G25 G25 Central, Eastern and South Eastern Europe Iron Age Calculator

Hawk said:
Why do you score so much, 10% Iberomaurusian?
Click to expand...

Iberomaurisians in modern Portugueses and Andalusians is very common, as Jovialis pointed out. Also, I'm Brazilian, a mix of colonial Portuguese, European Portuguese, Galician and Andalusian. From the colonial Portuguese I must have inherited ~3% SSA ancestry, which the Oracle Algorithms of ancient populations interpret as an Iberomaurisian heritage. In that sense my Iberoamaurisian must be bigger than the average of modern Portuguese, but not very bigger, as I can see. In Brazil the admixture of my ancestors with indigenous and Africans was not documented in my familiar registers, but that this occurred in some moment of my genetic history I have no doubts that occurred.
 
@Riverman, (ancestral north Africans) Iberomaurusian-like DNA is in fact a component of Natufians, who are a component of the Levant. These are West Eurasians, and indeed found in some Europeans, so I don't know what you are arguing here.

Are you trying to tell me, and everyone else here that it is not the case? Because I'm going to have to insist that it is.
 
Last edited:
Duarte said:
Iberomaurisians in modern Portugueses and Andalusians is very common, as Jovialis pointed out. Also, I'm Brazilian, a mix of colonial Portuguese, European Portuguese, Galician and Andalusian. From the colonial Portuguese I must have inherited ~3% SSA ancestry, which the Oracle Algorithms of ancient populations interpret as an Iberomaurisian heritage. In that sense my Iberoamaurisian must be bigger than the average of modern Portuguese, but not very bigger, as I can see. In Brazil the admixture of my ancestors with indigenous and Africans was not documented in my familiar registers, but that this occurred in some moment of my genetic history I have no doubts that occurred.
Click to expand...

If any calculator lacks SSA source then any deep ancient component gets assigned to it even if it's not real.
 
Jovialis said:
I tried my best to recreate the model, but this is the best I could do with the samples available. Some of them are indeed not there, like Sintashta. These samples are scaled:

Code: 
Bolshoy_Ostrov:RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o:BOO006,0.080814,-0.207168,0.120301,0.085272,-0.076322,-0.010598,0.003055,0.001846,0.002659,-0.03991,0.042708,-0.008692,0.019772,-0.04748,-0.015065,0.001193,0.000913,0.003547,-0.00176,-5e-04,0.000374,0.009274,0.000739,-0.009399,0.003233
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE546,0.106994,0.090382,0.058454,0.121126,-0.03139,0.04769,0.00188,-0.002769,-0.065243,-0.087291,-0.00341,0.000899,-0.000892,-0.023671,0.007057,0.011138,0.006258,0.005194,0,0.001501,-0.004118,-0.006801,0.029456,0.032053,-0.016645
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE547,0.119514,0.097491,0.045632,0.117896,-0.028005,0.038766,0.00517,-0.003692,-0.043359,-0.067974,-0.00406,0.001649,0.000743,-0.025598,0.035287,0.00411,-0.016168,0.002027,0.010056,0.006878,-0.003993,0.002226,0.007025,0.018316,-0.007424
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE550,0.124067,0.097491,0.046763,0.107237,-0.02185,0.042391,0.00094,-0.010615,-0.050313,-0.073441,0.006008,-0.004646,-0.005054,-0.01734,0.034473,0.01896,0.002477,-0.005701,0.002514,0.009254,-0.000125,0.00643,0.020952,0.01699,0.002275
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE552,0.106994,0.089367,0.035826,0.106914,-0.034468,0.052431,0.00564,-0.000462,-0.060335,-0.081824,-0.002761,0.001199,-0.001041,-0.025323,0.028501,0.019093,0.001565,-0.006334,-0.002891,0.013256,-0.000998,0.002226,0.010723,0.023256,-0.00479
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231,0.121791,0.083273,0.04714,0.114666,-0.032314,0.048527,0.002585,-0.003,-0.052358,-0.073623,0.00065,0.004796,0.000297,-0.023258,0.030401,0.019491,0.007041,-0.00114,-0.002388,0.015007,-0.004243,-0.002102,0.003697,0.011086,0.00012
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357,0.126344,0.092413,0.038089,0.107883,-0.029852,0.039324,0.00564,-0.008077,-0.043768,-0.065605,-0.001137,-0.00015,-0.003568,-0.024772,0.035287,0.01896,0.00013,0.003167,-0.005279,0.004877,0.003619,0.006925,0.008504,0.012532,-0.005269
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370,0.124067,0.08632,0.049403,0.111759,-0.027697,0.044623,0.00517,-0.000462,-0.066061,-0.066516,-0.002436,-0.00015,0.000297,-0.025735,0.03868,0.013789,0.000782,-0.000127,-0.005154,0.015758,0.001622,-0.0115,0.007025,0.021328,-0.003952
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429,0.130897,0.088351,0.044123,0.126617,-0.030467,0.050758,0.005875,0.003,-0.059516,-0.075992,0.000974,-0.008992,0.002081,-0.018717,0.039359,0.020949,0.004955,-0.000887,0.003897,0.022636,-0.005615,0.000495,0.020089,0.018798,-0.013651
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438,0.124067,0.085304,0.043369,0.119511,-0.032621,0.049643,0.0047,-0.000462,-0.065448,-0.078179,-0.003085,0.003897,-0.009366,-0.030965,0.029587,0.005569,0.005867,-0.005068,-0.006285,0.016383,-0.003868,0.000866,0.014543,0.022413,-0.006227
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443,0.124067,0.093429,0.039975,0.108206,-0.027082,0.045459,0.003995,-0.007154,-0.052563,-0.081642,0.001299,-3e-04,0.000595,-0.016515,0.044923,0.003978,-0.014212,-0.001394,-0.003771,0.013006,0.00262,0.000247,0.003944,0.018918,0.002036
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444,0.125205,0.08632,0.045632,0.119188,-0.024928,0.047969,0.00564,-0.001154,-0.050108,-0.073259,0.002598,0.002847,0,-0.042663,0.029451,0.022938,-0.000522,0.003294,-0.010307,0.013131,-0.015098,0.004204,0.010846,0.016267,0.003952
Catacomb:UKR_Catacomb:MJ09,0.118376,0.088351,0.05506,0.09367,-0.014772,0.041834,0.003995,0.004615,-0.050517,-0.063965,0.008444,0.005245,0.000446,-0.033305,0.040716,0.017104,-0.012256,-0.005448,-0.004022,0.012131,-0.000624,0.010634,0.005916,0.01446,0.005748
Catacomb:RUS_Catacomb:MK3003,0.114961,0.081242,0.039975,0.10336,-0.030159,0.0502,0.007755,-0.011538,-0.059721,-0.075628,0.008931,0.006444,-0.001487,-0.026286,0.03298,0.017502,0.008866,-0.005701,-0.00817,0.014257,-0.002496,0.001731,0.018117,0.030486,0.00479
Catacomb:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001,0.120652,0.093429,0.036958,0.0969,-0.028005,0.037092,-0.00047,-0.008769,-0.051949,-0.06925,-0.004872,0.002847,0.007433,-0.013625,0.042345,-0.010872,-0.022948,-0.005321,-0.004651,0.002251,0,-0.003215,0.013311,0.018798,-0.012933
Nordic_BA:DNK_BA:RISE47,0.105855,0.139128,0.071653,0.053295,0.024004,0.029284,-0.00188,0.002308,0.000409,-0.010205,0.000812,0.002698,-0.007433,-0.023946,0.014251,0.013259,0.00691,0.013302,0.01169,0.008004,0.030696,-0.018672,-0.002958,-0.002289,0.000239
Nordic_BA:SWE_BA:RISE175,0.119514,0.142174,0.073916,0.062016,0.031083,0.011156,0.012691,0.015692,0.011658,-0.003645,-0.001624,-0.006744,-0.007879,-0.009634,0.014794,0.024794,0.018775,-0.006334,-0.01081,-0.00075,-0.001497,0.002844,0.006532,-0.011568,0.000359
Halstatt/Early_Le_Tene:FRA_Alsace_IA1:NOR2B6,0.127482,0.150298,0.047894,0.009044,0.044624,0.002789,-0.015511,0.010153,0.018816,0.018588,0.012991,0.019183,-0.001784,-0.00812,0.013979,0.01538,0.026859,0.004054,0.004525,0.003627,-0.000499,-0.006925,-0.004807,-0.000241,-0.012214
Remedello:ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487,0.124067,0.162485,0.041106,-0.045866,0.075706,-0.025658,-0.0094,0.011769,0.05154,0.096403,-0.010068,0.01079,-0.031367,-0.016652,-0.017779,-0.000663,0.013038,0.00266,0.017095,-0.018384,0.009733,0.008779,-0.019596,-0.018436,-0.004431
Remedello:ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489,0.121791,0.173656,0.041106,-0.062662,0.07663,-0.028726,-0.00564,0.004384,0.059925,0.079637,-0.006171,0.017534,-0.030773,-0.013212,-0.021172,-0.008353,0.00691,0.004561,0.015712,-0.006003,-0.003743,-0.003462,-0.012941,-0.026992,-0.007903
C_Italian_ChL:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA:RMPR4,0.126344,0.179749,0.02753,-0.070091,0.065551,-0.023985,-0.00047,-0.004384,0.051745,0.092576,-0.001949,0.01124,-0.029732,-0.003165,-0.023208,-0.005436,0.010431,0.002914,0.010307,-0.007629,-0.004866,0.004328,-0.011585,-0.018677,-0.000838
C_Italian_ChL:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA:RMPR5,0.126344,0.19092,0.036958,-0.070414,0.072937,-0.032072,0.00047,-0.001154,0.053994,0.100048,-0.003085,0.010341,-0.027354,-0.003441,-0.022258,-0.013126,0.000782,0.00228,0.011439,-0.01138,0.004742,-0.001855,-0.011462,-0.018918,-0.003952
C_Italian_ChL:ITA_Monte_San_Biagio_CA:RMPR1014,0.121791,0.179749,0.031678,-0.061047,0.072321,-0.028726,-0.00893,-0.002769,0.049495,0.092394,0.004384,0.013788,-0.0278,-0.005505,-0.019001,-0.001724,0.0103,0.002407,0.003394,-0.011756,0.009358,0.010634,-0.0053,-0.033258,0.001676
C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR2,0.126344,0.183811,0.004525,-0.083334,0.056934,-0.047969,-0.01081,-0.013846,0.045404,0.088749,0.006171,0.016635,-0.020664,-0.01156,-0.035152,0.003845,0.035725,0.002914,-0.000251,-0.007629,-0.017968,0.005317,-0.008011,-0.010604,-0.012693
C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR3,0.118376,0.186857,0.007542,-0.094316,0.055703,-0.042391,-0.011986,-0.004615,0.043359,0.089113,0.010068,0.012739,-0.0278,-0.007432,-0.033523,-0.014187,0.016168,0.005574,0.014832,-0.016008,-0.013975,0.005193,-0.002711,0.005784,-0.008502
C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8,0.120652,0.182795,0.011691,-0.082042,0.053856,-0.042112,-0.00376,-0.007615,0.042336,0.08638,-0.003735,0.011989,-0.02334,-0.002615,-0.034202,-0.016971,0.005476,-0.002154,0.008925,-0.014007,-0.005989,0.006801,-0.003821,-0.006145,0.00479
C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR9,0.120652,0.186857,0.003017,-0.097546,0.052933,-0.046296,-0.001175,-0.011307,0.044995,0.08146,0.007795,0.01139,-0.022299,0.006193,-0.042752,-0.014054,0.01695,-0.00266,0.009176,-0.011005,-0.014474,0.004575,0.002588,0.000964,-0.000359
C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR10,0.125205,0.180764,0.014708,-0.093993,0.057241,-0.046017,-0.00141,-0.003231,0.041927,0.0831,0.01153,0.015586,-0.02557,-0.008395,-0.034744,-0.015115,0.022948,0.004054,0.010559,-0.016508,-0.011729,-0.001113,-0.00037,-0.008435,0.005987
C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR16,0.120652,0.174671,0.019233,-0.068799,0.06432,-0.041555,-0.001645,0.003692,0.039882,0.086744,0.001624,0.019782,-0.029583,-0.007707,-0.022665,0.00053,0.019036,0.011529,0.013701,-0.004752,0.001248,0.011871,-0.015283,-0.017954,0.006107
C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR18,0.126344,0.176702,0.004148,-0.085272,0.046162,-0.037371,-0.002115,0.001154,0.047654,0.085833,0.001949,0.018284,-0.034935,0.003028,-0.032573,-0.01127,0.005215,-0.00076,0.006159,-0.014632,-0.006738,0.002349,-0.003204,-0.023136,-0.003952
C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR19,0.130897,0.175687,0.012068,-0.07106,0.065551,-0.037092,-0.005405,-0.002308,0.039269,0.086744,-0.002436,0.007643,-0.025124,-0.014175,-0.024158,0.003315,0.023991,0.002534,0.004274,0.005002,-0.008485,-0.002226,-0.009983,-0.019521,0.000599
Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08,0.1161,0.170609,-0.018479,-0.091732,0.028005,-0.033188,0.003995,-0.002769,0.021066,0.060685,0.00747,0.007643,-0.01665,0.010046,-0.03583,-0.02254,0,0.005954,0.009176,-0.009755,-0.009483,0.006059,-0.006902,-0.004217,0.002395
Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070,0.121791,0.174671,-0.028284,-0.093993,0.035699,-0.043786,-0.00564,-0.001385,0.003886,0.059956,0.008119,0.016036,-0.018583,-0.001789,-0.027144,-0.00769,0.024773,-0.000507,0.005782,-0.004627,-0.010482,0.003462,-0.005669,0.003374,-0.007065
Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071,0.114961,0.167562,-0.016216,-0.088502,0.033237,-0.038487,-0.00188,-0.00923,0.002454,0.056129,0.002761,0.011839,-0.024678,-0.002064,-0.037187,-0.009281,0.02034,-0.00152,0.007793,-0.010255,-0.013601,0.009769,-0.007395,0.005663,-0.002634
Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073,0.118376,0.168578,-0.011691,-0.093993,0.022158,-0.034582,-0.00423,-0.002769,0.013703,0.065423,0.003735,0.013788,-0.023637,0.008808,-0.04343,-0.012331,0.016298,-0.007601,0.008925,-0.025637,-0.01123,0.010758,-0.006039,-0.005422,0.000359
Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074,0.117238,0.164516,-0.016593,-0.096254,0.025235,-0.044623,0.000705,-0.005077,0.01493,0.060685,0.005196,0.013338,-0.02334,-0.003165,-0.042209,-0.022142,0.004955,0.003674,0.00905,-0.018009,-0.018093,0.007048,-0.010599,-0.006507,0.002275
Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005,0.124067,0.177718,-0.018102,-0.097223,0.03139,-0.03765,0.004465,0.001154,0.016771,0.056858,-0.004872,0.021581,-0.035381,-0.002064,-0.037323,-0.003315,0.020601,-0.000253,0.012821,-0.00963,-0.013476,0.010881,0.004314,-0.00241,-0.005149
Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130,0.126344,0.191935,-0.012822,-0.081073,0.051702,-0.036814,-0.005405,0.006923,0.01309,0.056129,0.011854,0.025028,-0.007879,-0.001651,-0.029858,-0.004243,0.004433,0.014569,0.01257,-0.029764,0.007986,-0.00915,-0.010969,-0.006507,-0.01437
Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131,0.133173,0.17264,-0.006411,-0.106268,0.03693,-0.047411,-0.006345,-0.000692,0.001841,0.052484,-0.008769,3e-04,-0.024678,-0.014726,-0.023751,0.00411,0.021644,-0.00152,0.024008,0.005753,-0.011355,0.011252,-0.016022,0.019882,-0.013891
Anatolia_BA:TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2495,0.113823,0.1635,-0.035072,-0.081073,0.002462,-0.024263,0.00188,-0.007615,-0.009817,0.032802,0.003248,0.004796,-0.019475,0.003853,-0.024973,0.006099,0.022296,-0.002534,0.008422,0.006378,-0.007612,0.000618,0.002095,-0.009037,0.000958
Anatolia_BA:TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2499,0.117238,0.152329,-0.04186,-0.077843,-0.008925,-0.025658,-0.000235,-0.004846,-0.015544,0.030251,0.010718,0.002098,-0.004014,-0.011973,-0.021715,0.007823,0.028424,-0.003294,0.008045,-0.002751,-0.004367,-0.00643,0.005176,-0.002048,0.001557
Anatolia_BA:TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2683,0.112685,0.161469,-0.043746,-0.081719,-0.00677,-0.024263,-0.00141,0.000923,-0.009408,0.035901,0.006496,0.003597,-0.014569,-0.001651,-0.020901,-0.004243,0.01356,-0.00152,0.004651,-0.005753,-0.001373,-0.003833,-0.005546,0.001446,-0.009221
Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt:TAF009,-0.162767,0.07718,-0.024513,-0.079135,0.009848,-0.047969,-0.052877,0.020538,0.13294,0.002005,0.025333,-0.026676,0.057978,-0.052985,0.072882,-0.034076,0.002347,-0.05625,-0.130475,0.04152,-0.026204,-0.120314,0.067909,-0.016508,0.012334
Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt:TAF010,-0.193499,0.083273,-0.03017,-0.088502,0.034776,-0.055499,-0.076378,0.019384,0.163619,0.008565,0.02111,-0.030573,0.07879,-0.046104,0.077496,-0.046141,-0.00665,-0.069805,-0.144176,0.036518,-0.042924,-0.129217,0.07629,-0.015303,0.018322
Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt:TAF011,-0.194638,0.085304,-0.021873,-0.088825,0.026774,-0.059961,-0.072148,0.019845,0.161165,0.002551,0.016564,-0.035818,0.080574,-0.051196,0.066367,-0.037523,0.012126,-0.071199,-0.14493,0.035767,-0.041427,-0.12662,0.068279,-0.011447,0.018441
Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt:TAF013,-0.196914,0.082258,-0.026398,-0.088502,0.032314,-0.057173,-0.074733,0.017768,0.156665,0.002369,0.02111,-0.036717,0.077898,-0.052159,0.072746,-0.038584,0.000913,-0.069552,-0.141285,0.039894,-0.035687,-0.125384,0.075428,-0.011206,0.020477
Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt:TAF014,-0.201467,0.079211,-0.018479,-0.083011,0.034468,-0.055499,-0.076848,0.014538,0.162596,0.002005,0.020461,-0.029374,0.078344,-0.054223,0.066503,-0.025192,0.017602,-0.063724,-0.151215,0.04127,-0.042176,-0.126126,0.077153,-0.014339,0.012693
Click to expand...

Here we are :)

Distance to:G25_Stuvanè_scaled
0.08330617Halstatt/Early_Le_Tene:FRA_Alsace_IA1:NOR2B6
0.10511700Anatolia_BA:TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2495
0.10629135Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:pta08
0.10735514Anatolia_BA:TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2683
0.10943148Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
0.11355801Anatolia_BA:TUR_Isparta_EBA:I2499
0.11359808Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130
0.11542441Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073
0.11599088Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074
0.12001009Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
0.12042924Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005
0.12052619C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR16
0.12148440C_Italian_ChL:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA:RMPR4
0.12155104C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8
0.12260218Nordic_BA:SWE_BA:RISE175
0.12262849C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR19
0.12269093Nordic_BA:DNK_BA:RISE47
0.12309203Remedello:ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489
0.12373592C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR18
0.12422560Remedello:ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
0.12463250C_Italian_ChL:ITA_Monte_San_Biagio_CA:RMPR1014
0.12645028Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131
0.13281207C_Italian_ChL:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA:RMPR5
0.13354661C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR10
0.13646955C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR9

Target: G25_Stuvanè_scaled
Distance: 0.0209% / 0.02090802 | ADC: 0.25x RC

39.8Minoan
29.6Catacomb
22.0C_Italian_ChL
8.6Nordic_BA

Target: G25_Stuvanè_scaled
Distance: 0.0201% / 0.02013220

37.4Minoan
27.9C_Italian_ChL
17.9Yamnaya
16.3Catacomb
0.5Nordic_BA

Distance to:G25_Stuvanè_scaled
0.0288120236.20% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443 + 63.80% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8
0.0294621338.00% Catacomb:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001 + 62.00% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8
0.0296777336.60% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443 + 63.40% C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR18
0.0298802738.40% Catacomb:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001 + 61.60% C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR18
0.0326235434.60% Catacomb:UKR_Catacomb:MJ09 + 65.40% Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:pta08
0.0333016833.40% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE547 + 66.60% Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:pta08
0.0333919837.20% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE547 + 62.80% C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR18
0.0333992936.80% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE547 + 63.20% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8
0.0340288837.80% Catacomb:UKR_Catacomb:MJ09 + 62.20% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8
0.0342547639.00% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443 + 61.00% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR9
0.0342917740.80% Catacomb:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001 + 59.20% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR9
0.0343625338.20% Catacomb:UKR_Catacomb:MJ09 + 61.80% C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR18
0.0347911835.20% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE552 + 64.80% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8
0.0349536932.60% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443 + 67.40% Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:pta08
0.0351736146.00% Nordic_BA:DNK_BA:RISE47 + 54.00% Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:pta08
0.0353192135.40% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370 + 64.60% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8
0.0357559140.20% Catacomb:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001 + 59.80% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR10
0.0359694833.80% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429 + 66.20% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8
0.0360133335.60% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE552 + 64.40% C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR18
0.0360313035.80% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370 + 64.20% C_Italian_N:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N:RMPR18
0.0360348437.80% Catacomb:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001 + 62.20% C_Italian_ChL:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA:RMPR4
0.0362700434.20% Catacomb:RUS_Catacomb:RK4001 + 65.80% Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:pta08
0.0364094333.20% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE550 + 66.80% Minoan:GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:pta08
0.0364322336.60% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE550 + 63.40% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8
0.0365380939.60% Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia:RISE547 + 60.40% C_Italian_N:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR9
 
Jovialis said:
@Riverman, (ancestral north Africans) Iberomaurusian-like DNA is in fact a component of Natufians, who are a component of the Levant. These are West Eurasians, and indeed found in some Europeans, so I don't know what you are arguing here.

Are you trying to tell me, and everyone else here that it is not the case? Because I'm going to have to insist that it is.
Click to expand...

Iberomaurusian are not ancestral to Natufians, at the best for this idea, they both have a common Ancient North Afrian admixture, but its trace levels in Natufians and 1/3-1/2 in IBM. This is absolutely evident if I do a global PCA which included non-European references, I barely get them on the screenshot and all the European get pressed in a corner:

Global-PCA-2.jpg


https://ibb.co/HC9KRJ0

You can also see that Iranian and Natufian plot pretty similar on the Subsaharan <-> European cline, because the main factor for the relative position is the Basal Eurasian ancestry. Also Yamnaya is on such a PCA somewhat closer to East Asian, even without direct, significant admixture from actual East Asians, just Ancient North Eurasian ancestry which was phenotypically and genetically differentiated, just like Basal Eurasian was.


Zoomed on the European components you suggested:

Global-PCA3.jpg


https://ibb.co/PNkMgG6
 
Riverman said:
Iberomaurusian are not ancestral to Natufians, at the best for this idea, they both have a common Ancient North Afrian admixture, but its trace levels in Natufians and 1/3-1/2 in IBM. This is absolutely evident if I do a global PCA which included non-European references, I barely get them on the screenshot and all the European get pressed in a corner:

Global-PCA-2.jpg


https://ibb.co/HC9KRJ0

You can also see that Iranian and Natufian plot pretty similar on the Subsaharan <-> European cline, because the main factor for the relative position is the Basal Eurasian ancestry. Also Yamnaya is on such a PCA somewhat closer to East Asian, even without direct, significant admixture from actual East Asians, just Ancient North Eurasian ancestry which was phenotypically and genetically differentiated, just like Basal Eurasian was.


Zoomed on the European components you suggested:

Global-PCA3.jpg


https://ibb.co/PNkMgG6
Click to expand...

27% ANA is trace to you?!

udtkyX3.png


Also, the zoom you have on the PCA you made is irrelevant.
 
Also, CHG/IN and Natufian are pulled in completely different directions when you see them in 3D.




Because CHG is enriched by ANE, and Natufian is enriched by ANA. CHG/IN is NOT on the SSA cline towards ANA, so I don't know where you're getting that from.
 
Jovialis said:
27% ANA is trace to you?!
Click to expand...

I saw very different models which proposed a high Basal Eurasian and minor ANA. The question is whether Basal Eurasian is real and the main non more WHG-like/West Eurasian contribution or not. Without having actual earlier samples, and proving/disproving Basal Eurasian, all these models are just speculative.

We obtain the highest estimates in the earliest populations from both Iran (66?13% in the likely Mesolithic sample, 48?6% in Neolithic samples), and the Levant (44?8% in Epipaleolithic Natufians)
Click to expand...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/

Eventually, by the time of the Bronze Age, the three farmer groups mixed together and with the European hunter-gatherers, reducing the initial genetic differentiation between those groups (Broushaki, et al. 2016; Lazaridis, et al. 2016). Also the ancient Iberomaurusians specimens could be in part descendants of basal Eurasians (van de Loosdrecht, et al. 2018), as they have a shared genetic affinity with early Holocene Near Easterners (best proxy are the Natufians) and one-third of input from sub-Saharan Africans (a mixture between west and east Africans). Thus, so far, southwestern Asia is still the most probable homeland for the hypothetical basal Eurasian population, although a more precise location is still difficult to pinpoint.
Click to expand...

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10....BZorGeo7NLe7-nzQ9zQkhFXJh3SPw45u4_KxdBqTr559U

The funny thing is, you can model IBM with Natufians and Natufians with IBM, but ultimately both might have a common source not ideally represented by either of them. Therefore we need to find the ultimate source, not talking about two descendents and as if they did produce each other, which they did not. They are more like brothers than parents-children.

We could bombard each other with quotations which propose the exact opposite, from papers of the last 6 or so years, but it won't change anything as long as no new samples show up which help us to determine the exact age of the Natufian-like component in the Near East and the common ancestor of IBM-Natufian or even better the ultimate Basal Eurasian source.
 
Riverman said:
I saw very different models which proposed a high Basal Eurasian and minor ANA. The question is whether Basal Eurasian is real and the main non more WHG-like/West Eurasian contribution or not. Without having actual earlier samples, and proving/disproving Basal Eurasian, all these models are just speculative.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/



https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10....BZorGeo7NLe7-nzQ9zQkhFXJh3SPw45u4_KxdBqTr559U

The funny thing is, you can model IBM with Natufians and Natufians with IBM, but ultimately both might have a common source not ideally represented by either of them. Therefore we need to find the ultimate source, not talking about two descendents and as if they did produce each other, which they did not. They are more like brothers than parents-children.

We could bombard each other with quotations which propose the exact opposite, from papers of the last 6 or so years, but it won't change anything as long as no new samples show up which help us to determine the exact age of the Natufian-like component in the Near East and the common ancestor of IBM-Natufian or even better the ultimate Basal Eurasian source.
Click to expand...

Okay, fair enough, but I am putting my stock in what Lazaridis says in the 2018 pre-print, because I see it consistent with what my own analysis shows.
 
Jovialis said:
Look, what do you want, for me to ignore what this pre-print says, in favor of your PCA? Sorry, but it is not going to happen.
Click to expand...

The PCA is correct, its just how to interpret and explain it. IBM is far outside of the usual European range because of the huge ANA admixture Natufians don't have. They have only single digits, probably trace levels. But like I wrote above, this is up to future samples to close the case. As long as they don't have the ultimate source of Basal Eurasian/IBM/Natufian ancestry, its all conjecture. What's safe is however that Natufians don't have anywhere near as much ANA/SSA-like ancestry as IBM does, which will show on any global PCA anybody would create, in a proper way. You just need to add a Subsaharan reference to get it right. Any.
 
Riverman said:
The PCA is correct, its just how to interpret and explain it. IBM is far outside of the usual European range because of the huge ANA admixture Natufians don't have. They have only single digits, probably trace levels. But like I wrote above, this is up to future samples to close the case.
Click to expand...

Natufians did not, they had 27% according to the Lazaridis model.

Natufians are intermediate between TAF (Iberomarusian) and Levant_N on PCAs I have created. This is consistent with the Lazaridis Pre-Print. That takes a lot more than just trace amounts.

What makes the Levant unique is that they have this critical mass of ANA.

Also, I am not understanding the standard you are going by, "usual European range" we are talking about ultimate source populations, so I don't see why you're hung up on this.
 
Jovialis said:
Natufians did not, they had 27% according to the Lazaridis model.

Natufians are intermediate between TAF (Iberomarusian) and Levant_N on PCAs I have created. This is consistent with the Lazaridis Pre-Print. That takes a lot more than just trace amounts.

What makes the Levant unique is that they have this critical mass of ANA.

Also, I am not understanding the standard you are going by, "usual European range" we are talking about ultimate source populations, so I don't see why you're hung up on this.
Click to expand...

Siberian Nganasan is another exotic contribution, that falls "outside usual European range" but it is absolutely necessary to model post-IA Northern and Eastern Europeans. Just because they don't fit in the PCA you made, does not suspend this reality.
 
These individuals take my side:

Iosif Lazaridis1,2, Anna Belfer-Cohen3, Swapan Mallick1, Nick Patterson24 , OliviaCheronet4,5,6, Nadin Rohland1, Guy Bar-Oz7, Ofer Bar-Yosef8, Nino Jakeli95 , ElisoKvavadze9, David Lordkipanidze9, Zinovi Matzkevich10, Tengiz Meshveliani96 , Brendan J.Culleton11, Douglas J. Kennett11, Ron Pinhasi4 §, David Reich1,2,
 
Jovialis said:
Natufians did not, they had 27% according to the Lazaridis model.

Natufians are intermediate between TAF (Iberomarusian) and Levant_N on PCAs I have created. This is consistent with the Lazaridis Pre-Print. That takes a lot more than just trace amounts.

What makes the Levant unique is that they have this critical mass of ANA.

Also, I am not understanding the standard you are going by, "usual European range" we are talking about ultimate source populations, so I don't see why you're hung up on this.
Click to expand...

Because the extra-European creates a different PCA which presses otherwise distinct groups on the European level in a corner.
IBM is primarily relevant for some South Western groups, other Europeans pick it just up at trace levels if at all.
I usually concentrate on Central, Eastern and South Eastern Europe, where its not really relevant. In the calculator its included anyway.

Models are just models, I want new samples to prove the case.
Btw, the new African ancient DNA might help a bit indirectly. We'll see.
 
Jovialis said:
Natufians did not, they had 27% according to the Lazaridis model.

Natufians are intermediate between TAF (Iberomarusian) and Levant_N on PCAs I have created. This is consistent with the Lazaridis Pre-Print. That takes a lot more than just trace amounts.

What makes the Levant unique is that they have this critical mass of ANA.

Also, I am not understanding the standard you are going by, "usual European range" we are talking about ultimate source populations, so I don't see why you're hung up on this.
Click to expand...

that is significant
ANA component
it probably entered there gene pools
when e1b1b1 migrated to the levant in late mesolithic:unsure:
 
Jovialis said:
HOW? Natufian look 27% Iberomaurusian like there too...
Click to expand...

Also in 3D, you can clearly see CHG is shifted towards ANE...

Look at the GREAT many of "Iran", also Iran-what? They changed over time too. Those "iran" samples are modern. Just look at the legend.
 
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