Interesting etymologic convergences between Spanish and English

[Maciamo]

I noticed that some words are shared between Spanish and English, bu aren't found in French, Italian languages.

1) Wade = vadear

To wade through water is a word that is said to come from the Anglo-Saxon wadan meaning "to go forward, proceed, move, stride, advance". It is found in Dutch (waden), Norwegian/Danish (vade), Swedish (vada) and German (waten).

Vadear means the same in Spanish and Portuguese (Catalan is vadejar) but the etymology dictionary has it come from the Latin vadum/vadus (a ford, which became vado in Spanish), itself derived from the verb vadere (to go).

Both the Latin and Germanic roots come from the Indo-European *wadh (to go), but interestingly both ended up meaning "passing through water at a ford" rather simply "go".


2) Towel = toalla


The word towel came from Old French toaille (12c.), from Frankish *thwahlja, from Proto-Germanic *thwahlijan (source also of Old Saxon thwahila). Yet it disappeared from moderne French (serviette in France, essuie in Belgium) and has no equivalent in modern Germanic languages.

Spanish got toalla and Poruguese toalha. Their etymology is said to be from the Old Germanic thubaljo through the Gothic twahl. The word is completely different in French and Italian (asciugamano).

Once again, a Germanic word ended up being used in English, Spanish and Portuguese with the same meaning, but through very different routes (English through French and Frankish, and Spanish/Portuguese through Gothic). I find that oddly satisfying and fascinating.

 

[bicicleur 2]

toile is still French, but it means cloth instead of towel

 

[Maciamo]

toile is still French, but it means cloth instead of towel

It doesn't have the same root. Toile comes from the Latin tela. The Latin and French both mean 'web', but the French also means cloth.

 

[MOESAN]

I noticed that some words are shared between Spanish and English, bu aren't found in French, Italian languages.

1) Wade = vadear

To wade through water is a word that is said to come from the Anglo-Saxon wadan meaning "to go forward, proceed, move, stride, advance". It is found in Dutch (waden), Norwegian/Danish (vade), Swedish (vada) and German (waten).

Vadear means the same in Spanish and Portuguese (Catalan is vadejar) but the etymology dictionary has it come from the Latin vadum/vadus (a ford, which became vado in Spanish), itself derived from the verb vadere (to go).

Both the Latin and Germanic roots come from the Indo-European *wadh (to go), but interestingly both ended up meaning "passing through water at a ford" rather simply "go".


2) Towel = toalla


The word towel came from Old French toaille (12c.), from Frankish *thwahlja, from Proto-Germanic *thwahlijan (source also of Old Saxon thwahila). Yet it disappeared from moderne French (serviette in France, essuie in Belgium) and has no equivalent in modern Germanic languages.

Spanish got toalla and Poruguese toalha. Their etymology is said to be from the Old Germanic thubaljo through the Gothic twahl. The word is completely different in French and Italian (asciugamano).

Once again, a Germanic word ended up being used in English, Spanish and Portuguese with the same meaning, but through very different routes (English through French and Frankish, and Spanish/Portuguese through Gothic). I find that oddly satisfying and fascinating.

Fench gué same root, but through Old Frankish wad, what explains the stage of *wé / gwé, then gué [ge]; if inherited directly from Latin it would have been **vé (#);

 

[Maciamo]

Here are words that have the same meaning in Spanish and English, but are not found in French or Italian (however the Spanish word is usually the same in Portuguese).

Spanish	English
aguardar	await
alistar	enlist
atender	attend
cuidar	care
estaca	stake
tedioso	tedious
tener que	have to

Aguardar, alistar and estaca are all of Germanic origin. Like for towel/toalla and wade/vadear the Anglo-Saxon word had an equivalent in Visigothic that made its way into modern Spanish.

Alistar/enlist is especially interesting as both come from the Germanic word list, but it appears that the verb evolved independently later into Spanish and English. French has the verb 'lister', but alistarse can be used with the meaning of enrol or recruit like the English enlist, while 'lister' in French only means 'make a list'.

Atender is from Latin attendere, meaning 'attend, pay attention, turn toward'. But the word has changed meaning in French (attendre) and Italian (attendere) and now means 'wait'. Even though the English comes from French it has kept (or reverted to) the Latin meaning, and as a result has the same meaning as in Spanish.

Tedioso and tedious come from Latin taediosus, but the word has disappeared from French and Italian.

Cuidar and care have completely different etymologies. Care is of Germanic origin. Cuidar is apparently a heavy corruption of the Latin cogitare (think, reflect, ponder), but has come to mean 'care'. Unless of course the etymology is wrong and cuidar comes from a Visigothic word related to care. That would make more sense.

Tener que literally means 'to have to' and is used in the same way to mean 'must'. Like in English, it is much more common in Spanish to use 'tener que' (have to) than 'deber' (must). In contrast French and Italian only have 'must' ('devoir' and 'dovere').

 

[MOESAN]

I would be very astonished if cuidar was cognate with care - the offical etymology seems very sound -
for tener que and to have to, French has also avoir à + V. (light obligation)

 

[Maciamo]

I would be very astonished if cuidar was cognate with care - the offical etymology seems very sound -

It doesn't seem so sound to me. Spanish is generally quite conservative in its spelling compared to French. Here is an illustration of what I mean:

Latin	Spanish	French
accapāre	acabar	achever
carnem	carne	chaire
caballus	caballo	cheval
capillus	cabello	cheveu
crescere	crecer	croître
coquina > cocīna	cocina	cuisine
mansionem	mansión	maison
avis	ave	oiseau
piscem	pez	poisson

A word like oiseau has undergone such transformation over time that it is barely recognisable from the Latin (avis > avicellus > aucellus > aucel > oisel > oiseau). In most cases Spanish words are closer to the original Latin.

It is almost always common everyday words that mutate a lot over time, as mutation happen in spoken language and were more frequent with words used by uneducated people in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Cogitare does not fit in that category. It is a term used by educated people (like philosophers). That's why it almost didn't change at all in French (cogiter), Portuguese (cogitar) or even Romanian (cugeta), and not at all in Italian (cogitare). I find it hard to believe that it mutated so much only in Spanish, and so much as to bear almost no resemblance to the original Latin. Only the C and the -ar ending are in common. What's more, cuidar means a lot of things (take care, pay attention, look after, guard, keep an eye on), but it does not mean anything close to cogitate or reflect.

So my reasoning is: why would a word that does not look like the Latin cogitare and does not mean anything like cogitare, be a corruption from cogitare in a language known to be conservative for its spelling and meanings?

for tener que and to have to, French has also avoir à + V. (light obligation)

I wonder if we speak the same French. Can you give me examples of sentences in which you use avoir à + verb with the meaning of devoir ? Let's try. Would you ever say:

- J'ai à aller faire les courses
- J'ai à trouver une place de parking
- Tu as à envoyer cette lettre
- Il a à étudier pour son examen

For me these are all wrong, and not just a little. The only sentence I could think of is 'J'ai à faire', but it means more 'I have things to do', which is really just the meaning to 'have' and not 'have to' or 'must'.

 

[AnthrogenicaMember]

It doesn't have the same root. Toile comes from the Latin tela. The Latin and French both mean 'web', but the French also means cloth.

What about toilette? Wouldn't that translate literally to "little towel"?

 

[MOESAN]

It doesn't seem so sound to me. Spanish is generally quite conservative in its spelling compared to French. Here is an illustration of what I mean:

Latin	Spanish	French
accapāre	acabar	achever
carnem	carne	chaire
caballus	caballo	cheval
capillus	cabello	cheveu
crescere	crecer	croître
coquina > cocīna	cocina	cuisine
mansionem	mansión	maison
avis	ave	oiseau
piscem	pez	poisson

A word like oiseau has undergone such transformation over time that it is barely recognisable from the Latin (avis > avicellus > aucellus > aucel > oisel > oiseau). In most cases Spanish words are closer to the original Latin.

It is almost always common everyday words that mutate a lot over time, as mutation happen in spoken language and were more frequent with words used by uneducated people in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Cogitare does not fit in that category. It is a term used by educated people (like philosophers). That's why it almost didn't change at all in French (cogiter), Portuguese (cogitar) or even Romanian (cugeta), and not at all in Italian (cogitare). I find it hard to believe that it mutated so much only in Spanish, and so much as to bear almost no resemblance to the original Latin. Only the C and the -ar ending are in common. What's more, cuidar means a lot of things (take care, pay attention, look after, guard, keep an eye on), but it does not mean anything close to cogitate or reflect.

So my reasoning is: why would a word that does not look like the Latin cogitare and does not mean anything like cogitare, be a corruption from cogitare in a language known to be conservative for its spelling and meanings?




I wonder if we speak the same French. Can you give me examples of sentences in which you use avoir à + verb with the meaning of devoir ? Let's try. Would you ever say:

- J'ai à aller faire les courses
- J'ai à trouver une place de parking
- Tu as à envoyer cette lettre
- Il a à étudier pour son examen

For me these are all wrong, and not just a little. The only sentence I could think of is 'J'ai à faire', but it means more 'I have things to do', which is really just the meaning to 'have' and not 'have to' or 'must'.

You 're right, I think. It can occur in some rare cases, but it is'nt correct.
It doesn't replace I must everytime. And not with the English syntax:
I don't find naturel to say: *J'ai à faire mes devoirs. I say rather: J'ai mes devoirs à faire.

 

[MOESAN]

You 're right, I think. It can occur in some rare cases, but it is'nt correct.
It doesn't replace I must everytime. And not with the English syntax:
I don't find naturel to say: *J'ai à faire mes devoirs. I say rather: J'ai mes devoirs à faire.

I answered too quickly: I thought my personal French was bad. But I read tonight in Larousse dictionary, about the verb "avoir":
J' ai à travailler.

 

[MOESAN]

I would be very astonished if cuidar was cognate with care - the offical etymology seems very sound -
for tener que and to have to, French has also avoir à + V. (light obligation)

cuidar:

[h=3]Etymology[/h]From Latin cogitāre, present active infinitive of cōgitō. Compare Old Occitan cuidar, Middle French cuider, Spanish cuidar. Doublet of cogitar, a borrowing from Latin.

[h=3]Pronunciation[/h]

• (Balearic, Central) IPA^(key): /kujˈda/
• (Valencian) IPA^(key): /kujˈdaɾ/
• Rhymes: -a(ɾ)

[h=3]Verb[/h]cuidar (first-person singular present cuido, past participle cuidat)

1. to think, to believe
2. to be about to do something, especially having an accident
3. to care for, to take care of

[h=1]care (n.)[/h]Old English caru, cearu "sorrow, anxiety, grief," also "burdens of mind; serious mental attention," in late Old English also "concern, anxiety caused by apprehension of evil or the weight of many burdens," from Proto-Germanic *karō "lament; grief, care" (source also of Old Saxon kara "sorrow;" Old High German chara "wail, lament;" Gothic kara "sorrow, trouble, care;" German Karfreitag "Good Friday;" see care (v.)).

Meaning "charge, oversight, attention or heed with a view to safety or protection" is attested from c. 1400; this is the sense in care of in addressing (1840). Meaning "object or matter of concern" is from 1580s. To take care of "take in hand, do" is from 1580s; take care "be careful" also is from 1580s.

The primary sense is that of inward grief, and the word is not connected, either in sense or form, with L. cura, care, of which the primary sense is pains or trouble bestowed upon something. [Century Dictionary]​

care (v.)

Old English carian, cearian "be anxious or solicitous; grieve; feel concern or interest," from Proto-Germanic *karo- "lament," hence "grief, care" (source also of Old Saxon karon "to lament, to care, to sorrow, complain," Old High German charon "complain, lament," Gothic karon "be anxious"), said to be from PIE root *gar- "cry out, call, scream" (source also of Irish gairm "shout, cry, call;" see garrulous).