R1b L-21 and Goidelic Celtic

[Angela]

See:

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2022...tter&utm_campaign=r1b-l21-and-goidelic-celtic

 

[MOESAN]

I think it's rather a (interesting) thread for linguistic.
just this: the differences between P- and Qw- Celtic in the Isles is not limited to this striking shift (phonetic, lexicon too). Celtic is not born at IA, it is older IMO. The differences are big enough when we compare to other families, here I don't agree with the mainstream linguists.
Gaelic-like dialects could have reached Britain at BA (when precisely, I cannot say). I doubt as well that first BB spoke true Celtic. To track the diverse subclades of Y-21 would be very interesting, and also to not forget the Atlantic Bronze and a possible lingua franca.
Seemingly, some Gaulish and even Belgae tribes would have reached Ireland too?

 

[MOESAN]

old Gaelic and old Brittonic surely seemed closer one to another, it's expected. Brittonic loaned words from Latin, expected too.
But some cognates seem showing a better conservation (more archaic) in Gaelic than in Brittonic on the phonetic aspect. It isn't always a proof; but very often the innovations come from the linguistic and cultural center which goes further on the direction of this innovation but peripheric dialects don't know these innovation OR adopt it, but don't go as quick on the same direction;
I have to see but as an amateur I hypothesise that Gaelic is a more ancient layer of Celtic (surely present too in Britain before Britoonics), and not a parallelic Insular Celtic dialect. I hope I 'll time to look at the docs I have at hand since not too long ago and I never looked at deeply. Time is running so fast.

 

[Tamakore]

The first steppe-related migrations up the Danube and down the Rhine probably introduced western (centum) IE languages to Europe. Perhaps by the time the migrants reached the upper Rhine they were already speaking proto-Italo-Celtic. That assumes that the branches leading eventually to proto-Hellenic and proto-Germanic had already branched off somewhere along the Danube.

I suggest that in the upper Rhine, perhaps in the Black Forest area, there was a geographical separation between two branches of proto-Italo-Celtic. A south-western branch became proto-Italic, perhaps migrating down the Rhone valley and eventually into the Italian peninsula. A north-western branch continued to migrate down the Rhine to the mouth, by which time they were proto-Q-Celtic speakers who then migrated to Britain and Ireland, in association with the R-L21 Y haplogroup.

I think proto-P-Celtic developed later, perhaps in association with the Urnfield expansion. With the subsequent Hallstatt and La Tene cultures, P-Celtic languages may have replaced Q-Celtic languages everywhere except Ireland, which was protected by its isolation from continental Europe. That fits with R-L21 remaining most predominant in the west of Ireland, where it was least diluted by subsequent westward migrations.

 

[MOESAN]

Without proof, it's a very possible thing, until new elements come to confirm or infirm it.

 

[Robotnick]

The first steppe-related migrations up the Danube and down the Rhine probably introduced western (centum) IE languages to Europe. Perhaps by the time the migrants reached the upper Rhine they were already speaking proto-Italo-Celtic. That assumes that the branches leading eventually to proto-Hellenic and proto-Germanic had already branched off somewhere along the Danube.

I suggest that in the upper Rhine, perhaps in the Black Forest area, there was a geographical separation between two branches of proto-Italo-Celtic. A south-western branch became proto-Italic, perhaps migrating down the Rhone valley and eventually into the Italian peninsula. A north-western branch continued to migrate down the Rhine to the mouth, by which time they were proto-Q-Celtic speakers who then migrated to Britain and Ireland, in association with the R-L21 Y haplogroup.

I think proto-P-Celtic developed later, perhaps in association with the Urnfield expansion. With the subsequent Hallstatt and La Tene cultures, P-Celtic languages may have replaced Q-Celtic languages everywhere except Ireland, which was protected by its isolation from continental Europe. That fits with R-L21 remaining most predominant in the west of Ireland, where it was least diluted by subsequent westward migrations.

I like the hypothetical Italo-Celtic gestation and split in the Black Forest/Upper Rhine region and corresponding to U152. Still only conjecture at this point though.

I was of the hypothesis that Italic Peoples migrated into Italy moreso from the Center (Bavaria) and/or East (Austria/Hungary) from U152 carriers who migrated back East along the Danube (from the original U152 core of the Black Forest region)
and that the U152 Rhone Beakers were more ancestral to the Ligurians and Golaseccans (and perhaps later Lepontics) who may have spoken para-celtic languages. I could be wrong and you could be more correct though. Who knows at this point.

Maybe Hallstatts were more linguistically (and culturally, politically) conservative and retained a sort of Italic language while Celtic represents a movement of innovation and Creole between U152, L21 and DF27 peoples who interacted mainly in present day France. I'm no linguist and am just brainstorming so take this with a grain of salt.