Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

Good explanation, IMO giving it a generalized label for now as Eastern Urnfield Cultures is more correct to differentiate from Western Urnfield (Celtic, Villanova and Central/Western Europe variants), since similar cultures in Carpatho-Danubian hemisphere belonging to Eastern Urnfield hemisphere used different techniques like channeling, flutes, stamped ornamentation, incised etc, etc.

Fluting/channling/cannelure is largely synonymous. Stamped ornamentation is something which developed later, connecting Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo-Babadag. Typical are "S"-shaped motifs. Such stamps combined with channelling and encrustations are what emerges in the Southern Channelled Ware sphere, after break up. Its what I sometimes called the Psenichevo-Basarabi horizon and it shows the influences of Encrusted Pottery, possibly, on the Channelled Ware people of the Lower Danube.
The classical incisions being the older type of decoration, found in a fairly wide area, including later G?va territories and at the Lower Danube.

So its quite specifically G?va/Channelled Ware if talking about channelled, fluted, cannelure decorated pottery in this period in the Balkans, partly even in Asia minor.
The channelling being commonly combined with knobs, but channelling can appear without, as can knobs appear without. Brnjica used knobbed pottery as well, and cremation also, so they might be an at least culturally affine group before Channelled Ware pushed them out.

Personally if you ask me, because there was a confusion somewhere else, Albanian archaeologists have beautifully explained that Glasinac-Mat and Trebeniste shouldn't be treated as exactly the same culture, but they should be treated as two cultures which formed the historical Illyrians with a prevailing importance on Glasinac-Mat complex.

According to Frano Prendi and Yugoslav archaeologists Matt-Painted Pottery Culture from South Albania had an Early/Middle Bronze Age influence from Belotic-Bela Crkva which in turn if i am not wrong is considered as precursor of Glasinac Culture. Channeled-Ware or as Albanian archaeologists label it Kanellure might be the Bronze to Iron Age influence or as Frano Prendi generalized them into as Pannonian Urnfield influence, but he thought they came by sea, somewhere from Liburnia directly landing in South Albania and down to Greece. His detailed explanation shouldn't matter, or it shouldn't be really an issue even if the trajectory he proposed is not totally correct, but he did mention the enrichment of iron weapons, flame shaped spears etc, etc.

Both happened, some came by sea, these were the main groups from Italy/Mediterranean, which formed the core of the Sea Peoples, but even the Sea Peoples got joined by kind of dispossessed Mycenaeans and (Carpathian) Channelled Ware warbands.

The bulk which ended up in Northern Greece in particular, however, and those which moved in over land, deeper into the country, those were all from the Carpathian zone, largely from the first expansion along the Danube, Belegis II-G?va. And these Belegis II-G?va warriors did penetrate Albania, especially Northern Albania as well. But their influence seems to have been not strong enough in all regions, to completely turn the population. In some areas they marched just through, while plundering and going on towards Thrace, Asia minor and beyond.

So what remained of them got soaked up by the locals and newly incoming Illyrians from the North West.

I would compare it with Celtic groups which moved deep into Eastern and South Eastern Europe, but with some exceptions, most of them got eventually pushed back or assimilated into other regional people. Same here: The Thracian ethnicity was only established in their strongholds, but their influence and admixture was much wider spread.

Just like in the next period the Fr?g group in Austria was probably not Thracian as such, but heavily influenced, both culturally and genetically, by the Thraco-Cimmerians and Basarabi. It really shows, that they have very close ties to the Thracians, whether they spoke Thracian themselves or were Celts or belonged to an unknown group, we don't know. But we have the artefacts, the burials and the evidence for individuals and small groups from Basarabi coming there. Especially elite warriors at first and elite brides and their retinue later.

Similarly there was a strong Channelled Ware influence and later intermarriage, with bride exchange networks, throughout the Balkans. It runs from the Black Sea to Austria, from Poland to Northern Greece.

But only in their core settlement zones people became truly Thracian. Hallstatt for example being born by a lot of these Carpathian and Thraco-Cimmerian influences reaching Central Europe. But its unlikely that even the strongest influenced groups (like Fr?g) became actually Thracian. In Albania the influence was initially stronger, but got pushed back it seems, same for Greece.

How much of the Channelled Ware groups, which for some time had their own burial grounds, cemeteries and settlements in e.g. parts of Greece, being later incorporated and assimilated into the local population, or finished off, or moved out, that's hard to evaluate without ancient DNA evidence. Because as soon as their signatures disappear and dissolve, all these options are possible.
 
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Fluting/channling/cannelure is largely synonymous. Stamped ornamentation is something which developed later, connecting Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo-Babadag. Typical are "S"-shaped motifs. Such stamps combined with channelling and enstrustations are what emerges in the Southern Channelled Ware sphere, after break up. Its what I sometimes called the Psenichevo-Basarabi horizon.
The classical incisions being the older type of decoration, found in a fairly wide area, including later G�va territories and at the Lower Danube.

So its quite specifically G�va/Channelled Ware if talking about channelled, fluted, cannelure decorated pottery in this period in the Balkans, partly even in Asia minor.
The channelling being commonly combined with knobs, but channelling can appear without, as can knobs appear without. Brnjica used knobbed pottery as well, and cremation also, so they might be an at least culturally affine group before Channelled Ware pushed them out.

Personally if you ask me, because there was a confusion somewhere else, Albanian archaeologists have beautifully explained that Glasinac-Mat and Trebeniste shouldn't be treated as exactly the same culture, but they should be treated as two cultures which formed the historical Illyrians with a prevailing importance on Glasinac-Mat complex.



Both happened, some came by sea, these were the main groups from Italy/Mediterranean, which formed the core of the Sea Peoples, but even the Sea Peoples got joined by kind of dispossessed Mycenaeans and (Carpathian) Channelled Ware warbands.

The bulk which ended up in Northern Greece in particular, however, and those which moved in over land, deeper into the country, those were all from the Carpathian zone, largely from the first expansion along the Danube, Belegis II-G�va. And these Belegis II-G�va warriors did penetrate Albania, especially Northern Albania as well. But their influence seems to have been not strong enough in all regions, to completely turn the population. In some areas they marched just through, while plundering and going on towards Thrace, Asia minor and beyond.

So what remained of them got soaked up by the locals and newly incoming Illyrians from the North West.

I would compare it with Celtic groups which moved deep into Eastern and South Eastern Europe, but with some exceptions, most of them got eventually pushed back or assimilated into other regional people. Same here: The Thracian ethnicity was only established in their strongholds, but their influence and admixture was much wider spread.

Just like in the next period the Fr�g group in Austria was probably not Thracian as such, but heavily influenced, both culturally and genetically, by the Thraco-Cimmerians and Basarabi. It really shows, that they have very close ties to the Thracians, whether they spoke Thracian themselves or were Celts or belonged to an unknown group, we don't know. But we have the artefacts, the burials and the evidence for individuals and small groups from Basarabi coming there. Especially elite warriors at first and elite brides and their retinue later.

Similarly there was a strong Channelled Ware influence and later intermarriage, with bride exchange networks, throughout the Balkans. It runs from the Black Sea to Austria, from Poland to Northern Greece.

But only in their core settlement zones people became truly Thracian. Hallstatt for example being born by a lot of these Carpathian and Thraco-Cimmerian influences reaching Central Europe. But its unlikely that even the strongest influenced groups (like Fr�g) became actually Thracian. In Albania the influence was initially stronger, but got pushed back it seems, same for Greece.

How much of the Channelled Ware groups, which for some time had their own burial grounds, cemeteries and settlements in e.g. parts of Greece, being later incorporated and assimilated into the local population, or finished off, or moved out, that's hard to evaluate without ancient DNA evidence. Because as soon as their signatures disappear and dissolve, all these options are possible.

What I'm curious about is the channelled ware in Albania.

These migrants came and brought this new culture to Albania, specifically in regions where Taulanti would be later.

It is impossible they spoke the same language as the Glasinac people already there before them and connected with Bosnia.

So which language did these channelled ware migrants bring to Albania?

Did they conquer the local glasinac speaking people and wipe out their language, or assimilate to their language, or live separately with two different languages?

article_prehistoric-pottery_1-1024x918.jpg
 
What I'm curious about is the channelled ware in Albania.
These migrants came and brought this new culture to Albania, specifically in regions where Taulanti would be later.
It is impossible they spoke the same language as the Glasinac people already there before them and connected with Bosnia.
So which language did these channelled ware migrants bring to Albania?
Did they conquer the local glasinac speaking people and wipe out their language, or assimilate to their language, or live separately with two different languages?
article_prehistoric-pottery_1-1024x918.jpg

That's very hard to answer, because unlike for the Morava-Vardar region, where the Serbian teams have done a great job, I know much too little about how complete the package of the Channelled Ware using people in Albania was. Both in Albania and Bulgaria, the archaeological research, or at least the one I could find, is far too incomplete or not as easily accessable as that of Hungary, Romania and Serbia. There were experts invited to a symposium, which pubished a great publication for other areas, but the Albanian contribution was finally missing largely.
What we know however, is that a large fraction of the Channelled Ware seems to have come not directly from the North, but rather from the East. This would suggest that they either spoke Thracian or Paeonian, rather originally. However, how the local fusion was, nobody really knows.
I mean if they would turn out, in their early phase, largely non-J-L283 and with a lot of E-V13, well, that would be a clear result. But since many of the Channelled ware migrants cremated and we probably never will get samples from these, we can only judge by later percentages, which can be always misleading.

In heavily mixed zones, its always the most difficult to assess the outcome in patrilineages and autosomes. We really need ancient DNA to be sure.

But my personal guess would have been they spoke originally Thracian.

If that guess, its really just a guess, would be true, it would be mean that a Thracian wedge in Kosovo-Northern Albania, coming from Belegis II-G?va (Thracian) and the Macedonian mixed groups (could be Paeonian too there!) would have been between the more Northern Illyrians and the Southern groups. Later, these would have been annihilated, removed or simply assimilated. That's up to ancient DNA results.

Its worth to note that especially in Northern Kosovo, we deal with a high concentration and strong position of Belegis II-G?va/Channelled Ware. So those should have been, without a doubt, Thracian speaking. Even if more Southern Channelled Ware groups would be mixed or more local in ancestry, and spoke a different language. The very Northern groups, in Kosovo, these surely were turned to Thracian. The impact there was too strong.
My guess/bet goes with Thracian therefore for all territories, and I have an even stronger opinion on the Northern Kosovo group. Big centres of Belegis II-G?va being too close and influential. That should have been Thracian in the LBA-EIA.
 
The date is important. Is this part of the Copper Age coming to Iberia??? Or is it later and just part of the pattern of the Greeks establishing trading colonies along the Med in the first century B.C.?
 
The date is important. Is this part of the Copper Age coming to Iberia??? Or is it later and just part of the pattern of the Greeks establishing trading colonies along the Med in the first century B.C.?

I think the second option
If i will know more about it i will
Post more information;)
 
Interesting! can you share their Eurogenes K13,K15 and Dodecad K12b results if you don't mind?
Eurogenes K13: Dukagjin,26.01,12.17,23.94,8.66,25.29,1.54,0,0.31,2.08,0,0,0,0
Dodecad K12b: Dukagjin,5.85,0.72,0.67,0,34.29,22.77,0,0,6.58,0.95,28.17,0

Eurogenes K13: Dukagjin2,25.78,11.81,23.1,7.72,24.94,2.72,0,1.15,1.67,0.54,0.29,0,0.28
Eurogenes K15: Dukagjin2,[FONT=&quot]16.07,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]17.42,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]10.75,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]0.35,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]18.78,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7.48,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]22.72,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3.14,0,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]0.69,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1.62,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]0.51,0,0,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]0.45[/FONT]
Dodecad K12b: Dukagjin2,5.71,0.09,1.97,0,33.75,21.91,0,0,6.1,1.5,26.74,2.22
 
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It's from this vid [h=1]Carles Lalueza-Fox, in conversation with David Reich, "Inequality: A Genetic History"[/h]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEcfm7i1ysQ&t=2542s

Thanks for sharing(y)
So they were greeks who lived
In a punic colony interesting
 
As in North Africa, a port city where different groups mingled. The only place in the ancient world where everyone in a port city was a "native", is apparently Italy. :)
 
Dushman: Thanks for the Coordinates. My distances for these Greeks living in Punic Cities.

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
12.61969096DodecadK12b:Dukagjin2
12.68788793DodecadK12b:Dukagjin

Oh, I don't no why the hell that stupid clown sometimes pops up.
 
Speaking of genetic diversity that we see, Illyrians were not so Mycenaean-like. So what does this mean about Dorians being a nearly identical population (does that still hold water?) that destroyed the Mycenaean civilization? Why weren't Classical Peloponnesians pulled north?
Who knows.
 
Dushman: Thanks for the Coordinates. My distances for these Greeks living in Punic Cities.

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
12.61969096DodecadK12b:Dukagjin2
12.68788793DodecadK12b:Dukagjin

Oh, I don't no why the hell that stupid clown sometimes pops up.

GEN9HxM.png


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You are exaggerating lol, in Iron Age, all Balkan populations were stabilized and were Italian-like. I doubt they were separate race at all. Epirotans/Macedonians probably had quite some Steppe, not as much as more Northern Balkan tribes but still.

Are you meaning 'Italianlike' = some level well mixed+homogenized pop? For a so mountaious region? I doubt. It's why some pop's with ancient DNA "looks" emerge later in history here and there, even if not parfectly identical with the ancestral ones.
 
Dushman: Thanks for the Coordinates. My distances for these Greeks living in Punic Cities.

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
12.61969096DodecadK12b:Dukagjin2
12.68788793DodecadK12b:Dukagjin

Oh, I don't no why the hell that stupid clown sometimes pops up.
For you specifically I got this Albanian interesting sample to compare. :)

AlbanianGheg,[FONT=&quot]6.07,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]0.93,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3.22,0,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]29.64,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]20.1,0,0,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]6.5,0,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]33.54,0

The South-Westernmost shifted Albanian coordinates I've ever seen, followed by this sample as the most North-Western shifted:

AlbanianGheg2,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2.5,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]0.34,0,0,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]32.38,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]27.87,0,0,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7.31,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]0.83,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]28.77,0[/FONT]
 
Are you meaning 'Italianlike' = some level well mixed+homogenized pop? For a so mountaious region? I doubt. It's why some pop's with ancient DNA "looks" emerge later in history here and there, even if not parfectly identical with the ancestral ones.

Well, we've discussed some of the examples of the "throw backs" physically in the heights of the Appennines in my father's villages, but appearance and autosomal percentages of admixtures are two different things.

I don't have access to enough genomes from people who come from those heights to know if he was correct, but Cavalli-Sforza was convinced that the people in the heights were people from the plains who fled the restrictive feudal laws there, and once arrived there was drift in terms of certain alleles, but he thought they were still the same people.

That said, Italians are quite varied by province and even within provinces. The people in Northern Apulia are more Abruzzese like and quite a bit different from people from the Salento. Political boundaries mean little. The samples named Piemonte were taken from an area in the Ligurian Alps where the people speak a Ligurian dialect, and the towns all have Ligure in the names. I would bet a great deal they're quite different from the Piemontesi further west.

People place too much emphasis on where people plot on a 2D space. People can plot near one another without being wholly descended from the same groups. Another example are the Ashkenazim and some Greeks and Southern Italians.

I know it's anathema to some Albanians, but on a PCA and in Admixture they look more like Greeks with more Slavic, ie. on the Balkan cline, not the Italian one. Not saying that's how they were formed, of course. That's a different issue altogether.

So, generalizations about "Italians" or "Italian like" are bound to usually be wrong.
 
Well, we've discussed some of the examples of the "throw backs" physically in the heights of the Appennines in my father's villages, but appearance and autosomal percentages of admixtures are two different things.

I don't have access to enough genomes from people who come from those heights to know if he was correct, but Cavalli-Sforza was convinced that the people in the heights were people from the plains who fled the restrictive feudal laws there, and once arrived there was drift in terms of certain alleles, but he thought they were still the same people.

That said, Italians are quite varied by province and even within provinces. The people in Northern Apulia are more Abruzzese like and quite a bit different from people from the Salento. Political boundaries mean little. The samples named Piemonte were taken from an area in the Ligurian Alps where the people speak a Ligurian dialect, and the towns all have Ligure in the names. I would bet a great deal they're quite different from the Piemontesi further west.

People place too much emphasis on where people plot on a 2D space. People can plot near one another without being wholly descended from the same groups. Another example are the Ashkenazim and some Greeks and Southern Italians.

I know it's anathema to some Albanians, but on a PCA and in Admixture they look more like Greeks with more Slavic, ie. on the Balkan cline, not the Italian one. Not saying that's how they were formed, of course. That's a different issue altogether.

So, generalizations about "Italians" or "Italian like" are bound to usually be wrong.
Actually Albanians on PCAs would be South Italians with Slavic admixture. It's the Bulgarians that look like Greeks+Slavic as Albanians are more Western shifted than all the aforementioned populations.

From the ancient samples I've seen, Albanians are closest to the samples from Croatia called Gardun_AD575, Sipar_AD599, Zadar_PoliklinikaAD177, as well as the ones from Serbia called SvilosKrusevlje_AD284, SerbiaSirmium_AD348, etc.

Now that we got the leaks from IA and MA Albania we know that the Southern Illyrians were (obviously) more Southern shifted than the Croatian ones and even closer to even overlapping with Albanians.
 
Jovialis RE post 373: Thanks for that informtation.
 
Dushman: Hmmm for me specifically!, My Sicilian genes are starting to shout "Danger Mr. Robinson", a tribute to the 1965 to 1968 TV American sort of cult classic "Lost n Space". Ok, more serious note, I get a reasonable distance to the first Gheg sample (SW shifted one) not as close to the NW shifted one. Not that surprising. On another note, the term "gege" was one I heard as a kid. Some Americans of Sicilian ancestry where I live as I remember my Grandmother (my Fathers Mother) saying would sometimes speak in Sicilian with words that she would say are "gege" and harder for her to understand. I kid you not. On the other hand, as I have noted here, my Maternal Grandmothers Father (My Great Grandfather) was from an area in Sicily (Pallazo Adriano) near Contessa Entellina where large numbers of Albanian/Abereshe settled. I know for a fact he was a Byzantine Eastern Rite Catholic (not Eastern Orthodox) in communion with Rome. There was a study in 2014 by Sarno et al entitled "Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe" which was an interesting read. If you haven't read the paper, you might want to take a look at it. From what I remember, the Contessa Entellina group clustered close with Greeks from the Peloponnesian islands. Now with all that said, please note I in no way want to get into the Greek and Albanian feuds I sometimes see around here. I like getting along with both of you guys.

Cheers, PT


Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
9.48427646AlbanianGheg
16.75821888AlbanianGheg2

 
Dushman: Hmmm for me specifically!, My Sicilian genes are starting to shout "Danger Mr. Robinson", a tribute to the 1965 to 1968 TV American sort of cult classic "Lost n Space". Ok, more serious note, I get a reasonable distance to the first Gheg sample (SW shifted one) not as close to the NW shifted one. Not that surprising. On another note, the term "gege" was one I heard as a kid. Some Americans of Sicilian ancestry where I live as I remember my Grandmother (my Fathers Mother) saying would sometimes speak in Sicilian with words that she would say are "gege" and harder for her to understand. I kid you not. On the other hand, as I have noted here, my Maternal Grandmothers Father (My Great Grandfather) was from an area in Sicily (Pallazo Adriano) near Contessa Entellina where large numbers of Albanian/Abereshe settled. I know for a fact he was a Byzantine Eastern Rite Catholic (not Eastern Orthodox) in communion with Rome. There was a study in 2014 by Sarno et al entitled "Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe" which was an interesting read. If you haven't read the paper, you might want to take a look at it. From what I remember, the Contessa Entellina group clustered close with Greeks from the Peloponnesian islands. Now with all that said, please note I in no way want to get into the Greek and Albanian feuds I sometimes see around here. I like getting along with both of you guys.

Cheers, PT


Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
9.48427646AlbanianGheg
16.75821888AlbanianGheg2

Interesting anecdote PalermoTrapani thanks for sharing.
Regarding the feuds, I would say its a mainly mainstream political one. Most informed Greek and Albanian members on Anthrofora I think got the memo that more than anything genetically we are cousin populations, especially autosomally speaking, but not only. This I think can be noticed from the lower amount of friction on anthrofora between members of such nationality as we got more and more papers and aDNA(Lazaridis Minoan Mycenean breaking the most ice, but also on community wide PCAs Albanians and mainland Greeks overlap so much, that only community wide outliers could be distinguished if unlabeled, otherwise even trained eyes would have a tough time telling who is who.

Angela, I think it is interesting when one looks back at the paper stating Italians share as much identity by common descent with Albanians as with each other. I think that more than anything testifies to shared historical waves of genes/ meta movements of people, and not only 2d PCA artifacts.
I think the upcoming BA/IA/MA Albanian samples will clarify everything, relating to what is a relic and what is not. At least the last 1500 years the bottleneck is peculiarly strong, compared to all other European pops, highest shared ICD.
 

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