, were very patriarchal/tribal. As such the %YDNA-ratios would reflect it. There's been countless studies on why how each tribe (Berisha, etc...) affected the Y-DNA pool.

Trying to find the same exact ratio of %YDNA thousands of years ago is an idiotic attempt at pseudoscience. Whatever they were thousands of years ago, they've changed in ratio.

I don't know if you read yourself how dumb you sound. You stated E-V13 is due to huge bottleneck and i am saying the same can be applied to J2b2-L283. You picked Berisha, fine. But this tribe was the strongest Albanian tribe in Middle Ages, in fact its Sopi sibling was quite strong as well in Nish and Vranje but extremely defragmented into smaller families with no ties between each other, there was a rise of this particular subclade in Kosovo, Nish, Vranje but the initial rise happened due to Sopis, then latter with Berishas. All, in all, they don't represent majority of Kosovar E-V13 as was originally hinted by Dienekes(i bought his writing long time ago, but it resulted a cherry-pick in the end), since you like to take Dienekes theories why don't you take his theory that Albanians don't descend from Illyrians as well.

I think it has been discussed several times, there was a major fall in Albanian Y-DNA/subclades during and right after Early Middle Ages (Justinian Plague, various migrations and wars resulting with Slavic invasion) which might have caused a lot of different subclades to fall down and surviving ones to rise back.

 

[enter_tain]

I don't know if you read yourself how dumb you sound. /QUOTE]

I'd say worry about yourself. Your level of grammar has that covered.

can be applied to J2b2-L283.

The same CAN'T be applied for that, because we know Illyrians = J2B2-L283 heavy people. That is a fact.

EV-13 has a huge ass bottleneck that is a direct result of tribes like Berisha expanding a few hundred years back into Kosovo. Nothing to do with Thracians, Dacians, or whatever other b.s. you and some here have concocted.

 

[enter_tain]

The entire Balkans today has a baseline EV-13 from 10% to 25%. Doesn't matter if it's Slavs, Greeks, Albanians, etc... The only exception is Kosovo, who are mostly a "new population". No Y-DNA ratios in Kosovo are representative of any ancient "Proto" population.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I mean all we are saying is we cant take those EEF Montenegro samples as representative of Illyrians. But more importantly IIRC there is only two samples from one site in Montenegro, meaning the sample size right now is not representative of potential BA populations in the area. Certainly the upcoming paper will help, but even that one has few samples from Bosnia and Montenegro, with a few more from Serbia. At least Croatia will add some 80+ more samples (on top of 100 or more that they have already provided), if anything I applaud their academies of history/anthropology for actually doing their job beyond just being a branch of state propaganda as pretty much everywhere else in the Balkans.

PS: Last I heard, South Albanian BA samples have not been tested yet. Albanian archeologists not having the expertise in auDNA are cooperating with foreign labs to get the results. Sometimes in the future we should be getting samples from North Albania (rumored R1b MBA, and L283 LBA) and South Albania (still not tested). Before that I would really not be so sure about any claims about southern Illyrians(despite having my own hypotheses). But regarding Daunians, the tests were so low res that even once we have Albanian samples and the current Croatian samples we wont be able to tell where they hailed from. I guess we can take comfort in the fact that if Albanian L283s are anyway similar to Croatian L283s autosomal we are at least talking about a homogenous population spanning the Adriatic triangle. That remains to be seen.

 

[Hawk]

The same CAN'T be applied for that, because we know Illyrians = J2B2-L283 heavy people. That is a fact.

EV-13 has a huge ass bottleneck that is a direct result of tribes like Berisha expanding a few hundred years back into Kosovo. Nothing to do with Thracians, Dacians, or whatever other b.s. you and some here have concocted.

You are obviously a sock-puppet account of that Kosovar kid lol. Anyway, it's not us saying Daco-Thracians were heavy E-V13, it's most of the anthofora people who already are mentioning and aknowleding, it's just couple of you J2b2-L283 Kosovars with dozens of sock-puppet accounts over the board who are over-reacting.

I say even Central Balkan people like Dardanii, Paeonii and Encheleii were E-V13 heavy as well. But, that's up to aDNA to confirm it.

 

[enter_tain]

I mean all we are saying is we cant take those EEF Montenegro samples as representative of Illyrians. But more importantly IIRC there is only two samples from one site in Montenegro, meaning the sample size right now is not representative of potential BA populations in the area. Certainly the upcoming paper will help, but even that one has few samples from Bosnia and Montenegro, with a few more from Serbia. At least Croatia will add some 80+ more samples (on top of 100 or more that they have already provided), if anything I applaud their academies of history/anthropology for actually doing their job beyond just being a branch of state propaganda as pretty much everywhere else in the Balkans.

PS: Last I heard, South Albanian BA samples have not been tested yet. Albanian archeologists not having the expertise in auDNA are cooperating with foreign labs to get the results. Sometimes in the future we should be getting samples from North Albania (rumored R1b MBA, and L283 LBA) and South Albania (still not tested). Before that I would really not be so sure about any claims about southern Illyrians(despite having my own hypotheses). But regarding Daunians, the tests were so low res that even once we have Albanian samples and the current Croatian samples we wont be able to tell where they hailed from. I guess we can take comfort in the fact that if Albanian L283s are anyway similar to Croatian L283s autosomal we are at least talking about a homogenous population spanning the Adriatic triangle. That remains to be seen.

For the last time. No one said they're "representative of Illyrians". Illyrians are a mixture of steppe heavy Proto-Illyrians and native Balkanic EEFs/HG. No one knows when they homogenized. It's not like they mixed immediately with the locals. But these are the heavy "EEFS" of the Balkans, and they survived until very late.

This phenomenon has been discussed ad nauseum, even by people like David Reich. In the beginning you have complete population displacement/replacement, and over time the local DNA sips into the invader DNA. Southern Illyrians were without a doubt closer to Greeks genetically, because guess what? They were living side by side for thousands of years.

A lot of Illyrian tribes were considered straight up Hellenized, and populations like Epirus/Macedonia even by historical accounts absorbed/admixed with neighbouring Illyrians.

 

[enter_tain]

Imagine thinking these are like 2 completely different races of people or something. They got into alliances, their nobility intermarried, etc...

Pyrrhus of Epirus was raised by Illyrians. Philip of Macedonia lived in Illyria as a child.

 

[Hawk]

You are exaggerating lol, in Iron Age, all Balkan populations were stabilized and were Italian-like. I doubt they were separate race at all. Epirotans/Macedonians probably had quite some Steppe, not as much as more Northern Balkan tribes but still.

 

[enter_tain]

You are exaggerating lol, in Iron Age, all Balkan populations were stabilized and were Italian-like. I doubt they were separate race at all. Epirotans/Macedonians probably had quite some Steppe, not as much as more Northern Balkan tribes but still.

I'm not exaggerating. We have samples from the same site in Montenegro. They were very different and only separated by a few hundred years.

And it's not true that "all Balkans" were the same. Once you go to Thracia/Dacia they become more eastern CHG-heavy, unlike western Balkans who were more EEF-heavy.

 

[Hawk]

I'm not exaggerating. We have samples from the same site in Montenegro. They were very different and only separated by a few hundred years.

We don't, that sample was low resolution if i remember correctly and nowhere is to be found. Otherwise Davidski will put in his G25 list.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I think there is too much emotions here for no reason.

While modern Albanians and mainland Greeks are almost indistinguishable autosomaly, there is contention if Illyrians and Ancient Greeks had a similar connection.
For one we have a couple of autosomal profiles from the period. We have modern North Italian like profiles. Then we have a blip of modern Albanian-Greek admixture with the Logkas samples in Thessaly in the BA. Then we have a third profile which is Cyprus East-Med / Anatolian / Levant leaning.

The Lazaridis Minoan and Mycenean paper using formal f-stats came to the conclusions that Italians (North, and some South, Greeks, Albanians and Cypriots) had continuity with Minoans and Myceneans. This was demonstrated in a far more superior model that simple admixture calculators. So I will take Lazaridis analysis over amateur tools (as much as I like them). But at the same time just as I, using admixture calculators have my closest match in EBA Maros, and EBA Logkas samples, does not mean a 1:1 continuity, as adding 5 to 1 then removing 4 and then 1, would lead to 1 without some "pure" continuity. What we can say though, is that profiles such as Logkas, which is the closest to modern Greeks/Albanians were being admixed since EBA. What we cant say for sure with current evidence is that Ancient Greeks and Ancient Illyrians were close autosomally, although it remains an attractive hypothesis when considering a yet to be analyzed southern Illyrian population.

Distance to:	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.03366022	Moldovan:MOL-024
0.03389957	Albanian:AL82
0.03429604	Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP8
0.03464362	Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144
0.03494550	Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11
0.03503775	Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162
0.03528218	Macedonian:Macedonian8
0.03540763	Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11
0.03584904	Bulgarian:BulgarianD6
0.03639460	Italian_Veneto:ALP273
0.03647385	Rumelia_East:642
0.03676060	Romanian:G421
0.03716220	Italian_Northeast:ALP346
0.03750364	Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136
0.03750990	French_Provence:S_34
0.03751265	Italian_Lombardy:ALP288
0.03776418	Albanian:AL9
0.03816617	Italian_Veneto:ALP022
0.03850786	Italian_Veneto:ALP209
0.03854452	Italian_Northeast:KF2700960
0.03858363	Greek_Macedonia:680
0.03861178	Italian_Veneto:ALP249
0.03882728	French_Provence:S_5
0.03887091	Italian_Northeast:ALP093
0.03942631	Greek_Macedonia:674

Distance to:	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.02373942	Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany98
0.02421801	Italian_Tuscany:NA20505
0.02475681	Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144
0.02493173	Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136
0.02506172	Italian_UmbriaG04
0.02610302	French_Corsica:CorsicaS13808
0.02650583	Italian_Marche:MarACO060D
0.02678056	Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont43
0.02708030	French_Corsica:corsica29008
0.02720604	Italian_Tuscany:MURLO114
0.02745049	Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany74
0.02747902	Italian_LazioG28
0.02766527	Italian_Tuscany:VO65
0.02772744	Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11
0.02781530	Italian_Marche:MarADC050D
0.02786572	Italian_Veneto:ALP209
0.02826447	Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany38
0.02846929	Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162
0.02856948	Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany27
0.02922166	Italian_Liguria:ALP099
0.02929363	Italian_Marche:MarADG030D
0.02951793	Italian_Lombardy:BGD31
0.02954145	Greek_Peloponnese:630
0.02958448	Italian_UmbriaG08
0.02968565	Italian_Marche:MarABG010D

There is not to much to get aggravated over.

 

[enter_tain]

I think there is too much emotions here for no reason.

While modern Albanians and mainland Greeks are almost indistinguishable autosomaly, there is contention if Illyrians and Ancient Greeks had a similar connection.
For one we have a couple of autosomal profiles from the period. We have modern North Italian like profiles. Then we have a blip of modern Albanian-Greek admixture with the Logkas samples in Thessaly in the BA. Then we have a third profile which is Cyprus East-Med / Anatolian / Levant leaning.

The Lazaridis Minoan and Mycenean paper using formal f-stats came to the conclusions that Italians (North, and some South, Greeks, Albanians and Cypriots) had continuity with Minoans and Myceneans. This was demonstrated in a far more superior model that simple admixture calculators. So I will take Lazaridis analysis over amateur tools (as much as I like them). But at the same time just as I, using admixture calculators have my closest match in EBA Maros, and EBA Logkas samples, does not mean a 1:1 continuity, as adding 5 to 1 then removing 4 and then 1, would lead to 1 without some "pure" continuity. What we can say though, is that profiles such as Logkas, which is the closest to modern Greeks/Albanians were being admixed since EBA. What we cant say for sure with current evidence is that Ancient Greeks and Ancient Illyrians were close autosomally, although it remains an attractive hypothesis when considering a yet to be analyzed southern Illyrian population.

Distance to:	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.03366022	Moldovan:MOL-024
0.03389957	Albanian:AL82
0.03429604	Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP8
0.03464362	Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144
0.03494550	Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11
0.03503775	Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162
0.03528218	Macedonian:Macedonian8
0.03540763	Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11
0.03584904	Bulgarian:BulgarianD6
0.03639460	Italian_Veneto:ALP273
0.03647385	Rumelia_East:642
0.03676060	Romanian:G421
0.03716220	Italian_Northeast:ALP346
0.03750364	Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136
0.03750990	French_Provence:S_34
0.03751265	Italian_Lombardy:ALP288
0.03776418	Albanian:AL9
0.03816617	Italian_Veneto:ALP022
0.03850786	Italian_Veneto:ALP209
0.03854452	Italian_Northeast:KF2700960
0.03858363	Greek_Macedonia:680
0.03861178	Italian_Veneto:ALP249
0.03882728	French_Provence:S_5
0.03887091	Italian_Northeast:ALP093
0.03942631	Greek_Macedonia:674

Distance to:	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.02373942	Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany98
0.02421801	Italian_Tuscany:NA20505
0.02475681	Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144
0.02493173	Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136
0.02506172	Italian_UmbriaG04
0.02610302	French_Corsica:CorsicaS13808
0.02650583	Italian_Marche:MarACO060D
0.02678056	Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont43
0.02708030	French_Corsica:corsica29008
0.02720604	Italian_Tuscany:MURLO114
0.02745049	Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany74
0.02747902	Italian_LazioG28
0.02766527	Italian_Tuscany:VO65
0.02772744	Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11
0.02781530	Italian_Marche:MarADC050D
0.02786572	Italian_Veneto:ALP209
0.02826447	Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany38
0.02846929	Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162
0.02856948	Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany27
0.02922166	Italian_Liguria:ALP099
0.02929363	Italian_Marche:MarADG030D
0.02951793	Italian_Lombardy:BGD31
0.02954145	Greek_Peloponnese:630
0.02958448	Italian_UmbriaG08
0.02968565	Italian_Marche:MarABG010D

There is not to much to get aggravated over.

There is much to get aggravated over, because your arguments are non-sensical, and lacking historical context or logic. All Balkan populations increased in Steppe ancestry, during the Middle Ages. Meaning, if modern Albanians have 20% or whatever steppe ancestry, it should have been lower for Proto-Albanians. Something like 10-15%.

Please find me 1 population that is 10-15% steppe in the central or northern Balkans with no/little extra CHG. This is just basic logic that they descended from a population very similar to Myceneans, which would have only existed in the southwestern Balkans, I.E. where Illyrians/Albanoi/Taulanti/Dardani lived.

No other population makes sense to be ancestral to Albanians. Thraco-Dacians don't make sense autosomally, geographically OR linguistically. This is a very Mycenean-like population, that would have been close to guess what? The Myceneans.

 

[enter_tain]

I love the arguments here. The southern Illyrians that were Hellenized were high in steppe ancestry like Croatia IA, and then Proto-Albanians that came from the north were southern/EEF shifted.

So the local northern populations got replaced by a southern population from the NORTH that resembled the Greeks. This is mass stupidity. Populations that live next to each for thousands of years become genetically similar. There is nothing to argue.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I would advice relaxing a bit, all that anger is bad for your health.

Also, check the Maros samples (L283, Z2103 specifically) autosomal makeups, then come again about "All Balkan populations increased in Steppe ancestry, during the Middle Ages." Things are not as simple as you think they are, and not as linear either. Modern Albanian have ~35% Steppe, while the Maros samples I mentioned where 1/3+ Steppe. If anything during Imperial times there has been plenty of papers demonstrating an increase in East Med / Anatolian / Levantine ancestry (Danubian Limes Paper, Roman and Etruscan papers), indirectly lowering the Steppe pre MA, without which the increase you claim in the MA would not even be a thing.

About the rest, I think you are arguing with a phantom, most of the points you are contesting I did not even make, although out of decency I corrected you on the above. Not sure what your problem is, but I hope it gets better.

 

[enter_tain]

I would advice relaxing a bit, all that anger is bad for your health.

Also, check the Maros samples (L283, Z2103 specifically) autosomal makeups, then come again about "All Balkan populations increased in Steppe ancestry, during the Middle Ages." Things are not as simple as you think they are, and not as linear either. Modern Albanian have ~35% Steppe, while the Maros samples I mentioned where 1/3+ Steppe. If anything during Imperial times there has been plenty of papers demonstrating an increase in East Med / Anatolian / Levantine ancestry (Danubian Limes Paper, Roman and Etruscan papers), indirectly lowering the Steppe pre MA, without which the increase you claim in the MA would not even be a thing.

About the rest, I think you are arguing with a phantom, most of the points you are contesting I did not even make, although out of decency I corrected you on the above. Not sure what your problem is, but I hope it gets better.

I'm not "angry" but annoyed at reading 90% trash and 10% useful posts. It's like you have to sift through a bunch of garbage to read anything decent.

Albanians do not have 35% steppe ancestry. That's nonsense. Where are you getting this from? Are we talking about pure Yamnaya/WSH or EEF -admixed like Sintashta.

Also, check the Maros samples (L283, Z2103 specifically) autosomal makeups, then come again about "All Balkan populations increased in Steppe ancestry, during the Middle Ages." Things are not as simple as you think they are

Things ARE that simple. The Middle Ages are from 400 to 1400 and it's been mentioned countless times that during that time Balkans have increased Slavic/Gothic that are more heavily in steppe DNA.

Greeks were mentioned to be something like "33% Polish-like" from one study, and the latest papers have mentioned at least 20% Slavic ancestry and it'd be higher if they did a proper model. That's increasing steppe. I have no idea who this "Maros" is, but all the Danubian papers are clearly not ancestral to Albanians autosomally.