Politics Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

Does nothing in this episode remind you of the UK encouraging Polish intransigence in 1939?

The difference is that there is no equivalent of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact now, so Ukraine doesn't have to worry about its western border.

On 17.09.1939 Poland was stabbed in the back by a supposedly anti-nazi country, who then held a joint military parade with the Nazis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IFmBQS8FDc

 
The majority of Americans don't even want to get involved.

Majority in U.S. oppose major role in Russia-Ukraine conflict, says AP-NORC poll

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politi...-in-russia-ukraine-conflict-says-ap-norc-poll

Yes ok that are the polls. real leaders lead and don't follow the day to day polls. I know the avrega man in the US will take faaaaaar away....Ypu know it isn't. Too entangled!

When Putin rolls further and an attack on NATO is on the way. That means WW3 with nuclear powers and a meanwhile berseking Putin.

Now we obviously must follow the vox populi? If Churchill and Roosevelt had that mentality Hitler would have prevailed.....:mad:

The feeble knees of those guided by poll. That's not leadership.
 
Well I will say some things that may upset off some folks regarding Ukraine vs. other recent refugee crisis. Regarding Ukraine, I notice the "Refugees" are Grandmothers, Daughters and children. The Men from 18 to 60 have decided to stay and fight. On the other hand, I remember another refugee crisis, partially egged on my Merkel and EU open border types, that the refugees coming from Syria and Iraq overwhelmingly were Men, 18 to 40 for the most part. I guess the women and children were left there to fend for the themselves.

With that in mind, I hope the USA and NATO allies provide all the aide, both lethal and humanitarian, to the Ukrainians to stand up to Putin.
 
If all of these countries, including the U.S., had imposed some of these sanctions earlier, things might not have reached this point. As for Biden's statement that we'll wait and see where things stand, it's beyond ludicrous. They don't HAVE a month. Trump is no better. Is he ever going to learn to shut tf UP? My poor adopted country: run by a pathetic, senile, fool who every day proves that his colleagues were correct to name him the dumbest man in the Senate, and having to listen to the joker on the side making his own stupid comments.

Anybody who has ever really objectively studied European history knows that you appease aggressors at your peril. They are never satisfied; Napoleon wasn't satisfied, Hitler wasn't satisfied, and Putin won't be satisfied. Sooner or later you have to face them.

The west waited too long in the lead up to the Second World War. They should have been listening to Churchill, not Chamberlain. It was only when Hitler took Poland that the west finally responded and then only because they were bound by treaties to defend it. Had they prepared for eventual war instead of giving up a free people to the Nazis they might have been able to counter Hitler better when he turned west, as anyone with a brain should have known he would do.

Instead, he took over all of the west, and had men staring across the Channel at Britain. It was a very near thing for Britain; there hadn't been enough time to arm them. Had Germany continued its air offensive, Britain might have fallen too, with no place left to gather the men and materiel to invade the continent.

No WE have to face them the NATO can in the 'new cold war' be effective with a joined effort!

There are already troops going to the Baltic (kind of flex troops).

The motto is not to complain, but to work together. Much is at stake.
 
Well I will say some things that may upset off some folks regarding Ukraine vs. other recent refugee crisis. Regarding Ukraine, I notice the "Refugees" are Grandmothers, Daughters and children. The Men from 18 to 60 have decided to stay and fight. On the other hand, I remember another refugee crisis, partially egged on my Merkel and EU open border types, that the refugees coming from Syria and Iraq overwhelmingly were Men, 18 to 40 for the most part. I guess the women and children were left there to fend for the themselves.

With that in mind, I hope the USA and NATO allies provide all the aide, both lethal and humanitarian, to the Ukrainians to stand up to Putin.

They did not decided, they were banned from fleeing, thus they are forced to fight.

Reminds me of how the soviets forced the Russian soldiers to rush the front without weapons, into German choke-points. At least they had the Allies behind them.
 
Well I will say some things that may upset off some folks regarding Ukraine vs. other recent refugee crisis. Regarding Ukraine, I notice the "Refugees" are Grandmothers, Daughters and children. The Men from 18 to 60 have decided to stay and fight. On the other hand, I remember another refugee crisis, partially egged on my Merkel and EU open border types, that the refugees coming from Syria and Iraq overwhelmingly were Men, 18 to 40 for the most part. I guess the women and children were left there to fend for the themselves.

With that in mind, I hope the USA and NATO allies provide all the aide, both lethal and humanitarian, to the Ukrainians to stand up to Putin.

It the least thing we could to for the Ukranians up to 5 million people will may be leave the Ukrainian. We in the west can fix that if we want, the Poles are already delivering much efforts because they are the first country in which the Ukrainians are going too.

Such European solidarity must prevail.
 
The aim of Dugin the ideological Rasputin behind Putin is not more and nothing less to destroy his supposed 'liberal totalitarianism' with the US in front of it. We must not let that happen!

Looking anxiously at the rising oil prices and basing his vote on that. Time to show that we are more than that!

But if economic thoughts or thoughts about money permeate everything, then that grumbling will happen. You would agree with them, right?

Roar of laughter in the Kremlin because then the liberal world image is no more than a collection of $$$

It is high time to show that a resilient democracy involves more than the height of oil and gas prices.

I see that many, especially Americans, are talking about woke and Marxists before and after, all fine, but NOW in the actual fifth column are the authoritarian populists. The Kremlin has actively supported the election of Trump in 2016, and oh how Putin must have laughed at himself when that plan also came out. He could not have wished for a better destabilization of the USA.

A re-election of Trump, especially given the recent statements, but also with the same authoritarian populist background, we would be at the mercy of Putin. The NATO would be gone or become a lame duck. In that sense, I'm happy to have Biden in the White House, the old fox of foreign policy.

That fifth column of the Kremlin is really becoming a thing, one of the Dutch Putin's ideological 'relatives' has already been brought into contact with money from the Kremlin in the past and is now praising Putin to heaven.... The AfD in Germany ditto . So it doesn't stand alone. And still Angela starts to whine about woke and Marxists, man, take those Trumpists hard!

When Baudet and Trump's crouched texts for the Kremlin were in the 1950s at the time of the Hungarian uprising, Mc Carthy would have been behind the door, now it's all innocent Palemor?

Now you get another infraction for insulting me. If you don't STOP THIS B.S. I am going to ban you. DO YOU GET IT?

Then you can leave Malaparte, the Putin apologist, the floor

You have posted a lot of stuff with which I disagree, but the bigger issue is that Ukraine deserves to be supported, so I let it go.

Can you not put your childish animus to bed? I AM ON YOUR SIDE. Grow up for God's sake.

If this is how most Europeans function politically, no wonder there has been no unity in terms of facing this situation.
 
Reminds me of how the soviets forced the Russian soldiers to rush the front without weapons, into German choke-points.

Yeah they should have conceded defeat, right? Then all Slavs and Jews would have a bright future.

In best case scenario Slavs would be expelled behind the Ural Mountains and Jews to Madagascar.

And now, you want a 40-million nation of Ukraine to concede defeat after 3 days and become a laughing stock ("haha, defeated in 3 days!").
 
Putin's confidence in his Superpowers would go through the roof if Ukraine surrendered after 3 days.

He would start to believe that he can regain Alaska in 4 days.

So you should be thankful that Ukrainians are dying to prevent the future Russian invasion of Alaska.
 
They did not decided, they were banned from fleeing, thus they are forced to fight.

Reminds me of how the soviets forced the Russian soldiers to rush the front without weapons, into German choke-points. At least they had the Allies behind them.
'
No, they're not forced to fight. They can go to the shelters like the old and the women and children or cower in some apartment. Of course the women might spit at them, from the reports.

I've seen what totalitarianism is like. If I lived there and didn't have young children, I'd get a rifle myself or make molotov cocktails.
 
They did not decided, they were banned from fleeing, thus they are forced to fight.

Reminds me of how the soviets forced the Russian soldiers to rush the front without weapons, into German choke-points. At least they had the Allies behind them.

Indeed man between the 18-55 are not supposed too leave the country indeed. I guess most don't do that already volontairy. And ten thousand of man come from Poland and other countries to the Ukraine.

It's courageous!
 
Don't get me wrong. I get the war fatigue in the US public and am aware of the polls. But the future of the free world might be at the crossroads here, maybe even more than the free world, the whole world order is put to a test and might crash to ashes, whatever will raise from it, it is in the interest of the free world for the US to have a say in it. The league of nations WW1-WW2, the united nations WW2-now, these are namely the previous two world orders we went through, both spearheaded by the US and stationed in NY. No one can deny despite the steep costs how much the United States and the $ has benefited from these two world orders. Now the world order is being questioned. I wonder what the next status quo will be.

Sorry for the tone in the previous post.
Also freedom is worth it. Sadly most people do not know what they have until they stand to lose it. We should not take our rights for granted.

I completely and utterly agree.
 
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082172618/why-ukraine-gave-up-its-nukes

Malaparte: While I did not vote for Bill Clinton either in 1992 or 1996, I don't think the USA deliberately did anything to Ukraine. Remember Major was PM of the UK, part of the Thatcher wing of the Conservative party in the UK (She was Reagan's best Ally and co-partner in NATO). So Clinton and Major together negotiated a deal with the Russians and Ukrainians to get the weapons out. Ukraine thought they had a binding agreement. Russia when they invaded Ukraine in 2014 simply said that was a different government that signed that deal, the Putin government does not recognize it. So it was the naivete of both Clinton and Major, and perhaps the thinking of the Ukrainians that at least the USA and UK would hold Russia accountable, even without acting with NATO. And it was even more naïve after the 2014 invasion into Ukraine to get more hooked on Putin for Oil and Gas supplies via direct pipelines.

Palermo, I am not questioning the decision to disarm Ukraine of nuclear weapons post-1991. Rather, what I take issue with is the policy that came to maturity in 2008, when we planted dreams of NATO membership for both Ukraine & Georgia. And since 2017 at the latest, and likely as early as 2008, we have been arming the Ukraine to the tune of billions of the dollars. Where was such a policy bound to lead? And what were the real motives? What was the overarching strategic vison?
 
As I have said repeatedly, this is all about keeping Russia out and Germany down, which means keeping the two of them apart. (A profoundly misguided policy, in my opinion, but this is the clear aim of US policymakers.) I therefore bring to your attention the Berlin-Baghdad railway, a predecessor of sorts to today's Nordstream 2, and a major cause of WWI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ivSYj6ioO4
 
Putin's confidence in his Superpowers would go through the roof if Ukraine surrendered after 3 days.

He would start to believe that he can regain Alaska in 4 days.

So you should be thankful that Ukrainians are dying to prevent the future Russian invasion of Alaska.

Well, maybe not Alaska yet, but I wouldn't be sleeping soundly if I lived in an Eastern European country.

Nobody with a conscience should be comfortable with the idea that it's just fine to let half the continent be re-enslaved, and that's exactly what would happen.

One would think that those European nations who thought it would be safe to become economically dependent on Russia have been permanently disabused of that idea. Once he was finished with the east, he would turn west. Germany, in particular, should have known better. How long did the German/Russian Pact during WWII last?

Ed. Not in response to you, Tomenable, but I can't believe some of the opinions I see posted. As if the Ukrainians give a DAMN about keeping Germany down. THEY DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A DICTATORSHIP! Many of them already lived under Russian rule, and they don't want a repeat. What, should the west have told them to lie down and accept it because some of us have this new world order we'd like to see go into effect? A new world order with Germany and a now touchy, feely Russia holding hands and dominating Europe? Good Grief!

Does anti-Americanism so blind some people that reality staring them in the face can be ignored?

They are promising to fight with knives and molotov cocktails if they don't have rifles. The west should be humbled by it.
 
The aim of Dugin the ideological Rasputin behind Putin is not more and nothing less to destroy his supposed 'liberal totalitarianism' with the US in front of it. We must not let that happen!

Looking anxiously at the rising oil prices and basing his vote on that. Time to show that we are more than that!

But if economic thoughts or thoughts about money permeate everything, then that grumbling will happen. You would agree with them, right?

Roar of laughter in the Kremlin because then the liberal world image is no more than a collection of $$$

It is high time to show that a resilient democracy involves more than the height of oil and gas prices.

I see that many, especially Americans, are talking about woke and Marxists before and after, all fine, but NOW in the actual fifth column are the authoritarian populists. The Kremlin has actively supported the election of Trump in 2016, and oh how Putin must have laughed at himself when that plan also came out. He could not have wished for a better destabilization of the USA.

A re-election of Trump, especially given the recent statements, but also with the same authoritarian populist background, we would be at the mercy of Putin. The NATO would be gone or become a lame duck. In that sense, I'm happy to have Biden in the White House, the old fox of foreign policy.

That fifth column of the Kremlin is really becoming a thing, one of the Dutch Putin's ideological 'relatives' has already been brought into contact with money from the Kremlin in the past and is now praising Putin to heaven.... The AfD in Germany ditto . So it doesn't stand alone. And still Angela starts to whine about woke and Marxists, man, take those Trumpists hard!

When Baudet and Trump's crouched texts for the Kremlin were in the 1950s at the time of the Hungarian uprising, Mc Carthy would have been behind the door, now it's all innocent Palemor?

Northerner: You keep missing my point. The EU, NATO, and the USA allowed Putin to destabilize NATO by precisely getting tied to Putin and Russian Oil and Gas. That has been the source of much of the contention. Trump is Trump, forget about him, because even now that he is gone, there are finally European leaders waking up that the Economic policy of Europe with Russian Oil and Gas is precisely why there was no push back on Putin when he 1) Invaded the Republic of Georgia and took over there Northern Provinces and 2) Invaded Crimea in 2014.

I have already gone down the Trump road with you. Not going to repeat it. And yes I have no use for anything Marxist. Trump's election was though a reaction to the elites of the USA regarding its arrogance towards people who still go to Church, live in small towns, own private business, working class jobs, and don't agree that 5 year old kids should be told they might need gender re-assignment surgery. That the US border is just a line that anyone can cross and to question it makes you a xenophobe. Trump, perhaps because he saw the "War fatigue" started hammering the Neo liberals (DEMS) and Neo-Cons (Republicans) who pushed for this order after the Soviet Union of globalist supply chain systems an trade, even with rouge states, with the hope that those countries would behave like the USA and Europe. It was stupid then and stupid now. I voted for George Bush 1, and to his credit, he did get an international coalition to deal with Sadam's invasion of Kuwait. But read the speech where he talks about the vital world economic impact if Sadam controlled the oil reserves in the Persian golf. This was the "new world order" speech.

As part of Bush 1 "new world Order", Bush 1 began this economic policy of globalist integration of the economic system which made the ruling elites "rich" at the expense of working-class Americans. Bush 1 would, even with the Tiananmen square incident, push for more China and USA trade relations. Despite criticisms of China and its Human rights abused, Clinton-Gore, Bush-Cheney, Obama-Biden continued Bush 1's "new world order" policies on both foreign policy and economic policy. It was and is all BS. Obama was pushing the TPP. Trump is the product of a failure of USA political leadership since the fall of the Soviet Union. Trump did not weaken NATO, NATO did to itself by allowing NATO countries Political leaders get to tied to Russia on Oil and Gas, which Putin weaponized. Trump was not a statesmen, yes, I agree, but on substance he was correct.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...d-order/b93b5cf1-e389-4e6a-84b0-85f71bf4c946/

After this Ukraine situation is resolved, the USA, Europe, countries like Australia and Japan and South Korea in the Asia-Pacific, and other Asian countries that want to integrate with countries that respect human rights, you trade and have economic ties with those countries. Yes, there are other countries that are not "Western" or like Asian countries like Japan and South Korea that have political systems that respect human rights and free elections that you might have to deal with (Countries in the Persian Gulf). So for example, countries like Qatar (who are relative to other countries in that region better on human rights), you can sign contracts to buy Oil and Natural Gas from them but they must commit not to fund terrorism. With that in mind, we don't interfere in their domestic affairs, they don't in ours..

But it is time for the USA and NATO to totally cut ties with Putin on economics. Totally. You can still buy oil and gas (Russian) on the spot market if there is an excess demand. The USA and NATO need to also decouple from China. If 5 years from now, you and I are still here (and I hope we both are), if the USA, NATO and EU, Australia, Japan, South Korea, etc, etc are still tied to Russia and China, then shame on us. And the surest way to avoid a Trumpian type Politician, is to do exactly that. And let me be clear, I dislike Trump personally, I have already said that, but on many issues like the China trade and Russian Oil and gas issues and the entire new world order project from Bush 1 to Obama, he was correct. So my vote from my perspective was not for Trump, it was 100% against Hillary Clinton. She is part of that same Neo-Liberal/Neo-con ideological cabal that I reject.
 
Germans love "ordnung" and think Russia has similar system, but that's wrong hopes
 
What is Germany's track record on international affairs?

To be fair, Germany is pretty much catching up. In the past they were considered to be pacifist, And in Merkel's period it was change through trade vis-à-vis Russia. That has now changed sharply under Scholz and as a result of Putin's aggression. Nordstreem 2 striped. Sharp sanction approved including SWIFT. And they have just decided, and that is really very exceptional for Germany, to supply arms to the Ukraine.

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/bund...kraine-a-499c95a6-5a65-4772-bb1d-39a181cf3ce1
 

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