Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

At this point I am unsure. Initially I heard of at least 2-3 samples from one single site in NA from BA-IA. While the SA site was not tested yet. Now there is a graphic with samples from BA-IA-MA, hence I suspect there is more than a batch of samples. Probably like 5 samples at least would be my understanding, if these samples are from different papers. But hopefully more.
 
Are you meaning 'Italianlike' = some level well mixed+homogenized pop? For a so mountaious region? I doubt. It's why some pop's with ancient DNA "looks" emerge later in history here and there, even if not parfectly identical with the ancestral ones.

He probably means that Balkans in the Iron Age showed a cline from Bell Beaker like western mediterranean population to mycenean like populations in the southern regions, just like you have in Italy.
 
It is much older, It is around 2500 BC and starts from Vucedol

Still at Vucidol after so many years in this forum. A beautiful dream. Is there any relation between Vucedol and Mycenaean samples.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Still at Vucidol after so many years in this forum. A beautiful dream. Is there any relation between Vucedol and Mycenaean samples.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

since you never read the book,
Possibly you will never know.
 
I'm sticking to the definition of Illyrians I learnt and read in all reasonable sources:

1600px-Illyrians_%28English%29.svg.png


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...glish).svg/1600px-Illyrians_(English).svg.png

Illyrians being never restricted to Albania. And we know that other people's influences were stronger in the area of Albania than in the core zone of these Illyrians. That's just how it is.

At some point we might simply see significant differences based on tribal groupings, caused by different admixture events.

Alternative map:
1200px-Illyrians_Ethnogenesis_Theories_%28English%29.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...Illyrians_Ethnogenesis_Theories_(English).jpg

use this map of illyria as per the Roman split of the area

The Daunians came from the green area .....before going to apulia Italy circa 1000BC

The black part is suppose to be "Illyrian proper" ...............the non-celtized part of Illyria

 
Agree. It was just one of my "generalistic" reasonings remarks. I was not speaking of the effects of mountains on highlands vs plains, but of the general effect of mountains on circulation as a whole, in ancient Balkans (valuable for ancient Italy). I agree that from a relatively homogenous mixed pop can be born by some geographic barriers some striking differences that concern only a little part of the genome of the "children" subregional pop's. Nothing new.

I agree with that. Mountain ranges can, if not block gene flow, lessen it, or direct it in certain directions. In Italy, the easiest entrance from the north is by skirting the Alps on the east, which ten feeds into the Veneto plain. Peoples coming from central/eastern Europe could flow both into Italy and the Balkans.

Gene flow from the Balkans is also possible by that route, but in addition one can see the Balkans across the Adriatic in some places, and in others there are small islands in the Adriatic which act as "stepping stones".

There's also gene flow through navigation of the Mediterranean, of course. By the time of the Romans it was easier to go from Anatolia to Greece and then on to Italy, but even in the Neolithic one could navigate along the shore. That's how the farmers made it to Spain from Italy, after all.

Still, all in all, looking at the IBD analysis in particular, it wasn't as easy for other groups to massively change the genetics of Italy, not as easy as was the case for central/Eastern Europe, where it's one flat plain for thousands of kilometers. Which military leader was it who said it was perfect for tanks? Add to that the large population numbers and one can see why Southern Europe has had a quite different genetic history than Northern Europe, as Ralph and Coop point out.

Spain is in much the same position, except that there was a deliberate policy of population re-settlements, and not as many internal barriers, and so the population isn't as structured as the Italian one. What people often fail to recognize is that there's not only the Alps in Italy to protect against massive migration, but there's the Apennines running north south, and creating differences between the eastern and western areas.

Add to that the fact that the south was separated from the north/center since the fall of Rome, and that the central north was divided into Papal states and competing city states, and one can see why there is so much variation in Italy, far more, actually, in the north/central regions than in the south. So, when other groups say they are "near" or "similar to" Italians, the question is, which Italians "specifically", and you'd better have a lot of Italian samples even from one province, because there's going to be a difference.

My Magra River Valley flows for 62 kilometers from the Apennines to the Mediterranean. I can see the difference in appearance of the locals by northern part, middle part, and Mediterranean part. Now, of course, we also have Southern migrants, so it's more confusing, but my point is that it would seem incredible that there could be that kind of stratification in such a small distance, but there is. The reason? On the sea coast, you're going to have more admixture, largely from Toscana but also further afield. Up in the foothills, people don't move very far from their home villages, and don't trust people not from their home villages. "Moglie e buoi dei paesi tuoi" is a famous rhyming saying. Cows and wives from your own villages. Added to that, this small area was divided into three separate sub-areas, ruled by three different governments, with passes required for movement in some cases: Modena, Toscana, and Genova.

Such is the Italian history which people should know before trying to draw big conclusions from genetic data.
 
The (Dodecad K12b) distance of my Greek friend and his paternal grandmother from your samples

Distance to:Chris
5.11605317AlbanianGheg
12.24463148Dukagjin
12.69021276Dukagjin2
14.78278729AlbanianGheg2

Distance to:Chris_Paternal_Grandma
5.13259194AlbanianGheg
8.33935249Dukagjin2
8.36463388Dukagjin
11.34405130AlbanianGheg2


I would like to focus more on his grandmother though...as I have written on her thread she is from Elis, from the easternmost area which historically received many migrants from the nearby westernmost part of Arcadia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gortynia). While I don't know much about the migratory history of that part of Arcadia from the middle ages onwards, I know that at least at some point in time there were some Arvanite settlements established there (mentioned on the first surviving Ottoman defter of the area, I think).
This is her coords to compare and contrast if there is anything useful/interesting to be extracted.
Code:
Chris_paternal_grandmother_(Elis_Greece)_DODECAD_K12b,4.7,0,4.57,1.22,30.31,18.59,0,0,9.73,0,30.87,0
Code:
Chris_paternal_grandmother_(Elis_Greece)_EUROGENES_K13,22.69,9.72,22.79,9.8,27.71,5.11,0,0.44,0,0,0.43,0,1.3

( Her raw data comes from Myheritage, surely of poor coverage compared to other tests but how much different could her results really be, my friend's were VERY similar between his Myheritage and WGS tests )
I guess the closest to his grandmother would be this Central Albania:

Albania_Central,4.86,0,4.38,0,28.95,18.74,0,0,12.39,0,30.67,0

Then we got yet another outlier from Coastal North-West Albania that in a PCA falls between Central and South Italy:

AlbaniaNW_Coastal,5.92,0,1.53,0.62,32.06,19.68,0.22,0,7.84,0,32.12,0
 
Target: Albanian_Montenegro
Distance: 628.0296% / 6.28029572
73.2Italian_Tuscany
26.8Polish_South


Target: Albanian_Macedonia
Distance: 819.6674% / 8.19667388
83.6Italian_Tuscany
16.4Polish_South


Target: Albanian_Kosovo
Distance: 666.5453% / 6.66545269
82.4Italian_Tuscany
17.6Polish_South


Target: Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
Distance: 682.5687% / 6.82568678
100.0Italian_Tuscany


Target: Albanian_South_Albania
Distance: 832.7333% / 8.32733295
92.2Italian_Tuscany
7.8Polish_South


Target: Albanian_Central_Albania
Distance: 821.3798% / 8.21379757
96.2Italian_Tuscany
3.8Polish_South


Target: Albanian_North_Albania
Distance: 797.5859% / 7.97585871
84.0Italian_Tuscany
16.0Polish_South
Very funny. Those distances are so off they went to the moon and back. Those are the most senseless chosen components with the worst fits I have ever seen, nothing to do with "I tried something out" lol. Since this is meant seriously I would advice you to have a look at Albanian samples from various regions and see where they plot. There are different components that make Albanians plot the way they plot today and it definitely is not because of total continuity from those due to be published Iron Age Albanian samples.
 
Very funny. Those distances are so off they went to the moon and back. Those are the most senseless chosen components with the worst fits I have ever seen, nothing to do with "I tried something out" lol. Since this is meant seriously I would advice you to have a look at Albanian samples from various regions and see where they plot. There are different components that make Albanians plot the way they plot today and it definitely is not because of total continuity from those due to be published Iron Age Albanian samples.
Yes Albanians need a BGR_ IA like source source to make the fit tighter and the northern component reaches 20%. I have proposed using Tuscans as a component for the Balkanic ancestry of Albanians ages ago before the leaked PCA. (It also matched Germanic+Slavic YDna in Albanians and South-West Slavs). And it was only me to do so.
 
Yes Albanians need a BGR_ IA like source source to make the fit tighter and the northern component reaches 20%. I have proposed using Tuscans as a component for the Balkanic ancestry of Albanians ages ago before the leaked PCA. (It also matched Germanic+Slavic YDna in Albanians and South-West Slavs). And it was only me to do so.

Albanians don't need any BGR_IA source. We already saw in the study about Serbia that the closest IA population to Albanians is IA Albania, not the Aegean-shifted or even 100% Aegean BGR_IA cluster. Modern Albanians can be modeled as western Balkans in the Roman era + minor Migration Period admixture with a great fit.

The thread's hypothesis that southern Illyrians will be close to Mycenaeans has been proven entirely incorrect in the Serbian study. Southern Illyrians (IA Albania) are just a bit more southern shifted than IA Croatia and have no relation whatsoever to Mycenaeans.
 
Albanians don't need any BGR_IA source. We already saw in the study about Serbia that the closest IA population to Albanians is IA Albania, not the Aegean-shifted or even 100% Aegean BGR_IA cluster. Modern Albanians can be modeled as western Balkans in the Roman era + minor Migration Period admixture with a great fit.

The thread's hypothesis that southern Illyrians will be close to Mycenaeans has been proven entirely incorrect in the Serbian study. Southern Illyrians (IA Albania) are just a bit more southern shifted than IA Croatia and have no relation whatsoever to Mycenaeans.

Have you been hit in the head recently? Mycenaean Greeks =/= Aegeans. They are noticeably different.

Mycenean Greeks are quite similar to southern/central Italians, just like southern Illyrians.

And this depends on which period are you talking about for southern Illyrians:

Bronze Age
Iron Age
Late Antiquity
 
Yes Albanians need a BGR_ IA like source source to make the fit tighter and the northern component reaches 20%. I have proposed using Tuscans as a component for the Balkanic ancestry of Albanians ages ago before the leaked PCA. (It also matched Germanic+Slavic YDna in Albanians and South-West Slavs). And it was only me to do so.
BGR_IA would cause a South-Western pull. What Albanians need is both a North-Eastern (higher Baltic in K13) and South-Eastern pull (Aegean, Anatolian, and Levantine).

So far the closest ancient sample to North Albanians seems to be the Viminacium one from AD 220.
 
Have you been hit in the head recently? Mycenaean Greeks =/= Aegeans. They are noticeably different.

Mycenean Greeks are quite similar to southern/central Italians, just like southern Illyrians.

And this depends on which period are you talking about for southern Illyrians:

Bronze Age
Iron Age
Late Antiquity
Why did you feel the need to attack him?

Could have just made your point and attach a PCA to prove it.
 
If I see another uncivil exchange here I'm going to close the thread.
 
Have you been hit in the head recently? Mycenaean Greeks =/= Aegeans. They are noticeably different.

Mycenean Greeks are quite similar to southern/central Italians, just like southern Illyrians.

And this depends on which period are you talking about for southern Illyrians:

Bronze Age
Iron Age
Late Antiquity
pca2.png


As everyone can see on any PCA, the position of southern Illyrians which will be just south of northern Illyrians from IA Croatia is not even remotely close to Mycenaeans. It's astonishing that someone would claim something like that. Saying that Mycenaeans are "close" to southern Illyrians is completely wrong
 
pca2.png


As everyone can see on any PCA, the position of southern Illyrians which will be just south of northern Illyrians from IA Croatia is not even remotely close to Mycenaeans. It's astonishing that someone would claim something like that. Saying that Mycenaeans are "close" to southern Illyrians is completely wrong


so , are you now changing the term Southern Illyrians, which in the past where Illyrians from modern Montenegro, known as "Illyrian proper", to include Dalmatians as "southern Illyrians " ???
 
pca2.png


As everyone can see on any PCA, the position of southern Illyrians which will be just south of northern Illyrians from IA Croatia is not even remotely close to Mycenaeans. It's astonishing that someone would claim something like that. Saying that Mycenaeans are "close" to southern Illyrians is completely wrong

Myceneans ARE south of Northern Illyrians. Wtf are you going on about? And where are Southern Illyrians in that chart?

Like I said, the admixture of southern Illyrians will depend on the era. The Pre-Slavic Era/Proto-Albanian is clearly Mycenean-like

LLFpF73.png


You can argue about why or how they got to that point, but Roman Empire South Illyrians were clearly similar to southern/central Italians.
 

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