Politics Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

[Angela]

I always wonder why someone is always stating leave the European or the crap alone, should have been done for decades. And at the same time spend hours and hours on EUPEDIA, spell again EUPEDIA and calls herself still ethnic Italian as long as I know part of Europe the EU the NATO etc. I can't cope that....

And on top of that the Russians are also influencing the USA too. But no the thoughts are in and about Europe but the wallet is obviously closed imo indeed a grocery mentality, like good old- I want my money back- Maggie Thatcher.

Hey Angela call on the US to join forces to battle against authoritarian-populism...this affects in the end NY and bella Italia too.....

To think that a call for the members of NATO to fulfill their financial obligations for the defense of Europe, and also to build their own defensive forces should invite such vitriol. Is it perhaps because there is no excuse and so therefore one is left with personal attacks?

Perhaps you should also address your words to Palermo, and perhaps Jovialis, and some of our other members, or is it only women you feel like harassing for their opinions?

Oh, and by the way, I have the right to call to task the U.S., Italy, NATO or anyone or any organization I please. How dare you try to tell me whom I am allowed to criticize?

What a bully you are.

You insult me or harass me again and I assure you the consequences will be far more severe than an infraction.

 

[Northener]

To think that a call for the members of NATO to fulfill their financial obligations for the defense of Europe, and also to build their own defensive forces should invite such vitriol. Is it perhaps because there is no excuse and so therefore one is left with personal attacks?

Perhaps you should also address your words to Palermo, and perhaps Jovialis, and some of our other members, or is it only women you feel like harassing for their opinions?

Oh, and by the way, I have the right to call to task the U.S., Italy, NATO or anyone or any organization I please. How dare you try to tell me whom I am allowed to criticize?

What a bully you are.

You insult me or harass me again and I assure you the consequences will be far more severe than an infraction.

First of all it's imo not a personal (ad hominem) attack, nor is it aimed to, but imo an incongruent kind of view, so on the matter not the person.

I agree it's about a personal view but I can see the difference. I don't why you pick out Jovialis and Palermo, because I discus with them too....So?

I have the right to call to task the U.S., Italy, NATO or anyone or any organization

Of course 100% no doubt....Just I have the right to criticize you about (not personal but imo an incongruent in content) those two points:

I completely agree that the U.S. should not be doing the heavy lifting as far as NATO is concerned. It's incredible that we've put up with this crap for decades.

No, the U.S. should not take the lead. It's time for us to stop being Europe's savior.

NATO is not "crap" imo. And savior is also about self interest.

And its indeed a big wondering why you use crap and stop being savior....so 'bye bye Europe'. And at the same time this forum:

The Eupedia Forum is a community of people who share a deep interest in Europe and European culture.

So "crap" and 'bye bye Europe'.

I can't cope that. I know this can feel uncomfortable....nevertheless this is imo not an insulting or illegitimate question.

 

[Angela]

I have no time for illogical arguments.

I can be a European and criticize Europe, just as I can be an American and criticize America. There is absolutely nothing incongruent about it.

What is "crap" is not NATO but the nations of Europe by and large not paying their contracted share of the costs. It is an opinion shared by Palermo and Jovialis. Why are you making it personal only to me?

As I said, perhaps it's easier for you to harass women rather than men for their opinions.

I have no interest in having debates with people who cannot be logical, will not answer questions, and moreover seems to delight in harassing me. Direct your questions to the others who have opined on the matter. You will receive no further comments from me.

If you persist in making this personal, you'll get another infraction, and it will escalate from there if you ignore this post.

 

[Northener]

I have no time for illogical arguments.

I can be a European and criticize Europe, just as I can be an American and criticize America. There is absolutely nothing incongruent about it.

What is "crap" is not NATO but the nations of Europe by and large not paying their contracted share of the costs. It is an opinion shared by Palermo and Jovialis. Why are you making it personal only to me?

As I said, perhaps it's easier for you to harass women rather than men for their opinions.

I have no interest in having debates with people who cannot be logical, will not answer questions, and moreover seems to delight in harassing me. Direct your questions to the others who have opined on the matter. You will receive no further comments from me.

If you persist in making this personal, you'll get another infraction, and it will escalate from there if you ignore this post.

And I discuss with Jovialis and Palermo likewise.

I disagree with you on the fact that US is not only savior, but has also self intrest in this mater. Why leaving the NATO, only because of the money?

So really if you don't pay the 2% then it's exit?

And ok that is legitimate position, nevertheless I hope that the Nato means more than 2% of GDP...

We now see what in a new time frame with the attack of Putin is the new function of NATO. Imo the last times there was more unity than ever!

 

[bigsnake49]

Well I understand the US perhaps should have not gotten involve with NORD2. But as an American voter who is tired of all the neo-liberal (DEM) and neo-con (REP) foreign policy adventures where US kids get sent to fight wars abroad for what I don't know, this whole NORD2 and NATO arrangement where Germany as the 4th largest economy in the world still does not pay the NATO required 2% of GDP is a sticking point. As I noted it was Trump trying to stop the NORD2 which directly links Russian distribution terminals to German ports that can receive LNG. From an American perspective, it seems strange for the US to have 35K forces stationed in Germany, which is about 1/2 of the normal 70k stationed in Europe, Germany being the country with the most US personnel stationed in Europe, the other top countries are the UK, Italy )US Navy 6th fleet is based in Southern Italy near Naples) and Turkey. So who are these 35K US troops defending Germany from? Russia? Yet, Germany unilaterally contracts with Putin to build NORD2 so they can meet their Oil and Gas supplies as they move away from Coal and Nuclear power. I totally get the economics of it from Germany's perspective and Putin wanting to sell Oil and Gas to the European markets (4 of the 8 largest Economies in the world are in Europe, Germany 4, UK 5, France 7 and Italy 8). But in terms of NATO and military spending in terms of assets and personnel, why am I as a US tax payer paying for Germany's defense. They can afford to pay the NATO costs of keeping US forces at that level committed in Germany.

The 2% is a spending target for all NATO countries. They don't own 2% of the GDP to NATO, it's a recommendation. But then why would Germany spend 2% of GDP on NATO when they have the US protect them? They have a different agenda. East Germany is still not fully integrated with West Germany. Pretty poor area compared with the western part.

The reasons for stationing the 35K soldiers in Germany are multiple:
1. Pre-position US forces in case of a Russian attack on Europe
2. Protect Germany's neighbor's from Germany

 

[real expert]

The 2% is a spending target for all NATO countries. They don't own 2% of the GDP to NATO, it's a recommendation. But then why would Germany spend 2% of GDP on NATO when they have the US protect them? They have a different agenda. East Germany is still not fully integrated with West Germany. Pretty poor area compared with the western part.

The reasons for stationing the 35K soldiers in Germany are multiple:
1. Pre-position US forces in case of a Russian attack on Europe
2. Protect Germany's neighbor's from Germany

Germany’s military has become a complete joke. It can’t fulfill its role as a Nato member, let alone form the heart of a European defense force. In addition Germany depends on Russian gas because of the disappearing coal and nuclear energy( "climate protection policy") which is being replaced by Russian gas.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

The 2% is a spending target for all NATO countries. They don't own 2% of the GDP to NATO, it's a recommendation. But then why would Germany spend 2% of GDP on NATO when they have the US protect them? They have a different agenda. East Germany is still not fully integrated with West Germany. Pretty poor area compared with the western part.

The reasons for stationing the 35K soldiers in Germany are multiple:
1. Pre-position US forces in case of a Russian attack on Europe
2. Protect Germany's neighbor's from Germany

So why can't France and the UK other NATO countries bear the brunt of defending Germany from Russia. And I understand the 2% is a recommendation, but Germany is the 4th largest economy in the World. And you precisely made my point for me. Germany given its military history in the 2 World War's in the 20th century is probably themselves not keen on militarizing too much, as you say why spend money on its own military when the US has 35K forces there. Fair enough, I am not advocating for Germany to form for the sake of argument 5 new Infantry Divisions and 5 new Armored Divisions and 2 Airborne divisions. That could cause concerns among its neighbors. However, Germany can afford to pay more for NATO defense of Germany of which the USA is incurring significant costs. And Yes I understand Germany has its own agenda as does France who think they can tell the rest of the European countries what the EU should do and sometimes they act unilaterally which impacts NATO which impacts the USA. For example, as I noted before the NORD2 was a unilateral deal between Germany and Russia and was not viewed favorably by most of the countries that border Germany.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

And I discuss with Jovialis and Palermo likewise.

I disagree with you on the fact that US is not only savior, but has also self intrest in this mater. Why leaving the NATO, only because of the money?

So really if you don't pay the 2% then it's exit?

And ok that is legitimate position, nevertheless I hope that the Nato means more than 2% of GDP...

We now see what in a new time frame with the attack of Putin is the new function of NATO. Imo the last times there was more unity than ever!

Northerner: I don't think Angela, Jovialis or me have advocated leaving NATO. But what pisses my off is the ripe anti-Americanism that I see in certain European countries. Yet, when people in the USA start questioning it in its current form, these same anti-American Europeans start ranting about NATO. My position is just this, every European country in NATO needs to pay what the 2014 agreement I think it was (which Obama negotiated). Furthermore, the Soviet-Union no longer exists and as an American I am glad in Post WW2 that the USA created NATO which prevented the Soviet Union pushing Westward and allowed European countries torn up by WW2 to recover. I am also glad that when I was in Rome and Sicily in 2019, I never once detected any anti-Americanism from Italians there. In fact, everyone I met (I am in my 50's) new of and remembered relatives of theirs that were and still are in the USA. Italy, along with your country the Netherlands, were among the 12 charter members of NATO and I am glad that the USA has a very good working relationship with Italy (as evidenced by the fact that Italy is among the top 4 countries where US personnel are stationed). The US Navy 6th Fleet is based in Naples allowing the US to cover the entire Mediterranean from Spain to the Levant.

So no I am not like one of those school boys who when they did not get there way, took the ball and went home and the ball game was over because that kid was the only one with the ball. So I am not for the US getting out of NATO. What I am for is a re-constituted NATO that looks at Europe as it is now. Here are the top 25 economies in the world, it seems that these European countries in this top 25 can do more to share the burden of NATO.


https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

As for Angela's comment's you misconstrued what she said. Nobody is calling NATO crap. What people are saying is NATO will stop the Russians seems to always mean the USA will do it mostly along with the UK. Germany and France and others need to contribute, that is all I think is being said. Hungary to its credit mobilized its Military today to protect its border with Ukraine if Russia pushes that far West. Good for them. The USA, which has small contingent in Hungary asked Hungary if more USA personnel is needed there. Hungary said no and is mobilizing its own military and moving them to the east near the border with Ukraine.


https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...der-with-ukraine-defence-ministry-2022-02-22/


Here was the force structure as of 10 February 2022. Hungary now is plugging the gap between Romania and Slovakia. Poland has forces. So can't some other countries commit to putting forces under a NATO command say in Slovakia?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/10/europe/nato-troops-eastern-europe-map-intl-cmd/index.html

My position is simply this. The USA should assist Europe here, just as many European countries sent forces to help the USA take out Al Qaeda and at least put a hurt on the Taliban until the US finally said time to go home. At the same time, I think there needs to be more European countries sending some combat troops East other than the ones that I have done so now.

 

[Angela]

The 2% is a spending target for all NATO countries. They don't own 2% of the GDP to NATO, it's a recommendation. But then why would Germany spend 2% of GDP on NATO when they have the US protect them? They have a different agenda. East Germany is still not fully integrated with West Germany. Pretty poor area compared with the western part.

The reasons for stationing the 35K soldiers in Germany are multiple:
1. Pre-position US forces in case of a Russian attack on Europe
2. Protect Germany's neighbor's from Germany

So, it's perfectly ok for Germany to say, hey, sorry, but I have some internal problems on which I have to spend money so I guess I just won't fulfill my "recommended" payments and I'll let the U.S. pick up the bill for my defense, because of course they don't have any pressing internal problems they might like to address with that money.

Oh, and I guess they're adding, btw, send "your" young men and women here to fight for all of us if we're attacked.

Sometimes I can't believe the stuff that comes out of people's mouths where the U.S. is concerned, even though they seem perfectly reasonable and nice in other matters.

When do the European countries take the appropriate responsibility for their own defense?

 

[firetown]

So, it's perfectly ok for Germany to say, hey, sorry, but I have some internal problems on which I have to spend money so I guess I just won't fulfill my "recommended" payments and I'll let the U.S. pick up the bill for my defense, because of course they don't have any pressing internal problems they might like to address with that money.

Oh, and I guess they're adding, btw, send "your" young men and women here to fight for all of us if we're attacked.

Sometimes I can't believe the stuff that comes out of people's mouths where the U.S. is concerned, even though they seem perfectly reasonable and nice in other matters.

When do the European countries take the appropriate responsibility for their own defense?

Hasn't this been the attitude since WWII?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Hasn't this been the attitude since WWII?

even before

the French army was all about defending Paris

they left the north of their country open for Hittler's army to march on to Dunkerque

Hittler should never have reached Dunkerque and the war should never have lasted for 5 years

Hittler was actually defeated because he became overconfident because of the ease with which he had conquered France

he thaught he could conquer Russia with the same ease

 

[Northener]

So, it's perfectly ok for Germany to say, hey, sorry, but I have some internal problems on which I have to spend money so I guess I just won't fulfill my "recommended" payments and I'll let the U.S. pick up the bill for my defense, because of course they don't have any pressing internal problems they might like to address with that money.

Oh, and I guess they're adding, btw, send "your" young men and women here to fight for all of us if we're attacked.

Sometimes I can't believe the stuff that comes out of people's mouths where the U.S. is concerned, even though they seem perfectly reasonable and nice in other matters.

When do the European countries take the appropriate responsibility for their own defense?

Northerner: I don't think Angela, Jovialis or me have advocated leaving NATO. But what pisses my off is the ripe anti-Americanism that I see in certain European countries. Yet, when people in the USA start questioning it in its current form, these same anti-American Europeans start ranting about NATO. My position is just this, every European country in NATO needs to pay what the 2014 agreement I think it was (which Obama negotiated). Furthermore, the Soviet-Union no longer exists and as an American I am glad in Post WW2 that the USA created NATO which prevented the Soviet Union pushing Westward and allowed European countries torn up by WW2 to recover. I am also glad that when I was in Rome and Sicily in 2019, I never once detected any anti-Americanism from Italians there. In fact, everyone I met (I am in my 50's) new of and remembered relatives of theirs that were and still are in the USA. Italy, along with your country the Netherlands, were among the 12 charter members of NATO and I am glad that the USA has a very good working relationship with Italy (as evidenced by the fact that Italy is among the top 4 countries where US personnel are stationed). The US Navy 6th Fleet is based in Naples allowing the US to cover the entire Mediterranean from Spain to the Levant.

So no I am not like one of those school boys who when they did not get there way, took the ball and went home and the ball game was over because that kid was the only one with the ball. So I am not for the US getting out of NATO. What I am for is a re-constituted NATO that looks at Europe as it is now. Here are the top 25 economies in the world, it seems that these European countries in this top 25 can do more to share the burden of NATO.


https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

As for Angela's comment's you misconstrued what she said. Nobody is calling NATO crap. What people are saying is NATO will stop the Russians seems to always mean the USA will do it mostly along with the UK. Germany and France and others need to contribute, that is all I think is being said. Hungary to its credit mobilized its Military today to protect its border with Ukraine if Russia pushes that far West. Good for them. The USA, which has small contingent in Hungary asked Hungary if more USA personnel is needed there. Hungary said no and is mobilizing its own military and moving them to the east near the border with Ukraine.


https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...der-with-ukraine-defence-ministry-2022-02-22/


Here was the force structure as of 10 February 2022. Hungary now is plugging the gap between Romania and Slovakia. Poland has forces. So can't some other countries commit to putting forces under a NATO command say in Slovakia?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/10/europe/nato-troops-eastern-europe-map-intl-cmd/index.html

My position is simply this. The USA should assist Europe here, just as many European countries sent forces to help the USA take out Al Qaeda and at least put a hurt on the Taliban until the US finally said time to go home. At the same time, I think there needs to be more European countries sending some combat troops East other than the ones that I have done so now.

First of all the continent is getting on fire, there are nearly 200.000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border, and all we can imagine here is a discussion how to split the bill? Well that is, quoting you, what really pisses me off. By the way I'm supposed to be Dutch isn't it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_Dutch So we are on the brink of a world war and all we can think about is $.

It's m much more complicated than you suggest. America as 'savior' even to the expense of themselves? To stay somewhat in economics on the whole the US earns more money from the EU than the reverse. So the Europeans make you on the whole richer than poorer.

But back to the military.Being a superpower is something the US has chosen for, the mission was, to make the world safe for democracy during WW1 until the neocons in Irak with implanting democracy. That is not asked it is chosen, even a mission!

Nearly 100 years ago, the United States of America entered World War I, not only to protect its diplomatic and economic interests, but also, in the words of President Woodrow Wilson, to “make the world safe for democracy.” More than four million American men and women served in uniform during World War I. Millions more made sacrifices in support of the war effort.

https://www.usmint.gov/news/design-competitions/world-war-i/america-in-the-war

So only savior? With no diplomatic and economic interests? And without a self chosen mission?

On top of that the military has become big business in your country, inclusive lobby etc.

Speaking of the Netherlands we aren't anti american. It's after the UK the country of Europe with the biggest cultural influence of the US. US elections are prime time subject. During Liberation Day (5 May) the US soldiers still are invited to celebrate the end of ww2. So in that sense gratefulness. By the way saillant detail without founding of the Dutch Republic in the 18th century the US couldn't start so well...May be we were some savior too

Nevertheless with regard to the split of the bill. The circumstances are vey different. We are a city state, a kind of Singapore, besides the marine in the colonial period we never had a military tradition...nor pretention.

Germany is even more apart. After ww2 it was: no more war, pacifism! The allies implanted this very heavily in Germany! Meanwhile it's internalized and that's no joke. Spending of the military have always been controversial in Germany. I guess even until recently (or it's even still the case I don't know) military missions were not even allowed....

So decennia of implanting pacifism and then expecting the reverse is not realized over night.

Last but not least I'm fed up whit that money thing if this all we can imagine under the topic 'Russia attack Ukraine' imo plain nihilsm has prevailed!

 

[firetown]

even before

the French army was all about defending Paris

they left the north of their country open for Hittler's army to march on to Dunkerque

Hittler should never have reached Dunkerque and the war should never have lasted for 5 years

Hittler was actually defeated because he became overconfident because of the ease with which he had conquered France

he thaught he could conquer Russia with the same ease

True.
Hitler was definitely delusional.
I always cringe when people refer to him as an intelligent person.
He was able to connect with the lowest level among the German mindset at the time and speak their "minds".
What I was referring to is actually how Germans after WWII were grateful towards Americans.
The "Candybombers" over Berlin.
One famous one passed a few days ago aged 102.
But all of that became taken for granted by the 1980s.

 

[firetown]

First of all the continent is getting on fire,

No... a part of the continent relatively small compared to the whole.

there are nearly 200.000 Russian troops on the Ukrainian border,

Why?

and all we can imagine here is a discussion how to split the bill?

I have news for you:
It's almost always about money... period!

Well that is, quoting you, what really pisses me off.

I prefer to know reality rather than trying to avoid it.

 

[Northener]

No... a part of the continent relatively small compared to the whole

Why?

I have news for you:
It's almost always about money... period!

I prefer to know reality rather than trying to avoid it.

I been laid off from work
My rent is due
My kids all need
Brand new shoes
So I went to the bank
To see what they could do
They said son - looks like bad luck
Got-a hold on you
Money's too tight to mention
I can't get an un-em-ploy-ment ex-ten-sion
Money's too tight to mention
I went to my brother
To see what he could do
He said bro-ther like to help you
But I'm unable to
So I called on my fa-ther fa-ther
Oh my fa-ther
He said
Money's too tight to mention
Oh mo-ney mo-ney mo-ney mon-ey
Mo-ney's too tight to mention
I can't even qual-i-fy for my pension
We talk a-bout rea-gan-om-ics
Oh lord down in the con-gress
They're passing all kinds - of bills
From down cap-it-ol hill - (we've tried them)
Money's too tight to mention
[Spoken] cut-backs!
Mo-ney mo-ney mo-ney mon-ey
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
We're talk-in' 'bout the dollar bill
And that ol' man that's over the hill
Now what are we all to do
When the mon-ey's got a hold on you?
Mo-ney's too tight to mention
Oh mon-ey mon-ey mon-ey mon-ey
Mo-ney's too tight to mention
A-mero - mon-ey oh yeah
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey
We're talk-in' a-bout mon-ey mon-ey

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Northerner: No my problem is that all these years later, and the USA is still having to spend that much in Europe for Europe's defense. The fact that all these years since the end of the Cold war, European countries are not paying what they should pay yes is a problem. Why because that imposes those costs in terms of money and personnel on the USA. The less Europe spends on providing some basic force structure to support NATO, the more the USA has to. And I am not only talking about $$$, that issue was more related to what has not been resolved since the collapse of the former Soviet Union. Regarding the current situation, my issue is not the $$$$, it is which Countries in Europe are sending troops towards the Ukraine border and which ones are not?

And as for the Anti-Americanism I did not say it was all of Europe, but lets not pretend it does not exist in some countries.

 

[Northener]

Northerner: No my problem is that all these years later, and the USA is still having to spend that much in Europe for Europe's defense. The fact that all these years since the end of the Cold war, European countries are not paying what they should pay yes is a problem. Why because that imposes those costs in terms of money and personnel on the USA. The less Europe spends on providing some basic force structure to support NATO, the more the USA has to. And I am not only talking about $$$, that issue was more related to what has not been resolved since the collapse of the former Soviet Union. Regarding the current situation, my issue is not the $$$$, it is which Countries in Europe are sending troops towards the Ukraine border and which ones are not?

And as for the Anti-Americanism I did not say it was all of Europe, but lets not pretend it does not exist in some countries.

That's also because USA had the ambition to be a superpower. Being a superpower comes also with burdens

As said you are on the whole not getting poorer from the Europeans. And the military-industrial complex is a whole export product of your country.

No I don't think you are 'the fool of the world'....so 'savior' huhuh.

Like I said in the case of military you have to take account several things, like in the Germany the stress on pacifism by the allies.....

One thing is amazing me, all Italians I have met have a feeling for 'bella figura'.

Do you know what is contributing to a sense of anti-Americanism, this 'brutta figura':

Merkel's first visit to Trump.....

 

[real expert]

So decennia of implanting pacifism and then expecting the reverse is not realized over night.

There was a campaign in Germany called "Disarm instead of upgrade" against any major investments in the military/army. Germans, especially the Youth struggle with the military, specifically the idea that the military is an element of geopolitical power. Therefore Germans don't want a strong military since they rely on having the strongest economy in Europe and there are of course historical issues. In fact, Germany proceeds to disarm its military. Anyway, a strong and stable USA is in all of our interests, at least for us who live in the Western world. Biden is unfortunately a weak leader.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Northerner: Sorry to disappoint you but among Europeans, survey after survey after survey has shown Italians are among the least anti-American. Pew Surveys show that only 4 countries had favorable views of the USA in 2021, Poland, Hungary, Italy and UK. And I understand some Europeans champion Merkel, I had total disdain for her. The old Christian-Democrat German leader Helmut Kohl whose Bavarian-Southern German background I found much more appealing than Merkel's secular elite snobbish personality that is similar to the modern American Left that you find here today.

 

[Northener]

I guess why you don't understand Putin is that Putin is reasoning from history. He is part of a bigger story than himself. The reconstruction of Kiev/ Rus. Besides that his kind of thinking i kind revanche driven (after the collaps of the USSR).

The Amerikanskis, even the ones who seem to be affiliated with Europe (like on Expedia), seems only to think in $

It's almost always about money... period!

So Europe is attacked on the one hand by someonewho seem to think in a kind of an historical task, the unifying spirit of Rus. And on the other hand the old Trans-Atlantic alliance member at the other side of the see that obviously can only see a big calculator...

Ok may be the old mission of the US to make the world safe for democracy was a bit to exaggerated but a little spirit of that thinking, a sparkle of that, would do good imo....

President Roosevelt (of Dutch ancestry):



changed for:

What a loss, what a nihilism.....