Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26

Thread: E1b1b proto Illyrian haplogroup

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    E1b1b proto Illyrian haplogroup

    To explain the title immediately. My thesis is that the proto Illyrian haplogroup must have been the haplogroup E1b1b without a doubt, and there are several reasons. The Illyrians were a people that almost all ancient authors place on the territory of today's modern Albania. Taulanti, Parthini, Enheleji and Dassareti are mentioned as the four most original Illyrian tribes, all four tribes correspond to the region in which the haplogroup E1b1b V13 still predominates today.
    The second reason is, the fact that the Illyrians migrated from the area of modern Albania to present-day modern Apulia, where they were later known as the Messapians, if we look at the map of the haplogroup E1b1b in today's Italy, we will see that the majority of this haplogroup is located in the area where they once inhabited Messapians. It is proof that the E1b1b haplogroup arrived in modern Apulia from the Illyrians, and that the Illyrians must have been E1b1b, it is also proof that E1b1b was dominant and present in the territory of Albania and in the early Illyrian ethnogenesis in which the 4 above mentioned tribes are mentioned. I do not believe that the Proto-Illyrians came to the Balkans from the steppe, but came from Anatolia. This is indicated by many facts and evidence, even the etymology of the Illyrian name itself which comes from the Hittite serpent Illuyanka which has a meaning from the Proto-Indo-European word * h₁illu- i *, meaning snake. The whole myth of the Illyrians is connected with the snake, which was the main cult of worship. Haplogroup J2b, which is considered Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian, has nothing to do with the southern Illyrian tribes that ancient authors consider original. Haplogroup J2b is associated with the northern Illyrian tribes, who are not really Illyrian for we know that the northern Illyrian tribes are considered Illyrians only because they found themselves in the Roman military organization of Illyrik (Illyria). I could now write for a year about all the evidence and arguments that the Proto-Illyrians came from Anatolia, but that is a story for another topic.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-07-17
    Posts
    102

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b L283 PH1602

    Country: United States



    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    To explain the title immediately. My thesis is that the proto Illyrian haplogroup must have been the haplogroup E1b1b without a doubt, and there are several reasons. The Illyrians were a people that almost all ancient authors place on the territory of today's modern Albania. Taulanti, Parthini, Enheleji and Dassareti are mentioned as the four most original Illyrian tribes, all four tribes correspond to the region in which the haplogroup E1b1b V13 still predominates today.
    The second reason is, the fact that the Illyrians migrated from the area of modern Albania to present-day modern Apulia, where they were later known as the Messapians, if we look at the map of the haplogroup E1b1b in today's Italy, we will see that the majority of this haplogroup is located in the area where they once inhabited Messapians. It is proof that the E1b1b haplogroup arrived in modern Apulia from the Illyrians, and that the Illyrians must have been E1b1b, it is also proof that E1b1b was dominant and present in the territory of Albania and in the early Illyrian ethnogenesis in which the 4 above mentioned tribes are mentioned. I do not believe that the Proto-Illyrians came to the Balkans from the steppe, but came from Anatolia. This is indicated by many facts and evidence, even the etymology of the Illyrian name itself which comes from the Hittite serpent Illuyanka which has a meaning from the Proto-Indo-European word * h₁illu- i *, meaning snake. The whole myth of the Illyrians is connected with the snake, which was the main cult of worship. Haplogroup J2b, which is considered Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian, has nothing to do with the southern Illyrian tribes that ancient authors consider original. Haplogroup J2b is associated with the northern Illyrian tribes, who are not really Illyrian for we know that the northern Illyrian tribes are considered Illyrians only because they found themselves in the Roman military organization of Illyrik (Illyria). I could now write for a year about all the evidence and arguments that the Proto-Illyrians came from Anatolia, but that is a story for another topic.
    Given the ancient L283 samples that we have throughout the western Balkans and the Adriatic coast of Italy (Daunia), I’d like to personally congratulate you on managing to produce, quite possibly, the dumbest post I’ve seen in 10+ years of frequenting this forum.

    And please, for the love of God, don’t lecture us about how proto Illyrians come from Anatolia. Although I’m sure it would be quite entertaining.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    S obzirom na drevne uzorke L283 koje imamo širom zapadnog Balkana i jadranske obale Italije (Daunia), želio bih vam osobno čestitati što ste uspjeli proizvesti, vrlo moguće, najgluplju objavu koju sam vidio u 10+ godina posjećivanja ovog foruma.

    Molim vas, za ime božje, nemojte nam držati predavanja o tome kako proto Iliri dolaze iz Anadolije. Iako sam siguran da bi bilo prilično zabavno.
    Muka mi je od tvojih gluposti da je haplogrupa J2b bila protoilirska. Prvo, uzorci J2b koje imamo sa Zapadnog Balkana potječu prvenstveno iz Hrvatske, polazite od pogrešne pretpostavke da su Iliri naseljavali Dalmaciju i Hercegovinu, lažna je pretpostavka! Svi antički autori smještaju Ilire na teritorij moderne Albanije, pitanje je koliko imamo uzoraka J2b iz vremena rane ilirske etnogeneze s područja Albanije? Znaš li ? Drugi misle, uzorci J2b sa Zapadnog Balkana nisu dovoljni, premalo ih je, uostalom postoje i uzorci i haplogrupe E1b1b i I2a1. Treće, mislim da genetika nije dovoljna za zaključak, trebali bismo se koncentrirati i na arheologiju, lingvistiku, mitologiju, etimologiju, a sve to govori da su Proto-Iliri došli iz Male Azije. Niti jedan arheološki dokaz ne povezuje južna ilirska plemena sa stepom, ovdje govorim o 4 spomenuta plemena. Te bajke napisane na eupediji samo su teorije i teze koje nikad nisu dokazane.
    Morate znati da maciamo nije genetičar ili stručnjak već amater poput vas i mene. Ono što on piše nije sveto pismo.
    Nemam puno vremena da vam objašnjavam zašto mislim da su Proto-Iliri došli iz Male Azije, ali ako hoćete, objasnit ću vam to.

    Vjerojatno znate za mitologiju Ilira, a trojanske Dardance povezane s plemenom Dardanaca na Kosovu. Ilirska plemena u Albaniji duboko su povezana s Malom Azijom.
    Za tebe je to glupost jer nemaš znanja. Proučavao sam te stvari dok niste znali da Iliri postoje. Uostalom, stranci nas u Hrvatskoj neće učiti odakle su naši preci. Ovdje morate biti u formi da biste mogli pisati o tome.











  4. #4
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    1,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133379
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ancient DNA begs to differ. And J2b-L283 is very common in Albanians. Mostly in fact. I do believe Illyrians will have E-V13, and even R1b-L23. However, there is no question J2b-L283 is the Proto-Illyrian/Illyrian haplogroup at this point. And Anatolia has nothing to do with it.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-05-15
    Posts
    274

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Apart from the Anatolian origin instead of Steppe part in your post, I don't really disagree. We just really need more samples from Albania proper, ideally. The upcoming Lazaridis paper will give us some insight, but as far as I know it won't really have that many samples from Albania iirc, although it has quite a nice bunch from North Macedonia and even some from Montenegro.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Drevni DNK traži razliku. A J2b-L283 je vrlo čest kod Albanaca. Uglavnom zapravo. Vjerujem da će Iliri imati E-V13, pa čak i R1b-L23. Međutim, nema sumnje da je J2b-L283 proto-ilirska/ilirska haplogrupa u ovom trenutku. A Anadolija s tim nema nikakve veze.
    Haplogroup J2b is strong in Albania, that is not disputable, but haplogroup J2b arrived in Albania in the same way as it arrived in Croatia, Serbia or Bulgaria. In fact we have a big problem, because no one has yet proven 100% that haplogroup J2b arrived in the Balkans via the steppe, there is a possibility that it also reached the Balkans via a route from Asia Minor. That the haplogroup j2b arrived in the Balkans from the steppe is just a theory,it is neither a conclusion nor a fact.

    One more thing. There are genetic findings that confirm the presence of haplogroup E1b1b in Albania in the Neolithic. It is very possible that members of the haplogroup E1b1b influenced the early ethnogenesis of the Proto-Illyrians that developed among members of the haplogroup J2b. This is also possible.

    Mythology, archeology and etymology of the Illyrians does not support the thesis of haplogroup J2b. We in the steppes have nothing to indicate any traces of early Illyrian ethnogenesis, but we have in Anadolia. The Dardanian tribe did not come from the steppe but from Anatolia. Megalithic culture in the Balkans did not come from the steppe but from Anatolia. The name "Illyrians" did not come to the Balkans from the steppe but from Anatolia.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Drevni DNK traži razliku. A J2b-L283 je vrlo čest kod Albanaca. Uglavnom zapravo. Vjerujem da će Iliri imati E-V13, pa čak i R1b-L23. Međutim, nema sumnje da je J2b-L283 proto-ilirska/ilirska haplogrupa u ovom trenutku. A Anadolija s tim nema nikakve veze.
    And one a question for you and for everybody.If the haplogroup j2b was a proto-Illyrian haplogroup why we do not find this haplogroup predominantly among Messapians ?

    Indeed, in the region where the Messapians once lived, the haplogroup E1b1b predominates.
    Isn't everything clear ? Proto-Illyrians brought haplogroup E1b1b from the eastern Adriatic coast to today's modern Puglia. We know for sure that the haplogroup E1b1b has been present in modern Albania since the Neolithic, it may mean that they are Illyrian tribes like Taulantii, Enchele, Dassarets are haplogroup carriers E1b1b.

    However we must first define who the Illyrians were and which tribes were exactly Illyrian. The tribes north of Shkodra lake were probably not Illyrian, it is also considered by modern experts, so who really were the carriers of J2b ?

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Osim anadolskog podrijetla umjesto stepskog dijela u vašem postu, ne slažem se zapravo. Samo nam treba više uzoraka iz same Albanije, idealno. Nadolazeći Lazaridisov rad će nam dati malo uvida, ali koliko ja znam neće baš imati toliko uzoraka iz Albanije iirc, iako ima prilično lijepu gomilu iz Sjeverne Makedonije, pa čak i neke iz Crne Gore.
    Which will give you more evidence than apulia itself ? I have already written about it. The large presence of haplogroup E1b1b in modern Puglia is evidence of proto-Illyrian migration from the eastern Adriatic coast, proof that these migrants were carriers of haplogroup E1b1b, and that haplogroup E1b1b was certainly dominant during early Illyrian ethnogenesis in present-day Albania.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    1,437

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Brate, I was hoping you would heed Polska's advice for it not to come to this.

    First of all, it is good to keep in mind what proof is, in relation to the scientific method. What you claim to be proof, is fallacious extrapolation.
    Secondly, you have two options to get started on this. One is to read the published papers (2-3 regarding BA Croatia, the Maros paper, the Danubian Limes paper, the Ancient Rome paper, the Daunian (Messapian-Illyrian related ancient Puglians), and the Etruscan paper). The other option is just using the search engine on this site for the related topics and finding out what's in the water before jumping in.
    Furthermore it is a good idea, to be aware of the various leaks that have happened regarding upcoming papers.
    Alas, you also seem to be confused about Illyrians, who according to consensus spread from Austria all the way to Albania.

    The people that you feel are pushing back against you are not a coincidence, most of them are aware of the above mentioned resources.

    Now regarding science, we are trying to connect two points. Ancient to Modern. If you start with modern population percentages to extrapolate what was there in the past, this is not science. I have seen even seemingly well educated people (God forbid data scientists) make this basic mistake. But if you have the data points of the Ancients, you can somehow try to connect that dot to modern distributions. Since in order to draw a line you need two points. Luckily thanks to the scientists in your country we have plenty of samples, that vindicated ancient Greeks and their descriptions of who and what Illyrians were. You would do yourself a favor by reading the papers coming out of your country.

    I hope this message does not seem confrontative to you, as I spent my time trying to help you get started on this.

    PS: If you are looking to get familiar regarding IE (Steppe vs Anatolia) David Anthony has very good papers on the topic. I have also personally opened a thread on here, if you are interested and cant find it I will link it upon request.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  10. #10
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,027

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    And one a question for you and for everybody.If the haplogroup j2b was a proto-Illyrian haplogroup why we do not find this haplogroup predominantly among Messapians ?

    Indeed, in the region where the Messapians once lived, the haplogroup E1b1b predominates.
    Isn't everything clear ? Proto-Illyrians brought haplogroup E1b1b from the eastern Adriatic coast to today's modern Puglia. We know for sure that the haplogroup E1b1b has been present in modern Albania since the Neolithic, it may mean that they are Illyrian tribes like Taulantii, Enchele, Dassarets are haplogroup carriers E1b1b.

    However we must first define who the Illyrians were and which tribes were exactly Illyrian. The tribes north of Shkodra lake were probably not Illyrian, it is also considered by modern experts, so who really were the carriers of J2b ?

    there was J2b-L283 found in the Daunians who spoke messapic .............the Daunians where the most populace of the 3 tribes in Apulia ..................don't try to cover up the J2b by introducing E1b into the mix, they are different haplogoups with different origins

    Everyone knows , the illyrians began in modern eastern-Austria and slovenia and where on the south side of the Danube river......on the north side where the celts
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Brate, nadao sam se da ćeš poslušati savjet Polske da ne dođe do ovoga.

    Prije svega, dobro je imati na umu što je dokaz, u odnosu na znanstvenu metodu. Ono što tvrdite da je dokaz je pogrešna ekstrapolacija.
    Drugo, imate dvije mogućnosti za početak. Jedan je pročitati objavljene radove (2-3 za BA Hrvatsku, list Maros, list Danubian Limes, novine iz Starog Rima, Daunian (Mesapsko-ilirski povezani stari Pugli) i etruščanski list). Druga opcija je samo korištenje tražilice na ovoj stranici za povezane teme i pronalaženje što je u vodi prije nego što uskočite.
    Nadalje, dobra je ideja biti svjestan raznih curenja informacija o nadolazećim novinama.
    Jao, čini se da ste i vi zbunjeni oko Ilira, koji su se po konsenzusu proširili od Austrije sve do Albanije.

    Ljudi za koje osjećate da se guraju protiv vas nisu slučajnost, većina njih je svjesna gore navedenih resursa.

    Što se tiče znanosti, pokušavamo povezati dvije točke. Od antičkog do modernog. Ako počnete s modernim postocima stanovništva da ekstrapolirate što je bilo u prošlosti, ovo nije znanost. Vidio sam čak i naizgled dobro obrazovane ljude (ne daj Bože znanstvenice) kako čine ovu osnovnu pogrešku. Ali ako imate podatkovne točke Drevnih, možete nekako pokušati povezati tu točku s modernim distribucijama. Budući da su za crtanje linije potrebne dvije točke. Srećom zahvaljujući znanstvenicima u vašoj zemlji imamo dosta uzoraka koji su potvrdili stare Grke i njihove opise tko su i što su bili Iliri. Učinili biste sebi uslugu čitajući novine koje dolaze iz vaše zemlje.

    Nadam se da vam se ova poruka ne čini konfrontirajućom, jer sam proveo svoje vrijeme pokušavajući vam pomoći da počnete s ovim.

    PS: Ako se želite upoznati s IE (Steppe vs Anadolia), David Anthony ima vrlo dobre radove na tu temu. Također sam osobno otvorio temu ovdje, ako ste zainteresirani i ne možete je pronaći povezat ću je na zahtjev.
    With all due respect, you write too much and say little. I have not yet seen any real argument from you other than your personal interpretation and analysis of my knowledge.
    I have been studying genetics for 15 years, believe me, there is hardly a study or research that I have not read, it may exist, but it is the exception, not the rule. And I specialize especially in the study of the Illyrians.
    We are all amateurs here, but one is to write meaningfully, and the other is to write not meaningfully.

    I'm afraid you have too little knowledge and are not versed in the problem. I am familiar with theories about the haplogroup J2b and the steppe origins of the Illyrians, but you need to clearly distinguish the theory from the proven facts. This thesis that the members write about is a simple theory that lacks a lot of evidence and arguments.

    Tell me one strong piece of evidence that would support the nonsense theory that the Proto-Illyrians came from the steppe ?
    Some scholars are working against the real truth, wanting to belittle the Balkans and the Illyrians, and trying to tell all of us the absurd story that the steppe is the cradle of European civilization. According to these experts, it turns out that all ancient peoples and cultures came from the steppe, thus wanting to belittle Anatolia and the obvious influence of the Middle East on Balkan history and culture.

    Unfortunately, this cannot be the case. All Balkan cultures before the arrival of Rome and ancient peoples came from Anatolia, not from the steppe.

    My theory is not only based on modern percentages of haplogroups, but also on archeology and etymology, which obviously does not exist for you, but my theory is primarily based on the fact that you start from a wrong assumption like everyone else, and your wrong assumption is that the tribes in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro were also Illyrian. No they didn't. The Illyrian tribes were tribes south of Shkodra, north of the Greeks and west of the ancient Macedonians.

    I'm not saying that modern science is wrong in interpreting the ancient migration of haplogroup J2b, I'm just saying that they are wrong in interpreting the Illyrian notion. Today's consensus of modern science is unequivocal and clear, and he says that the Illyrians were one or perhaps several tribes in the southern Illyria. Forget all the tribes in the north that may indeed have been haplogroups J2b, but were not Illyrian. That's the problem !

    I recommend that you read the research of Aleksandar Stipčević from 1977. He recognized the problem precisely in the fact that the possible scenario of the ancient migration of haplogroup J2b from the steppe can be applied only to the tribes of the north-western Balkans, but not to the tribes of the south-western Balkans.

    Believe me Aleksandar Stipčević was not a fool, he has scientific works behind him and a lot of works on the subject of the Illyrians.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    postojao je J2b-L283 pronađen kod Daunaca koji su govorili mesapski .............Daunjani gdje je većina stanovništva od 3 plemena u Apuliji ...... ............ne pokušavajte prikriti J2b uvođenjem E1b u miks, to su različite haplogoupe različitog porijekla
    . Svi znaju , Iliri su počeli u modernoj istočnoj Austriji i sloveniji i gdje na južnoj strani Dunava......na sjevernoj strani gdje su Kelti
    It is interesting how you did not say that samples of haplogroup E1b1b from the time of postmigration from the eastern Adriatic coast were also found among the Dauns and Peucetians.

    The policy of this forum has always been to never tell the truth entirely only what serves the interest.

    I do not include E1b1b in the mix with the haplogroup J2b, I do not even claim that J2b was not present in the Illyrian population, I am just saying that the ethnogenesis of the Proto-Illyrians was E1b1b.
    Illyrians originated in Austria? :smijeh::smijeh::smijeh:
    Dudee, please, don't write nonsense and get serious. I did not come here to read nonsense but to discuss with arguments.
    In modern austria almost nothing has been found that could be culturally connected with the Illyrians in the southern Illyria.
    That is where every debate ends !

    The ethnogenesis of the Illyrians began in the area of northern Epirus, and the Proto-Illyrians arrived from Asia Minor, very likely after a possible conflict with the Hittites. The culture and pottery of the early Illyrians is identical to the culture and pottery of the peoples of northwestern Anatolia.

    You want to show us to some steppe Indians, but you won't succeed. The megalithic culture of the Illyrians has nothing to do with the steppe, the cult of snake worship is also not found in the steppe. The technique of building dry stone walls came to the Balkans from Asia Minor, not from the steppe, there are no stones in the steppe. Steppe peoples were primitive peoples who could not fit in with the Illyrians or even the Mycenaeans.

  13. #13
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    444


    Country: Kosovo



    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    It is interesting how you did not say that samples of haplogroup E1b1b from the time of postmigration from the eastern Adriatic coast were also found among the Dauns and Peucetians.

    The policy of this forum has always been to never tell the truth entirely only what serves the interest.

    I do not include E1b1b in the mix with the haplogroup J2b, I do not even claim that J2b was not present in the Illyrian population, I am just saying that the ethnogenesis of the Proto-Illyrians was E1b1b.
    Illyrians originated in Austria? :smijeh::smijeh::smijeh:
    Dudee, please, don't write nonsense and get serious. I did not come here to read nonsense but to discuss with arguments.
    In modern austria almost nothing has been found that could be culturally connected with the Illyrians in the southern Illyria.
    That is where every debate ends !

    The ethnogenesis of the Illyrians began in the area of northern Epirus, and the Proto-Illyrians arrived from Asia Minor, very likely after a possible conflict with the Hittites. The culture and pottery of the early Illyrians is identical to the culture and pottery of the peoples of northwestern Anatolia.

    You want to show us to some steppe Indians, but you won't succeed. The megalithic culture of the Illyrians has nothing to do with the steppe, the cult of snake worship is also not found in the steppe. The technique of building dry stone walls came to the Balkans from Asia Minor, not from the steppe, there are no stones in the steppe. Steppe peoples were primitive peoples who could not fit in with the Illyrians or even the Mycenaeans.
    You obviously don't have a science background, never read any science paper or know anything about it in that matter. Archetype was polite to give you a guide on how to learn more about the scientific method.

    In regards to your pseudo scientific claims:

    -E1b-V13 was never found in ancient Italy BCE, ancient Western Balkans

    -J2b-L283 was found in Daunians a group of people with Illyrian descent who merged with Italics, J2b-L283 was found in ancient Italy

    -the majority of the for now available IA Illyrians from various sites of the Adriatic are J2b-L283

    -we have BA Proto-Illyrians from ancient Dalmatia both in the North and South who are J2b-L283: see Posusje Culture

    -J2b-L283 has been found in the Maros Culture, various other sites including Slovenia

    -J2b-L283 was found in LaTene Celts who had close contact with Illyrians

    -J2b-L283 is very IE and has nothing to do with Anatolia neither does its pathway connect to that region

    I4331, 1631-1521 BCE, Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y15058
    I26726 1461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638
    I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283
    I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
    I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
    I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
    I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
    I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241
    I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930


    I4998, 300 BCE, Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
    I5691, 666 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, J-L283>>Z615>Z597
    I22940, 475 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

    J2b-L283 is a steppe related haplogroup as all other IE people and in a South Eastern European context is very much core Proto Illyrian.


  14. #14
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    444


    Country: Kosovo



    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Drugi misle, uzorci J2b sa Zapadnog Balkana nisu dovoljni, premalo ih je, uostalom postoje i uzorci i haplogrupe E1b1b i I2a1.
    I2a-Slav or I-Y3120>S17250>PH908 was never found in ancient South East Europe it spread with the Slavs in the early Middle Ages.

    The pseudo scientific claim that Slavs are autochthonous to South East Europe was debunked years ago. One just has to look at the auDNA of the ancient samples.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Očito nemate znanstvenu pozadinu, nikada niste pročitali nikakav znanstveni rad niti znate išta o tome po tom pitanju. Arhetip je bio ljubazan da vam da vodič kako saznati više o znanstvenoj metodi.

    Što se tiče vaših pseudoznanstvenih tvrdnji:

    -E1b-V13 nikada nije pronađen u staroj Italiji prije Krista, drevnom zapadnom Balkanu

    -J2b-L283 je pronađen u Daunjanima grupa ljudi s ilirskim podrijetlom koji su se spojili s Italima, J2b-L283 je pronađen u antici Italija

    -većina za sada dostupnih IA Ilira sa raznih lokaliteta Jadrana su J2b-L283 -imamo

    BA Protoilire iz stare Dalmacije i na sjeveru i na jugu koji su J2b-L283: vidi Posuška kultura

    -J2b-L283 je pronađen u Maroškoj kulturi, raznim drugim nalazištima uključujući Sloveniju

    -J2b-L283 je pronađen u Latene Kelta koji su imali bliske kontakte s Ilirima

    -J2b-L283 je vrlo IE i nema nikakve veze s Anadolijom niti ima svoj put spoj na tu regiju

    I4331, 1631-1521 pr.ne , Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y15058
    I26726 1461 pr.ne , Croatia_MBA, špilja Gudnja Gudnja, Špilja Gudnja, Gušpilja Gušpilja, Gušpilja Gudjica 56, J
    - 56 950 pr.ne , Hrvatska_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283
    I23911, 844 pr.ne , Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Y8693>
    , I2713 pr.n.e., 844. pr.n.e. , Hrvatska_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930, I2713 pr.n.e. , L2743 B , Hrvatska >Z597>Z38240>Z3824013824016186 86
    86 Kr . , Hrvatska_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
    I24639, 681.
    pr.ne , Hrvatska_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z597>Z38240 >Y86930 I24639, 681. pr.ne , Hrvatska_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z597>Z38240>Y86930 I2460. , Hrvatska_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930 I24639, 681. pr.ne , Hrvatska_EIA , Smiljan, J-L283>>Z597> Z9606070707060 , Z9606070707060, Hrvatska šplja, Jazin Jazin, J-L283, Z9606070707060, Z597>Z38240>Z38241
    I24882, 662 pr.ne , Hrvatska_EIA, Mala Metaljka,IA županija, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058 I5691, 666 pr.ne , Slovenija_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, J-L283>>Z615>Z597 I22940, 475 pr.ne , Slovenija_ZL2, J->_ZL2 Savi13>>6. >Z597>Z2507 J2b-L283 je haplogrupa povezana sa stepom kao i svi drugi ljudi iz IE iu kontekstu jugoistočne Europe je u velikoj mjeri temeljna protoilirska .










    Pročitao sam više znanstvenih radova nego što ste ikada vidjeli u životu, ali me očito ne razumijete. Pišeš o haplogrupi J2b pronađenoj u Hrvatskoj i Sloveniji, to nema veze s Ilirima, sama moderna znanost kaže da su Iliri bili na jugu. Svi antički autori navode da su pravi Iliri bili na području današnje Albanije.

    Imate li neki uzorak J2b iz vremena rane ilirske etnogeneze s područja albanije? Nemate! Dakle, o tome što pišemo? Vaša hipoteza je primjenjiva samo na plemena sjeverno od Skadra, ali jednu stvar moram spomenuti i ponoviti!

    Ponavljam, vaša teorija iz eupedije je samo teorija, a sama eupedija navodi da je to samo pitanje mogućnosti, a ne zaključka. Morate znati razliku između teorije i zaključka. U Hrvatskoj su pronađeni i uzorci haplogrupa I2a1 i E1b1b s otoka Hvara. Predlažem da pročitate radove hrvatskog biologa Ivana Jurića koji je na ovu temu objavio više od stotinu znanstvenih radova, u njegovoj knjizi genetsko podrijetlo Hrvata spominje se mnogo više uzoraka haplogrupe I2a1 nego J2b pronađenih tijekom ilirske etnogeneze.

    A o daunjanima, lažna je tvoja izreka da haplogrupa E1b1b V13 nije pronađena u pretkršćanskoj Italiji, to jednostavno nije točno.

    A o staroj Dalmaciji nijedno pleme iz stare Dalmacije ili Hercegovine nije bilo Ilirsko, osim možda Ardijeja koji su možda bili mješovito pleme. Plemena poput Autariatae, Daorsi, Deuri, Narensi, Dalmatae, posebno panonska plemena, to nisu ilirska plemena. Cijeli svijet to zna.

    Kad govorimo o Ilirima, riječ je isključivo o 4 plemena, Taulantii, Parthini, Enchelei i Dassareti, shodno tome, ako mi nađete studiju koja je pronašla nekoliko J2b uzoraka s područja gdje su ta četiri spomenuta plemena živjela od tog vremena , priznat ću da griješim ! Jel ovo ok?

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I2a-Slav ili I-Y3120>S17250>PH908 nikada nije pronađen u drevnoj jugoistočnoj Europi, proširio se među Slavenima u ranom srednjem vijeku.

    Pseudoznanstvena tvrdnja da su Slaveni autohtoni u jugoistočnoj Europi razobličena je prije mnogo godina. Treba samo pogledati auDNK drevnih uzoraka.
    Nikad nisam rekao da su Slaveni autohtoni na Balkanu, ali haplogrupa I2a1b PH908 nije slavenska mutacija nego dinarska i nema veze sa Slavenima. Na Balkanu je prisutna i prije dolaska Slavena.

    Kopirat ću tekst sa iGENI stranice jer nemam dovoljno postova za postavljanje linka.

    "Haplogrupa I2a1a2b-L621, točnije, njezin subklad Y3120, često se smatra još jednom “slavenskom” haplogrupom (uz R1a-Z282), što je pogrešno i znanstveno nedopustivo. Kriterij koherentnosti je nedvosmislen: „Pojedinci iz genetski prepoznatljivih skupina ne bi trebali imati isto ime; pojedinci od genetski nerazlučivih trebali bi." Haplogrupe su genetska, a ne geografska, lingvistička, nacionalna ili društvena kategorija. To znači da se ne mogu odrediti prema jeziku koji govore njihovi nositelji, zemlji u kojoj žive, ili vjeri koju prakticiraju... Svaka haplogrupa označava zajedničko genetsko porijeklo ljudi koji je dijele, a svi pripadaju istom etno -rasna skupina koja je imala vlastitu evoluciju."

    - Nositelji subklada Y3120 žive diljem jugoistočne i sjeveroistočne/sjeverozapadne Europe. Broj I2a1 ljudi veći je na sjeveru nego na jugu. No, jugoistočna Europa (od Hrvatske do Grčke i Bugarske) jedina je regija u kojoj su svi podklasi I-Y3120 skupljeni zajedno. Još je značajnije da se bazalne loze svih pet subklada Y3120 nalaze isključivo na Balkanu. Podskupine Y18331, S17250-PH908 i Z17855 također su prisutne u istom području s mlađe grane i mnogo potomaka – to nedvojbeno ukazuje na prostorni i vremenski kontinuitet od nekih 2100-2300 godina.
    Napomena: Veća populacija I2a1 i "ekskluzivna" raznolikost podklada Y4460, S17250-Y4882 i S17250-Y5596 u "gornjoj" Europi posljedica su (čestih) migracija tijekom više od 1500 godina i, iznad svega, razvoj mlađih grana."

    Raznolikost Mađarskoj Y4460 u i Rumunjskoj prilično je uočljiva, a kada se sve uzme u obzir (geografski položaj zemalja, povijesni kontekst, razina prisutnosti ove haplogrupe u balkanskim zemljama), sa sigurnošću se može reći da je zapadna Dakija bila vjerojatno mjesto s kojeg se Y4460 širio prema sjeveru, zapadu i, u znatno manjoj mjeri, jugu. No, ono što je još upadljivije je sljedeće: na Balkanu nije pronađena nijedna od mlađih grana (nastalih prije manje od 2000 godina), koja predstavlja većinu u istočnim i zapadnim slavenskim zemljama! To bi moglo znači da:
    a) Y4460 je zapravo došao na istočni Balkan prije više od 2000 godina iz današnjih slavenskih zemalja, ostao rijedak i iz nekog razloga nije dalje evoluirao – što je vrlo malo vjerojatno;
    b) veći dio “klana” Y4460 napustio je sjevernu obalu Dunava u prvim stoljećima nove ere – pratili su obalu Crnog mora, ili grebene Karpatskih planina i na kraju napredovali u slavenskim i baltičkim zemljama.
    U oba slučaja, ovo je ključna činjenica: nije bilo naknadnih migracija ljudi I-Y4460 (u 6., 7. ili kasnijem stoljeću) na Balkanu koji bi mogao donijeti mlađe grane."

  17. #17
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    1,437

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Since I have some time on my hands.

    "The Illyrians were a group of Indo-European speaking peoples, who inhabited the western Balkan Peninsula in ancient times.



    The territory the Illyrians inhabited came to be known as Illyria to later Greek and Roman authors, who identified a territory that corresponds to most of Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo,[a] much of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, western and central Serbia and some parts of Slovenia between the Adriatic Sea in the west, the Drava river in the north, the Morava river in the east and in the south the Aous (modern Vjosa) river or possibly the Ceraunian Mountains.[1][2] "

    The history of Illyrian warfare and weaponry spanned from around the 10th century BC up to the 1st century AD in the region defined by the Ancient Greek and Roman historians as Illyria. "

    So contrary to what you might have read:

    1. The consensus is that Illyrians were Indo European.

    2. They stretched from Slovenia to Albania.



    Now lets look at some logic problems with your arguments.

    1. As I said before, you are taking modern distributions to extrapolate something about the past. This does not even work in concept. But lets pretend it does. If Illyrians were E-V13, because of modern % of E-V13 in Albanians and they were Anatolian non Indo Europeans. Where is this modern E-V13 in Anatolia? Even with the flawed logic, your argument does not hold.

    2. Why would you insist that L283 is not the Illyrian marker, when the same premise that you use for E-V13 can be used for L283. If your argument starts with modern distribution in Albania? L283 reaches as high as 40-50% in some regions of Albania.

    3. Where did you get the idea that only Illyri propi dicti were the only Illyrians? No author I have read, modern or ancient has made this point?

    4. Where did you read that Illyrians were not IE? What do you expect them to be if not IE? Neolithic HG (Hunter Gatherers)? EEF (Early European Farmers)? If so, why? What is the argument here?









    Now for E-V13... There are people much better prepared to answer whether E-V13 being Anatolian can make sense. As far as I know we lack E-V13 samples from Anatolia. But even if this was the case, we have already established Illyrians were Indo European.

    So how do you base your E-V13 Anatolian Illyrians theory on modern frequency maps when E-V13 has no hotspot in Anatolia. What gives? I am really scratching my head trying to understand your logic here. It makes no sense looking at ancient samples, neither at modern frequencies. Surely if you base Illyrians E-V13 theory based on modern frequencies, you could just as easy do it for L283, no? Just look at the two heatmaps. The difference is, as I said from my first reply, ancient samples, which you seem not to be aware of.



    Now in the beginning I quoted a line saying proto-Illyrian weapons first appeared 1000 BC.


    This is the TMRCA of L283 lines. Not only does it fit with Illyrians, Indo Europeans and what have you, but we also have ancient samples with corresponding Y-DNA and steppe related autosomal signal.


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/j-l283/


    Here is a map of all the ancient samples, courtesy of Trojet:

    https://bit.ly/33lIS2o


    Since I might have been vague the first time around, and it seemed to you that I wrote a lot but said little.
    The opposite might have been the case, I said too much and wrote too little for you to understand my points. To understand me you would have had to first read these scientific articles I was referring to (which you obviously have not read). I felt generous enough to link them, since searching for them might be hard.



    Reconstructing genetic histories and social organisation in Neolithic and Bronze Age Croatia

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94932-9

    -What was in Croatia during the Eneolithic, before IE proto-Illyrians got there, you can find out in this paper.


    The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transect


    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673

    During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European–associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian-related admixture among the putative non–Indo-European–speaking Etruscans.

    -L283 was among the samples found among Etruscans, a minority, likely introgressed as a IE line.



    Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337103557_Ancient_Rome_A_genetic_crossroads_of_Eur ope_and_the_Mediterranean

    -A good paper to understand macro changes. Also keep an eye out for haplogroups. E-V13 included. When it first pops up and under what context.
    Posting this here, since you somehow claimed E-V13 in BC Italy? and in Messapians and Daunians or something?




    The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age context


    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....454498v1.full

    "Despite the extensive archaeological literature, their origin has been lost to time and, as early as in the Hellenistic period, various legends already existed connecting them to either Illyria (an ancient region broadly identifiable with the Balkan peninsula), Arkadia (present-day Peloponnesus) or Crete
    7, 8."
    "
    The Daunians maintained strong commercial and political relations with the Illyrian people, controlling together the area spanning from the Dalmatia to the Gargano peninsula10 and had many cultural affinities with them26. The material culture, involving peculiar anthropomorphic statue stelae, has provided some information on Daunian culture and may also help in unravelling their mysterious origin. In particular, the forearm decorations on a female stela have been interpreted as tattoos and, while tattooing practices were considered barbarian among the Greeks27, they were customary in populations from Tracia and Illyria and, more generally, among the women of status from the Balkans8, 28."

    -Guess which haplogroups the whole paper is based on? Ancient L283, z2103 and
    I1-M253 (again not I2a-Dinaric). Notice which haplogroup is missing, again. Daunians were the largest of the three Iapygian tribes, along with Messapians and Peucetians.




    Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples


    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....458211v1.full

    -Will give you a glimpse into paleo Balkan haplogroups. This is in smack in the middle of the Balkans. Also notice when I2a-Dinaric pops up for the first time, and under which archeological and autosomal complex?



    Kinship, acquired and inherited status, and population structure at the Early Bronze Age Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337v1.full.pdf

    MOK19A; R1b-Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14415>Y14420*
    MOK22: R1b-Z2103>Z2106>Z2108 (Z2110-)
    MOK24A: R1b-Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110 (CTS1450-)
    MOK27: R1b-Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>CTS7556*
    MOK12: I2a-M423-L161>Y13336
    MOK18A: I2a-M423-L161>Y13336
    MOK29A: I2a-S21825>Y4213
    MOK32: I2a-S21825>Y4213
    MOK15: J2b-L283>Z600>Z615*

    -You will see this theme quite often with BA to IA ancient samples, namely L283 and Z2103. With up to 1/3 Steppe autosomal makeup.

    -Maros samples. Note: I2a-M423 / I2a-S21825 is not I2a-Dinaris aka L621. They are separated by almost 10,000 years.
    The I2a-M423 found is likely of HG nature, meanwhile for I2a-Dianaric all signs point to it being picked up by proto-Slavs somewhere between Germany, Scandinavia and the Baltics.

    “Dinaric I2a” and the expansion of Common Slavs from East-Central Europe

    https://indo-european.eu/2019/05/din...entral-europe/



    Maros shows Yamnaya-derived East BBC ancestry and local admixture

    https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/mar...cal-admixture/

    The high status of an individual of hg. J2b – likely J2b-L283, a lineage of Balkan/Central Mediterranean Neolithic distribution – as well as other high status burials, together with the lower status* of Yamnaya/Bell Beaker derived R1b-Z2103 (barring potentially sample 243, the nephew of 257B through his mother 257A) points to the increasing relevance of local lineages during the EBA in detriment of the likely ‘original’ Yamnaya/East Bell Beaker-derived patrilineally-related community of the earliest stage of the Maros group.

    L283 and Z2103 again together. Again a steppe autosomal signal.



    Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5


    -What Pannonia looked like up to the middle ages. Guess what quite a lot of L283. Guess which haplogroups we see in Pannonia? Same paleo Balkan haplogroups + E-V13



    The Indo-European Homeland from Linguistic and Archaeological Perspectives


    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...l_Perspectives


    You cant go wrong with reading David Anthony on this subject




    Finally. I think I was courteous enough giving you reading material. Since despite typing so much, there is so much to be said, that unless you read for yourself you won't be able to understand.

    What I can say is, it is not a sin to be wrong in a debate. But it is shameful to stubbornly defend ones ignorance when confronted with the facts.




    Ps: There is a Lazaridis paper coming out that will put this whole clown fiesta to sleep. In said paper we will have samples from Bronze Age Albania. R1b and L283 are among the Albanian samples. No E-V13 last I checked. This is just leaked information.

    I have also heard some rumors that we might have Trojan samples, which might decide the Dardanian hypothesis if anything, since these would be the first Trojan samples. But am not sure if it will be in the Lazaridis paper.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Pogledajmo sada neke logičke probleme s vašim argumentima. 1. Kao što sam već rekao, uzimate moderne distribucije kako biste ekstrapolirali nešto o prošlosti. Ovo čak ni u konceptu ne funkcionira. Ali pretvarajmo se da jest. Ako su Iliri bili E-V13, zbog modernog % E-V13 u Albancima i bili su anadolski neindoeuropljani. Gdje je ovaj moderni E-V13 u Anadoliji? Čak i uz pogrešnu logiku, vaš argument ne stoji. 2. Zašto biste inzistirali da L283 nije ilirski biljeg, kada se ista premisa koju koristite za E-V13 može koristiti i za L283. Ako vaša argumentacija počinje modernom distribucijom u Albaniji? L283 postiže čak 40-50% u nekim regijama Albanije.






    3. Odakle vam ideja da su samo Iliri propi dicti jedini Iliri? Nijedan autor kojeg sam čitao, moderni ili drevni, nije to rekao?

    4. Gdje si pročitao da Iliri nisu IE? Što očekujete da ćete biti ako ne IE? Neolit ​​HG (Hunter Gatherers)? EEF (Early European Farmers)? Ako je tako, zašto? Koji je ovdje argument?
    Vau!
    Što imam za reći, bog mi pomozi! Sve ovo što ste mi na početku napisali i objavili polazi od pogrešne pretpostavke.

    Samo ti postavljam jedno pitanje! Moje pitanje je bilo, imate li ikakve dokaze da su drevni Taulantii, Enchelei, Parthini ili Dassareti bili članovi haplogrupe J2b? Zapravo, imate li uopće ikakve dokaze da je J2b bio pretežno prisutan na području moderne Albanije u vrijeme rane etnogeneze Ilira?

    Ako nemate, onda sve ovo pada u vodu. Žao mi je što još ne mogu postavljati linkove i slike, inače bih vam postavio stotine linkova i slika.
    Ali da odgovorim na vaša pitanja.

    1. Vaše pitanje je gdje je V13 u Anadoliji ako su proto Iliri bili V13.
    Potpuno je netočno da V13 nije prisutan u Maloj Aziji, postoji na prilično visokim frekvencijama na zapadu Male Azije. Mnogi stručnjaci vjeruju da se radi o ostacima drevne migracije ljudi V13 koji su migrirali prateći zapadnu obalu Male Azije.

    Ono što je zanimljivo, znate da je na Kosovu postojalo pleme Dardanaca, inače su Dardanci bili narod u zapadnoj Maloj Aziji, a na području gdje su nekada bili dominantni Dardanci postoji visoka frekvencija E1b1b. Dardanci su povezani s osnivanjem Troje, koja je također bila poznata kao "Ilius". Kao što vidite i sami, ime "Ilius" vrlo je slično riječi "Illyrius". Prema dostupnim analizama antičkog E1b1b na području Troje, uočena je velika prisutnost uzoraka V13.

    Što se tiče Troje i Hetita koje sam spomenuo, to je posebna tema o kojoj sada neću pisati, ali ako inzistirate, pisat ću o tome, nije problem, jedino što u tom slučaju ulazimo u neke druge teme koje nemaju veze s genetikom, ali to je poanta, genetika se ne može odvojiti od arheologije, lingvistike i etimologije. Da bismo razumjeli i imali objektivnu sliku drevne seobe ili podjele jednog naroda, genetika nam nije dovoljna, nego trebamo uključiti i druge grane znanosti.

    2. Drugo pitanje, kažete, nikad nisam napisao da Iliri nisu J2b, samo kažem da j2b nije zaslužan za stvaranje rane ilirske etnogeneze, a da Protoiliri nisu bili J2b, a sada ću napisati zašto je tako.
    haplogrupa J2b stigla je u albaniju i kosovo na isti način kao i u hrvatsku. Točno se zna što su pripadnici J2b donijeli na Balkan, a što nisu. Točno se zna što je bilo na Balkanu prije dolaska J2b, a što je došlo iz Anadolije.
    problem s J2b na području albanije u doba Ilira je što nam nedostaju nalazi koji bi potvrdili prisutnost j2b na području albanije. Nedostaju nam i dokazi da je J2b bio dominantniji od E1b1b u Albaniji u to vrijeme, ali ni to ne dokazuje da je J2b bio utemeljitelj ilirske etnogeneze.

    Danas imamo veliku prisutnost J2b na kosovu i u albaniji, ali nam nedostaju drevni uzorci J2b iz albanije iz ilirskih vremena.

    Nitko danas živ ne može sa sigurnošću reći kada su Proto-Iliri stigli na Balkan i odakle, nitko! Eupedia je jedna velika pretpostavka, ništa drugo.

    3.Treće pitanje.
    Upravo se u djelu "Proprie Dicti" spominje da su pravi Iliri bili Taulantii. Ne znam koliko ste antičkih autora pročitali, ali ja sam ih sve pročitao.
    Svi antički autori gotovo su uvijek navodili južna ilirska plemena kao izvorne Ilire.
    Sjetimo se djela Hekate iz Mileta, što je Hekate rekla? Hekata je kao Herodot rekao da su Iliri plemena sjeverno od njih, a jedina plemena sjeverno od Grka su Taulantii i Enchelei, što je logično, a ne Daorsi, Narensi, Ardiei, Delmati ili ne znam od koga daleko na sjever. Grci nam u svom zemljopisu daju precizne podatke gdje su Iliri, kažu sjeverno od njih. Herodot je čak napisao da su Heleni nekoć živjeli s Ilirima s druge strane Epira, ali da su se njihovi helenski preci zbog čestih sukoba s njima morali povući na jug.

    Oprostite, ali za mene je ovo vrlo značajan dokaz. Vjerujem Herodotu i Hekati, a ne Eupediji koja je dosad pogriješila tisuću puta.
    Ne razumijem zašto ne čitaš antičke autore i zašto ih ne shvaćaš ozbiljno ?
    Još jedno razmišljanje.
    Iliri nisu bila sva plemena u Iliriku, Ilirik je samo politička i vojna organizacijska jedinica ili regija nazvana po plemenu na jugu. Poznato je da ta plemena nisu govorila jednim jezikom, nisu vjerovala u istog boga, imala drugačiju kulturu, pa čak i vjerovanje. Poznato je da su ilirska plemena bila vrlo različita, heterogena i gotovo je sigurno da se ne radi o istom narodu, čak ni o istoj genetici.
    Žalosno je što ne poznajete znanstvene činjenice i osnove.

    Cijeli svijet zna da su ilirička plemena bila izrazito različita i da se ovdje ne može govoriti o istim ljudima. Evo jednog primjera..

    U rimskim kronikama o ratovima s Ilirima navode da se sjeverni i južni Iliri izrazito razlikuju. Za sjeverne Ilire čini se da je izrazito visoka, a za južne niža. Za južnjake se kaže da su tamnije puti i nisu toliko borbeni kao sjeverni Iliri.
    Što to znači ? Za mene to znači da je to drugačija genetika, jer mi je nevjerojatno da su i sjeverni Iliri J2b i južni, i da su sjeverni tako jako visoki a južni ne. Je li to moguće ? ne ! Ne vjerujem ni da su sjeverni Iliri pretežno bili J2b, nego I2a1, jer J2b ljudi nisu visoki, a za Ilire se kaže da su bili izuzetno visoki. Stari Rimljani su pisali da su sjeverni Iliri imali velika stopala i duguljaste glave. To je dinarski fenotip, a ne J2b. Mislim da su J2b bila pretežno panonska plemena, a da su plemena Dalmacije i Hercegovine pretežno I2a1b. To bi objasnilo zašto su plemena Ilirika toliko različita u svemu.

    4.Četvrto pitanje. Reci mi, zašto misliš da je nemoguće da je indoeuropski jezik nametnut Protoilirima, zašto? Što uopće znamo o ilirskom jeziku? Gotovo ništa ili iznimno vrlo malo. O ilirskom jeziku znamo samo ono što nalazimo u grčkom, a Grci su inače prilagodili ilirski izgovor svom jeziku i tako utjecali na promjenu cijelih riječi.

    A znate li da su indoeuropski jezici nastali u Anadoliji?
    Nažalost, ne mogu podijeliti link, ali ukucao sam na google "indoeuropeans come from Anatolia".
    Indoeuropski je jezik na Balkan mogao doći iz Anadolije.


    Mislite li da su pripadnici j2b bili jedini govornici indoeuropskih jezika? molim te..


    Bez uvrede, ali mnogi ljudi ovdje misle da su popili svu pamet svijeta samo zato što imaju preko tisuću postova na Eupediji. Ovim se temama bavim više od 15 godina. Obišao sam sve forume diljem svijeta, pisao za razne portale i blogove, objavio desetke YouTube videa. 10.000 tvojih objava na eupediji ne može se usporediti s onim što sam pročitao u životu, a pročitao sam stotine knjiga na ovu temu.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,482

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't understand why you mix up Serbo-Croatian and English in your quotes.

    E-V13 didn't come via Anatolia during Bronze Age, there is no such pattern. In Balkans it clearly follows the pattern of Eastern Urnfield expansion during Late Bronze Age, so some Illyrian tribes like Enchelei, Dardani would probably bear E-V13. But it is more related to Proto-Thracian/Thracians.

    And J2b2-L283 is not a steppe lineage but more like a CHG (Caucasus Hunter Gatherer), we have enough steppe/Yamnaya/CWC/Bell Beaker samples and none bears J2b2-L283, it is probably a lineage who got IE-zed somewhere during or right after 2000 B.C. It wasn't even found in Early Bronze Age Bulgaria among the R1b-Z2103 and I2a. So, it's spread was more specific and more narrowly distributed with Proto-Illyrians and latter historical Illyrians.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    "The Illyrians were a group of Indo-European speaking peoples, who inhabited the western Balkan Peninsula in ancient times.
    I almost forgot !

    The Anatolian hypothesis, also known as the Anatolian theory or the sedentary farmer theory, first developed by British archaeologist Colin Renfrew in 1987, proposes that the dispersal of Proto-Indo-Europeans originated in Neolithic Anatolia. It is the main competitor to the Kurgan hypothesis, or steppe theory, which enjoys more academic favor.


    The Anatolian hypothesis suggests that the speakers of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) lived in Anatolia during the Neolithic era, and it associates the distribution of historical Indo-European languages with the expansion during the Neolithic revolution of the 7th and the 6th millennia BC.


    This hypothesis states that Indo-European languages began to spread peacefully, by demic diffusion, into Europe from Asia Minor from around 7000 BC with the Neolithic advance of farming (wave of advance). Accordingly, most inhabitants of Neolithic Europe would have spoken Indo-European languages, and later migrations would have replaced the Indo-European varieties with other Indo-European varieties.


    The expansion of agriculture from the Middle East would have diffused three language families: Indo-European languages toward Europe, Dravidian languages toward Pakistan and India, and Afroasiatic languages toward the Arabian Peninsula and North Africa. Reacting to criticism, Renfrew revised his proposal to the effect of taking a pronounced Indo-Hittite position. Renfrew's revised views place only Pre-Proto-Indo-European in the 7th millennium BC in Anatolia, proposing as the homeland of Proto-Indo-European proper the Balkans around 5000 BC, which he explicitly identified as the "Old European culture", proposed by Marija Gimbutas. He thus still locates the original source of the Indo-European languages in Anatolia around 7000 BC.


    Reconstructions of a Bronze Age PIE society, based on vocabulary items like "wheel", do not necessarily hold for the Anatolian branch, which may have separated at an early stage, prior to the invention of wheeled vehicles.


    According to Renfrew (2004), the spread of Indo-European proceeded in the following steps:


    Around 6500 BC: Pre-Proto-Indo-European, in Anatolia, splits into Anatolian and Archaic Proto-Indo-European, the language of the Pre-Proto-Indo-European farmers who migrate to Europe in the initial farming dispersal. Archaic Proto-Indo-European languages occur in the Balkans (Starčevo–Körös culture), in the Danube valley (Linear Pottery culture), and possibly in the Bug-Dniestr area (Eastern Linear pottery culture).
    Around 5000 BC: Archaic Proto-Indo-European splits into Northwestern Indo-European (the ancestor of Italic, Celtic, and Germanic), in the Danube valley, Balkan Proto-Indo-European (corresponding to Gimbutas' Old European culture) and Early Steppe Proto-Indo-European (the ancestor of Tocharian).
    The main strength of the farming hypothesis lies in its linking of the spread of Indo-European languages with an archaeologically-known event, the spread of farming, which scholars often assume involved significant population shifts.




    Research published in 2003 of "87 languages with 2,449 lexical items" by Russell Gray and Quentin Atkinson found an age range for the "initial Indo-European divergence" of 7800 to 9800 years, which was found to be consistent with the Anatolian hypothesis. Using stochastic models to evaluate the presence or absence of different words across Indo-European, Gray & Atkinson (2003) concluded that the origin of Indo-European goes back about 8500 years, the first split being that of Hittite from the rest (Indo-Hittite hypothesis).


    In 2006, the authors of the paper responded to their critics. In 2011, the authors and S. Greenhill found that two different datasets were also consistent with their theory. An analysis by Ryder and Nicholls (2011) found support for the Anatolian hypothesis:


    Our main result is a unimodal posterior distribution for the age of Proto-Indo-European centred at 8400 years before Present with 95% highest posterior density interval equal to 7100–9800 years before Present.


    Bouckaert et al. (2012), including Gray and Atkinson, conducted a computerized phylogeographic study, using methods drawn from the modeling of the spatial diffusion of infectious diseases; it also showed strong support for the Anatolian hypothesis despite having undergone corrections and revisions. Colin Renfrew commented on this study, stating that "[f]inally we have a clear spatial picture."

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Ne razumijem zašto miješate srpskohrvatski i engleski u svojim citatima.

    E-V13 nije došao preko Anadolije tijekom brončanog doba, ne postoji takav obrazac. Na Balkanu jasno slijedi obrazac širenja istočnog polja žara tijekom kasnog brončanog doba, pa bi neka ilirska plemena poput Enchelei, Dardani vjerojatno nosila E-V13. Ali više se odnosi na Proto-Tračane/Tračane.

    A J2b2-L283 nije stepska loza nego više kao CHG (Caucasus Hunter Gatherer), imamo dovoljno steppe/Yamnaya/CWC/Bell Beaker uzoraka i nijedan ne nosi J2b2-L283, to je vjerojatno loza koja je negdje dobila IE-zed tijekom ili neposredno nakon 2000. pr. Kr. Nije čak ni pronađen u Bugarskoj ranog brončanog doba među R1b-Z2103 i I2a. Dakle, njegovo je širenje bilo specifičnije i uže rasprostranjeno kod Proto-Ilira i potonjih povijesnih Ilira.
    I write using a program that automatically translates what I write in Croatian, but if I edit the text several times, the page is automatically translated so that what I add in English stays in English. I'm sorry, but I write easier and faster with the help of a translator, I'm not grammatically good enough with English to allow myself to write without a program.

    But I hope you understand me ?

    As for your quote, just below I published an Anatolian hypothesis that refutes you, after all, E1b1b arrived in the Balkans via Anatolia, maybe not in the Late Bronze Age, but that is irrelevant, because Proto-Illyrian migration is placed in the Late Bronze Age only due to the false assumption that Indo-European speakers came from the steppe with haplogroup J2b. You have an Anatolian hypothesis that says Indo-European and Proto-Indo-European speakers were present here much earlier.


    After all, we have no evidence that Enchelei or Taulantii were J2b, right?

    To make it easier for me to understand, you have to get acquainted with the Anatolian hypothesis.

    One more thing. Macioamo Hay, he is not a geneticist or a biologist, he is an amateur and independent researcher who is no different from me or maybe you. He studies genetics like me. What Maciamo Hay publishes on Eupedia is not a Holy scripture.

  22. #22
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,027

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    I write using a program that automatically translates what I write in Croatian, but if I edit the text several times, the page is automatically translated so that what I add in English stays in English. I'm sorry, but I write easier and faster with the help of a translator, I'm not grammatically good enough with English to allow myself to write without a program.

    But I hope you understand me ?

    As for your quote, just below I published an Anatolian hypothesis that refutes you, after all, E1b1b arrived in the Balkans via Anatolia, maybe not in the Late Bronze Age, but that is irrelevant, because Proto-Illyrian migration is placed in the Late Bronze Age only due to the false assumption that Indo-European speakers came from the steppe with haplogroup J2b. You have an Anatolian hypothesis that says Indo-European and Proto-Indo-European speakers were present here much earlier.


    After all, we have no evidence that Enchelei or Taulantii were J2b, right?

    To make it easier for me to understand, you have to get acquainted with the Anatolian hypothesis.

    One more thing. Macioamo Hay, he is not a geneticist or a biologist, he is an amateur and independent researcher who is no different from me or maybe you. He studies genetics like me. What Maciamo Hay publishes on Eupedia is not a Holy scripture.

    from August 2021

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-94932-9.pdf

  23. #23
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-21
    Posts
    444


    Country: Kosovo



    3 members found this post helpful.
    This thread is a joke.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-02-22
    Posts
    15

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2a1

    Ethnic group
    Šokac
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Ova nit je šala.
    With all due respect my friend, i think this forum needed someone like me, because I have had enough of watching the nonsense they write about the Illyrians here, and they have no idea. They think if they have over a thousand posts on eupedia they are the smartest. I have a million posts on other forums so what now?

    Here is propagated one hypothesis, Kurgan Hypothesis, and no one mentions the Anatolian hypothesis, why ? What is the problem with Anatolia? This topic is not a joke but you. You are joke, with your funny hypothesis. I have not yet seen any argument against what I have written, just empty stories.

    You all have to read a lot more to have at least the basics. That is the fact.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,608

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    With all due respect my friend, i think this forum needed someone like me, because I have had enough of watching the nonsense they write about the Illyrians here, and they have no idea. They think if they have over a thousand posts on eupedia they are the smartest. I have a million posts on other forums so what now?

    Here is propagated one hypothesis, Kurgan Hypothesis, and no one mentions the Anatolian hypothesis, why ? What is the problem with Anatolia? This topic is not a joke but you. You are joke, with your funny hypothesis. I have not yet seen any argument against what I have written, just empty stories.

    You all have to read a lot more to have at least the basics. That is the fact.
    The Anatolian hypothesis has been around for a while, you are not the only one to bring it to light. Until and unless we find archaeological, genetic and linguistic evidence of migration of IE speaking people through Anatolia it will be discredited.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •