Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

I love how this dude posts a chart discussing Southern Illyrians, but doesn't actually put Southern Illyrians in there.
 
I love how this dude posts a chart discussing Southern Illyrians, but doesn't actually put Southern Illyrians in there.
EAD3E106-7924-440C-919C-EED34F6F992E.jpg

Are you saying Mycenaeans are Northern of Aegeans? I never heard that to be honest. Can you provide some charts/pca?
 
Myceneans ARE south of Northern Illyrians. Wtf are you going on about? And where are Southern Illyrians in that chart?

Like I said, the admixture of southern Illyrians will depend on the era. The Pre-Slavic Era/Proto-Albanian is clearly Mycenean-like

LLFpF73.png


You can argue about why or how they got to that point, but Roman Empire South Illyrians were clearly similar to southern/central Italians.

I'm not sure that you understand how south of northern Illyrians, Mycenaeans are. Mycenaeans are to "the south" of Illyrians in the same sense that .... BA Cypriots are to the south of northern Illyrians. This doesn't mean at all that there's anything in common between southern Illyrians and Mycenaeans, let alone "Proto-Albanians". The difference is huge.

Basic components:

Target: HRV_EIA
Distance: 2.3379% / 0.02337930 | R4P
57.4 TUR_Barcin_N
35.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.6 WHG

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.9922% / 0.01992157 | R4P
67.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
11.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Even if you don't restrict components to 4, you don't get more than 0.6 WHG for Mycenaeans:

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.8182% / 0.01818229
67.8 TUR_Barcin_N
16.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
10.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 Levant_Natufian
1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.6 WHG
0.2 Han

IA Albania which is just south of IA Croatia represents southern Illyrians. You can see the PCA in the threads about the new Serbian study. IA Albania has nothing to do with Mycenaeans. It's much more northern that Mycenaeans and its closest existing sample autosomally is HRV_Pop_Ca.

Target: HRV_Pop_CA
Distance: 1.8480% / 0.01848030 | R4P
64.8 TUR_Barcin_N
31.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.4 WHG

Do you understand how big the difference is between Illyrians and Mycenaeans?

It's pointless to argue that southern Illyrians looked anything like Mycenaeans and that Mycenaeans looked anything like the ancestors of Albanians. You will never find a study which will show that southern Illyrians were close to Mycenaeans.

GDfGBu9.png
 
That some modern Albanians and Greek Macedonians plot very close to Iron Age Albania and Macedonia seems very interesting in and of itself, regardless of any relationship to Mycenaeans. When looking at the Doliani Epirus medieval sample from the other leaked PCA, it gives an appearance of long-standing continuity in the region (waiting for more samples to confirm or refute). Peloponnesians are unsurprisingly more shifted toward Crete, on the whole.
 
That some modern Albanians and Greek Macedonians plot very close to Iron Age Albania and Macedonia seems very interesting in and of itself, regardless of any relationship to Mycenaeans. When looking at the Doliani Epirus medieval sample from the other leaked PCA, it gives an appearance of long-standing continuity in the region (waiting for more samples to confirm or refute). Peloponnesians are unsurprisingly more shifted toward Crete, on the whole.

IA Macedonia is about North Macedonia. It is interesting because we distinguish Ancient Greeks genetically from every other group expect for Thracians. If Ancient Macedonians and Epirotes plot with Peloponnesians (ie. Empuries-Like samples) and they likely will, what does this mean?
 
I'm not sure that you understand how south of northern Illyrians, Mycenaeans are. Mycenaeans are to "the south" of Illyrians in the same sense that .... BA Cypriots are to the south of northern Illyrians. This doesn't mean at all that there's anything in common between southern Illyrians and Mycenaeans, let alone "Proto-Albanians". The difference is huge.

Basic components:

Target: HRV_EIA
Distance: 2.3379% / 0.02337930 | R4P
57.4 TUR_Barcin_N
35.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.6 WHG

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.9922% / 0.01992157 | R4P
67.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
11.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Even if you don't restrict components to 4, you don't get more than 0.6 WHG for Mycenaeans:

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.8182% / 0.01818229
67.8 TUR_Barcin_N
16.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
10.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 Levant_Natufian
1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.6 WHG
0.2 Han

IA Albania which is just south of IA Croatia represents southern Illyrians. You can see the PCA in the threads about the new Serbian study. IA Albania has nothing to do with Mycenaeans. It's much more northern that Mycenaeans and its closest existing sample autosomally is HRV_Pop_Ca.

Target: HRV_Pop_CA
Distance: 1.8480% / 0.01848030 | R4P
64.8 TUR_Barcin_N
31.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.4 WHG

Do you understand how big the difference is between Illyrians and Mycenaeans?

It's pointless to argue that southern Illyrians looked anything like Mycenaeans and that Mycenaeans looked anything like the ancestors of Albanians. You will never find a study which will show that southern Illyrians were close to Mycenaeans.

GDfGBu9.png

Mate, can you stop and read what I wrote for a second? There is no one uniform group of "Illyrians". There are 2 things you have to take into account

(1) Location

(2) Time Period

Even "Southern Illyrians" cover a period of 3,000 years, from 2500 BC to 500 AD. Their autosomal profile would have changed radically during those times.

This thread is specifically talking about the Pre-Slavic Illyrians in Albania, i.e. the Proto-Albanians, which would be Iron Age Illyrians + Roman Imperial admixture. Even so, stop pretending like Northern and Southern Illyrians are equal. They cluster somewhat close, but are clearly apart.

Now add Roman Imperial to the southern shifted Illyrians of the Iron Age. There is a reason why Macedonians cluster with them.
 
IA Macedonia is about North Macedonia. It is interesting because we distinguish Ancient Greeks genetically from every other group expect for Thracians. If Ancient Macedonians and Epirotes plot with Peloponnesians (ie. Empuries-Like samples) and they likely will, what does this mean?

The ancient Greeks so far are Empuries-like. Would love to know if some of the Iron Age Albania and Macedonia ancestry survived in situ more or less, after the Iron Age, or were people like Doliani medieval largely children of Slavs and Empuries-like people? Were any classical Macedonians like Iron Age Macedonia? Hope some answers come soon.
 
@enter_tain,

I would strongly suggest that before you post you re-read what you have written and remove all curse words and insults. Otherwise you're going to continue to find your posts deleted.
 
This thread is specifically talking about the Pre-Slavic Illyrians in Albania, i.e. the Proto-Albanians, which would be Iron Age Illyrians + Roman Imperial admixture. Even so, stop pretending like Northern and Southern Illyrians are equal. They cluster somewhat close, but are clearly apart.

Now add Roman Imperial to the southern shifted Illyrians of the Iron Age. There is a reason why Macedonians cluster with them.

About this I have a theory :). I wonder if you came around to understand what I meant during our last argument. Since last time I might not have conveyed my thoughts clearly.
 
Mate, can you stop and read what I wrote for a second? There is no one uniform group of "Illyrians". There are 2 things you have to take into account

(1) Location

(2) Time Period

Even "Southern Illyrians" cover a period of 3,000 years, from 2500 BC to 500 AD. Their autosomal profile would have changed radically during those times.

This thread is specifically talking about the Pre-Slavic Illyrians in Albania, i.e. the Proto-Albanians, which would be Iron Age Illyrians + Roman Imperial admixture. Even so, stop pretending like Northern and Southern Illyrians are equal. They cluster somewhat close, but are clearly apart.

Now add Roman Imperial to the southern shifted Illyrians of the Iron Age. There is a reason why Macedonians cluster with them.
Which Macedonians? The IA samples from Paeonia? It’s logical that Paeonians or nearby tribes should be very close to Southern Illyrians.

Proto-Albanians without Migration Period admixture are still not that close to Mycenaeans.
 
Which Macedonians? The IA samples from Paeonia? It’s logical that Paeonians or nearby tribes should be very close to Southern Illyrians.

Proto-Albanians without Migration Period admixture are still not that close to Mycenaeans.

I love how this dude goes to "Paeonia" directly. Could you be more disingenuous? :LOL: The south of modern day Macedonia was part of old Macedonia. But let's say it was Paeonia. Paeonia, that was essentially a puppet state of the Macedonians and neighbour, are NOT related to Macedonians but they are related to Illyrians?

Stop grasping at straws. Illyrians, depending on the time period, shifted more and more south that by the end of the Roman Empire were comparable to southern or central Italians. We have proof of this.
 
About this I have a theory :). I wonder if you came around to understand what I meant during our last argument. Since last time I might not have conveyed my thoughts clearly.

No I don't, because we were actually talking about Roman Empire Illyrians. They are the perfect representation of Proto-Albanians.

This dude is talking about Iron Age Illyrians before the Romans came over, which lacked any Roman Imperial admixture. There is no 1 Illyrian group. We have to add qualifiers like "Roman Empire", "Iron Age", or "Bronze Age" before them.

Maybe I should have done a better job naming the thread, but if you read OP in detail I'm more concerned about the Pre-Slavic Illyrians, which were clearly a southern Italian/Mycenean-like group. You might point out that it's because of Roman Imperial admixture they became more southern, but I wasn't so much concerned about HOW they got there, as I was with WHERE they plotted on the PCA before Slavs.

ay8PIuk.png
 
I love how this dude goes to "Paeonia" directly. Could you be more disingenuous? :LOL: The south of modern day Macedonia was part of old Macedonia. But let's say it was Paeonia. Paeonia, that was essentially a puppet state of the Macedonians and neighbour, are NOT related to Macedonians but they are related to Illyrians?

Stop grasping at straws. Illyrians, depending on the time period, shifted more and more south that by the end of the Roman Empire were comparable to southern or central Italians. We have proof of this.
Relax, nobody’s being hostile nor disingenuous.

I’m not so resourceful with ancient samples. I only know of the recently leaked samples from modern North Macedonia which is not ancient Macedonia proper. Not even direct neighbours to proper ancient Macedonians because they had some other tribes in between.

I always supported to idea that Southern Illyrians, Epirotes, Paeonians, and Makedonians will be genetically very close. It’s the Mycenaean part I don’t agree.

As far as I know (I might be wrong), Myceaneans are close to Aegeans (IA or BA). If that is not correct, please for the 3rd time, post some results, pcas, charts, whatever you got. I’m mostly interested in Illyrians and Thracians but I’m also curious of Mycenaeans.

What do you think of Empuries? Are they a good representative of Mycenaeans?
 
All of this shows me that Olalde et al. 2021 was correct. Balkans IA (Tuscany to South Italy)spans the leaked PCA.
Where is the leaked PCA from? And what do they mean by Macedonia? Greek Macedonia, or just any people living in territory of modern Republic of North Macedonia?
 
Where is the leaked PCA from? And what do they mean by Macedonia? Greek Macedonia, or just any people living in territory of modern Republic of North Macedonia?

Illyrians were on a cline from IA Croatia to IA Albania. The distance is much smaller than the distances observed in smaller regions. A part of IA North Macedonia overlaps with IA Albania which is something completely normal as western and northern N. Macedonia were Illyrian. As can be seen on the PCA from the Serbian study, IA Albania was not close at all to the Aegean area, so it's even more distant to Mycenaeans.

K9Mr3kC.png



Southern Illyrians were nowhere close to Mycenaeans. It's absurd to even suggest such a thing when actual evidence for the opposite is abundant.
 
Without the paper, how is it known that Iron Age Macedonia corresponds only to North Macedonia and does not include Greek Macedonia? There seems to be a lot of genetic diversity in Iron Age Macedonia, and Iron Age Albania overlaps with only a part of it.

It’s a good point that someone made, to be careful with PCA’s because correlation may not equal causation. Some modern Greek Macedonians for example may plot near Iron Age Macedonia because they share a similar ANE and steppe profile, but the ANE and steppe sources may not be the exactly or closely the same (e.g. medieval Slavs brought a lot steppe to the moderns, but ancients got it from a different source). Or perhaps some Albanians and Greek Macedonians are truly substantially descended from their geographic predecessors, and the PCA plotting is not coincidental.

Considering the leaked ancient Greek transect PCA, Deep Mani should plot somewhere near or with the northernmost ancient Greek sample. Very interesting picture at least, to see some of the modern south Balkans plotting close to ancient regional populations.
 
Anyone wants to hazard a guess at which population x coordinates are for(g25)?

x
0.11907426125,0.143091755,0.025005509375,-0.0163941265,0.0261132558375,-0.009156175125,0.00299491471225,0.003180877625,0.003759638225,0.02776687075,0.0039157228375,0.00652633707375,-0.00795603847375,-0.0013258031,-0.0137537065,-0.000970341500375,0.0129163582,0.0010389130525,0.0053588578625,-0.001409251675,-0.0078592526375,0.0101371213875,0.0004949173125,0.0018920822875,-0.002586066475

 
Anyone wants to hazard a guess at which population x coordinates are for(g25)?

x
0.11907426125,0.143091755,0.025005509375,-0.0163941265,0.0261132558375,-0.009156175125,0.00299491471225,0.003180877625,0.003759638225,0.02776687075,0.0039157228375,0.00652633707375,-0.00795603847375,-0.0013258031,-0.0137537065,-0.000970341500375,0.0129163582,0.0010389130525,0.0053588578625,-0.001409251675,-0.0078592526375,0.0101371213875,0.0004949173125,0.0018920822875,-0.002586066475
Is this modern or aDNA auDNA? Kind of reminds me of the R9669 sample from the Stable population structure paper?

Edit: never mind that is not the case
 
There is no Slavic or eastern european ancestry in Iron Age Croatians. OP post makes no sense. They shift towards Italics, Etrsucans and Celts. They were just way too northern to model modern Balkanites with them.Obviously Balkans received large amount of Imperial Roman and Anatolian like ancestry and that's why you can't model Albanians (or even Croats) with them alone.

There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA. Daunians in Apulia who are arcehologically believed to come from Albania proper were similarly northern/western.
Albos aren't that Illyrian obviously, they got loads of Thracian, Roman and Slavic admixture on top of that.

No E-V13 was found in Illyrians either, neither in Croatia, Slovenia or southern Italy. This whole thread looks like a giant cope with the fact Paleo-Balkan people were heavily diluted even before Slavic arrival and that modern Balkanites are heavily mixed, including non Slavic speakers like Greeks and Albos.

There are a bunch of Illyrians that cluster next to me. Including samples found in Croatia and Macedonia. And I am Albanian btw, not sure in what planet are all Illyrians supposed to be northern or western like some found in Iron Age Croatia when even there we see more southern and eastern profiles. Some of these are actually pretty good to model many Albanians with. Although your theory that Paleo-Balkan people might of been mixed before Slavs arrived indeed might be valid, and I am not arguing for some pure genetic continuity or whatever crap. I don't see how that is relevant in regards to proto-Albanian. The OP is wrong none of these are like Myceaneans. It also depends what PCA Map you use, I am using a PCA Map here that actually makes the distance look more huge , when I add them raw they cluster even closer.

Bilde-2022-10-14-095345715.png






Bilde-2022-10-14-191347596.png






Though the OP indeed seems to cope and has weird obsessions but many of you Croats seem to cope heavily too, no offence, and take things out of context, especially regarding E-V13.
 
You are obviously a sock-puppet account of that Kosovar kid lol. Anyway, it's not us saying Daco-Thracians were heavy E-V13, it's most of the anthofora people who already are mentioning and aknowleding, it's just couple of you J2b2-L283 Kosovars with dozens of sock-puppet accounts over the board who are over-reacting.

I say even Central Balkan people like Dardanii, Paeonii and Encheleii were E-V13 heavy as well. But, that's up to aDNA to confirm it.

He is obviously not a Kosovar but an Albanian from Albania. You just got butthurt because some Kosovar kid on a forum proposed proto-Albanians were from Albanoi rather than Dardani (These tribes could of fused or mingled already in roman period anyway or pre-roman period for that matter) . Since then everyone who proposes the same theory is a Kosovar sock puppet account. Stop accusing people of being socks of everyone. Take your pills and chill out.

J2b2 in Kosovo isn't only tied to Krasniqi and Gashi, who have tested for a bunch of other Y-DNA, but bunch of other people have tested for it. Krasniqi and Gashi were some of the most powerful tribes in Kosove. Gashi rose up against the Ottomans.

Many Serbs in Kosovo are immigrants from Montenegro that settled there during the Ottoman period just like Albanians did and they mainly occupied Kosove in 12th-13th century. What relevancy do they have here ? E-V13 in general in the Balkans is more common than J2b2-L283. You believe this is all attributed to a bunch of samples in Bulgaria ? What relevancy does it have to proto-Albanians anyway ?

Because an Y-DNA exists in Albanian doesn't automatically make it proto-Albanian. I know my DNA results very well, and I am ev-13 possibly from other sides and there is no way Thracians from Bulgaria had any genetic impact on someone like me, they are way too south. Samples in Nish, Macedonia, Croatia etc are better fits.


E-V13 sample from Nish is more northern than every IA Thracian. E-V13 in Kosove is also largely attested to few tribes like Morina, Berisha, Sopi, etc that test for E-V13 over and over again, showing little diversity compared to other tribes.
 

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