Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

No massive regional differences between old Macedonians and old Peloponnesians and also no massive difference between Etruscans and Camapanians. I don't think Southern Illyrians will differ much from northern ones only slightly. I used to have that belief but not anymore.
 
No massive regional differences between old Macedonians and old Peloponnesians and also no massive difference between Etruscans and Camapanians. I don't think Southern Illyrians will differ much from northern ones only slightly. I used to have that belief but not anymore.

You still don't understand the difference between Proto-Illyrians and Illyrians proper that lived for at least 1500 years next to the Greeks. It's the difference between the original steppe PIE people and the current Indo-Europeans. Southern Illyrians can't live for 1500 years next to those northern Greeks, intermix with them, then just be a "different" population.

Albanians are without 100% doubt ROOTED to northern/western Greeks genetically. They are almost the same population. To claim they originated anywhere but the territory of Albania is idiocy.

80lcWDp.jpg


All those in red are Hellenic/Hellenized tribes. They surrounded southern Illyrians from almost all sides.

6D9OZEX.png
 
You still don't understand the difference between Proto-Illyrians and Illyrians proper that lived for at least 1500 years next to the Greeks. It's the difference between the original steppe PIE people and the current Indo-Europeans. Southern Illyrians can't live for 1500 years next to those northern Greeks, intermix with them, then just be a "different" population.

Albanians are without 100% doubt ROOTED to northern/western Greeks genetically. They are almost the same population. To claim they originated anywhere but the territory of Albania is idiocy.

80lcWDp.jpg


All those in red are Hellenic/Hellenized tribes. They surrounded southern Illyrians from almost all sides.

6D9OZEX.png

you map is too young ......get one from late iron age
 
And btw I predicted that ALL those Greeks would be like Myceneans: Macedonians, Peloponnese, Dorians. And behold literally EXACTLY what I predicted happened.

That was simple induction. Remove all the Migration Age related DNA from modern Greeks and you would get to ancient Greeks. Those new graphs show this perfectly

1Wf8qwz.png


The Byzantine Greek shows that additional admixture. The exact same logic applies to southern Illyrians and Albanians.

The actual southern Illyrians (Taulanti, Bylliones, Albanoi, Dardanians) and other northern Hellenized people like Epirotes and Macedonians would be somewhere around here

FesRawh.png


Adding Slavic ancestry to Mycenean Greeks you get a perfect fit to modern Greeks/Albanians. Southern Illyrians and Epirotes/Macedonians + Slavic ancestry are a perfect model for both northern Greeks and Macedonians. Certainly not Thracian/Dacian or any other already-eastern shifted people.
 
That little red box, is EXACTLY where those new Greek samples fell. Too bad basic logic is so hard for so many in this community.
 
You still don't understand the difference between Proto-Illyrians and Illyrians proper that lived for at least 1500 years next to the Greeks. It's the difference between the original steppe PIE people and the current Indo-Europeans. Southern Illyrians can't live for 1500 years next to those northern Greeks, intermix with them, then just be a "different" population.

Albanians are without 100% doubt ROOTED to northern/western Greeks genetically. They are almost the same population. To claim they originated anywhere but the territory of Albania is idiocy.

80lcWDp.jpg


All those in red are Hellenic/Hellenized tribes. They surrounded southern Illyrians from almost all sides.

6D9OZEX.png

Illyrians during the 3rd millenium B.C. lived North of Albania. In what is today Bosnia&Herzegovina.Then they slowly migrated furth South into North Albania. That's where they absorved Neolithic people. Similar to the Neolithic people in Greece. After that the Illyrians moved South of the Drin river, where they must have aborbed Greek-like people. There was contact between them. Also wars ofcourse, but that was a normal thing of the time. South Greeks also established colonies alongside the Albanian coast. During the Middle Age, both the Greeks as well as the Illyrians have absorbed some newcomers. Not to mention that Albania was an important part of the Adriatic route to Constantinople, while the region was scarcely populated. All of this resulted to the fact that the people there are similar to the people in Greece.

Still, as yet we have no specimens Ancient Illyrians in Albania.
 
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They probably just want to give it a shot and check how it works for them. I know of archaeologists and historians which were staunch opponents to genetic testing, extremely left oriented, but now they participate regularly on papers. I heard them saying, "if it has to be done, we want to have some control about how the results being interpreted at least." But that was a process. For one scientist I knew personally it lasted 10 years and now he can put his wrong theories into every paper which gets published, even if his theories being contradicted by the very results obtained. That way both sides being satisfied, because the geneticists just want samples and publications, and the historians don't want their theories getting shredded and themselves made looking dumb. If they need to correct, if the results are very clearly against what they proposed before, they can at least do the correction themselves with comments in the papers.
That's kind of a working on mutual trust. That the archaeologists and historians deliver the right samples and frames, the geneticists allow them to interpret the results as they like. Better than nothing gets done...

It's not just the archeologists or historians themselves, the governments that employee them are also left oriented, employer and employee, essentially one and the same. They realize that genetic testing presents problems to the theories they peddle, so their solution is to include themselves in panel and interpret the results for us. The best interpretations and breakthroughs are however the work of DNA hobbyists, like Maciamo, who was one the first proponents of R1b invasion. The interpretations of the papers themselves are a joke at best, intentional malpractice at worse.

Remember the Cheddar man? LOL The reconstruction looked like Michelle Obama. Hard for me to imagine how anyone can eat such an obvious lie, but if you search around, you'll see most members here were like ohhh wow, cool.
 
It's not just the archeologists or historians themselves, the governments that employee them are also left oriented, employer and employee, essentially one and the same. They realize that genetic testing presents problems to the theories they peddle, so their solution is to include themselves in panel and interpret the results for us. The best interpretations and breakthroughs are however the work of DNA hobbyists, like Maciamo, who was one the first proponents of R1b invasion. The interpretations of the papers themselves are a joke at best, intentional malpractice at worse.

Remember the Cheddar man? LOL The reconstruction looked like Michelle Obama. Hard for me to imagine how anyone can eat such an obvious lie, but if you search around, you'll see most members here were like ohhh wow, cool.

The Western WHG-s probably had additional autosomal from the earlier Paleolithic people belonging to Y-DNA C1, sort of Australoid-like, their facial features were nothing like SSA, but they could have dark brown color.
 
The Western WHG-s probably had additional autosomal from the earlier Paleolithic people belonging to Y-DNA C1, sort of Australoid-like, their facial features were nothing like SSA, but they could have dark brown color.

Rather not. There are no modern people North of a given latitude which are dark brown - the only people which might have looked that way were the first ones, before selection started to make them depigmented. A darker skin tone? Sure, but that WHG were as dark brown as in the reconstruction is just totally unlikely.
Its way more likely they just had a different genetic architecture and an unusual light brown tone.
 
It's not just the archeologists or historians themselves, the governments that employee them are also left oriented, employer and employee, essentially one and the same. They realize that genetic testing presents problems to the theories they peddle, so their solution is to include themselves in panel and interpret the results for us. The best interpretations and breakthroughs are however the work of DNA hobbyists, like Maciamo, who was one the first proponents of R1b invasion. The interpretations of the papers themselves are a joke at best, intentional malpractice at worse.

Remember the Cheddar man? LOL The reconstruction looked like Michelle Obama. Hard for me to imagine how anyone can eat such an obvious lie, but if you search around, you'll see most members here were like ohhh wow, cool.

Please, keep "leftists" as well as "rightists" out of the present questions; there are politically oriented people in every camp. I'm leftist on the economical field what doesn't influence me for unrelated questions, and I 'm very tired when I read some 'woke' theories, as are a lot of people who have nevertheless other political opinions.
 
People who imagine Mesolithic hunter-gatherers looking like modern populations should take a good look at this new PCA from the Allentoft et al pre-print:

dXFPkHf.png


Bedouins are closer on the PCA to central Europeans than either EHGs or WHGs are to any modern European. And the internal diversity of Eurasian hunter-gatherers is massive compared to modern West Eurasians.
 
The Western WHG-s probably had additional autosomal from the earlier Paleolithic people belonging to Y-DNA C1, sort of Australoid-like, their facial features were nothing like SSA, but they could have dark brown color.

Haplogroup C has been Eurasian for quite a while, it would not look like Australoids, who without a doubt have mixture from a pre-C population that once lived there. Reconstructing pre-historic Europeans as blacks is politically motivated. On the mainstream narrative we don't even exists, so the same narrative is being applied to historical interpretations.

Individuals associated with haplogroup I tend to have darker hair and sometimes skin tone. They give a good clue how Mesolithic Europeans would have looked like. And they don't look African or Indian.
 
Haplogroup C has been Eurasian for quite a while, it would not look like Australoids, who without a doubt have mixture from a pre-C population that once lived there. Reconstructing pre-historic Europeans as blacks is politically motivated. On the mainstream narrative we don't even exists, so the same narrative is being applied to historical interpretations.

Individuals associated with haplogroup I tend to have darker hair and sometimes skin tone. They give a good clue how Mesolithic Europeans would have looked like. And they don't look African or Indian.

What do you mean by black? Sub-Saharan like? Because the Cheddar Man reconstruction looks nothing like Sub-Saharans.

Those various WHG dark reconstruction give me more Australoid-like vibes, South Indian-like vibe rather than SSA. Especially the dark skin and blue eyes, a combination which you can find sometimes among Gypsies.

And not all WHG-s looked like that, only the Western European ones which i suspect got it by absorbing an earlier population, which is represented by Y-DNA C1a2 and is the oldest native European haplogroup.

Look at this, WHG girl from Scandinavia reconstructed. If someone told me guess her origin, i would say somewhere in South India. But then again she looks a bit different facially, there is something which makes her appearance more unique.

_110164066_tb_lola_final_lores.jpg
 
What do you mean by black? Sub-Saharan like? Because the Cheddar Man reconstruction looks nothing like Sub-Saharans.

Those various WHG dark reconstruction give me more Australoid-like vibes, South Indian-like vibe rather than SSA. Especially the dark skin and blue eyes, a combination which you can find sometimes among Gypsies.

And not all WHG-s looked like that, only the Western European ones which i suspect got it by absorbing an earlier population, which is represented by Y-DNA C1a2 and is the oldest native European haplogroup.

Look at this, WHG girl from Scandinavia reconstructed. If someone told me guess her origin, i would say somewhere in South India. But then again she looks a bit different facially, there is something which makes her appearance more unique.

_110164066_tb_lola_final_lores.jpg



I am saying you should be taking such reconstructions with a grain and salt. It is obvious malpractice/forgery. It is the equivalent of Belgrade science faculty claiming Albanians have tails. Same intentions.
 
My thread was finally proven today. Note how close Macedonia/Greek_Macedonia is to Illyrian. Pretty much identical.

Balkan-IA.png


I said those samples of southern Illyrians and Macedonians/Epirotes would fall in that red box. That's exactly where they fell.

FesRawh.png
 
This is why it was important to make a distinction between northern and southern Illyrians. It was also important to note that ancient Macedonians/southern Illyrians essentially were identical genetically. Alexander the Great's mother and paternal grandmother came from the territory of Albania :D And btw, I drew a box instead of individual points, because no one could predict exactly where they fell with 100% precision. Modern Albanians have Roman Imperial admixture as well.

EDIT: I already see Michalis crying in Anthrogenica because ancient Albanians plot identical to Macedonians. That must hurt right in the Greek nationalism :LOL::LOL::LOL: The leaked Greek study already showed that ancient Macedonians don't plot with Bulgarian IA, but he keeps propping up fake theories to sleep at night.
 
These are no Illyrians though, but Thracians, Paeonians and Dardanians. People with a lot of Channelled Ware ancestry and outside of the realm of Illyrians proper. The distance to the Serbian Bronze and Croatian Iron Age is significant.

An interesting issue, we can't clear up as of now, is whether the Albanian and Northern Macedonian samples being pulled to their position because they are on a more smooth cline, with a distance, but still, with Illyrians, or because they being pulled from Bulgarian IA towards steppe/Epi-Corded rather. Both is possible, but impossible to tell without a fine scale analysis.
However, the Illyrian block being now confirmed to have reached down to Serbia, but these samples from Albania and Macedonia in the Iron Age being different. Even more important will be, how the Bronze Age samples relate to the earlier inhabitants, before the Transitional Period. From leaks I heard that the pre-Iron Age Southern Balkan/Albanian sphere had no E-V13.

This makes an arrival of first J-L283 from the North West (Posusje-Dinaric culture) in the MBA-LBA and the later arrival of E-V13 with Channelled Ware in the LBA-EIA period extremely likely.
 
These are no Illyrians though, but Thracians, Paeonians and Dardanians. People with a lot of Channelled Ware ancestry and outside of the realm of Illyrians proper. The distance to the Serbian Bronze and Croatian Iron Age is significant.

An interesting issue, we can't clear up as of now, is whether the Albanian and Northern Macedonian samples being pulled to their position because they are on a more smooth cline, with a distance, but still, with Illyrians, or because they being pulled from Bulgarian IA towards steppe/Epi-Corded rather. Both is possible, but impossible to tell without a fine scale analysis.
However, the Illyrian block being now confirmed to have reached down to Serbia, but these samples from Albania and Macedonia in the Iron Age being different. Even more important will be, how the Bronze Age samples relate to the earlier inhabitants, before the Transitional Period. From leaks I heard that the pre-Iron Age Southern Balkan/Albanian sphere had no E-V13.

This makes an arrival of first J-L283 from the North West (Posusje-Dinaric culture) in the MBA-LBA and the later arrival of E-V13 with Channelled Ware in the LBA-EIA period extremely likely.

Please stop this garbage of constantly changing the definitions of things to fit your narrative. Kukes and Kolonje were both Illyrian and/or Macedonian territory. Kolonje first of all was in the crossroads of Illyria/Upper Macedonia and it's where Alexander the fought King Cleitus and Glaukias in the Siege of Pelium.

The Royal Illyrian tombs of Selce e Poshtme are in that region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selcë_e_Poshtme

Kukes is clearly in Illyrian territory.

"Illyrian tombs were found at Këneta and Kolsh nearby Kukës.[5]"



 
These are no Illyrians though, but Thracians, Paeonians and Dardanians. People with a lot of Channelled Ware ancestry and outside of the realm of Illyrians proper. The distance to the Serbian Bronze and Croatian Iron Age is significant.

An interesting issue, we can't clear up as of now, is whether the Albanian and Northern Macedonian samples being pulled to their position because they are on a more smooth cline, with a distance, but still, with Illyrians, or because they being pulled from Bulgarian IA towards steppe/Epi-Corded rather. Both is possible, but impossible to tell without a fine scale analysis.
However, the Illyrian block being now confirmed to have reached down to Serbia, but these samples from Albania and Macedonia in the Iron Age being different. Even more important will be, how the Bronze Age samples relate to the earlier inhabitants, before the Transitional Period. From leaks I heard that the pre-Iron Age Southern Balkan/Albanian sphere had no E-V13.

This makes an arrival of first J-L283 from the North West (Posusje-Dinaric culture) in the MBA-LBA and the later arrival of E-V13 with Channelled Ware in the LBA-EIA period extremely likely.

What we define archaeologically Illyrian which encompasses Glasinac-Mat and became synonymous with that nowadays and what was initially Illyrian might differ, the first attested Illyrian kingdom was that of Enchelei, the Enchelei used cremation on a pyre, and their burial rite might be Eastern Urnfield derived. The Illyrians on general were mostly affected by Glasinac-Mat Culture and secondarily the Trebeniste Culture whom Enchelei were representatives, the Enchelei are noted by Hammond to have had connections with Dardanii and Taulantii via the tribe called Peresadyes, this was used as personal name among Odrysians, and one attested Spartokid king in Black Sea Kingdom as well.

I don't know how Y-DNA picture looked like, would be interesting to know if E-V13 appears in Early Iron Age. That would be clear. The Trebeniste Culture remains might be tested since during Classical times they started burying their deads in necropolises.
 

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