Politics Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

[Tomenable]

It is obvious that millions of Ukrainians fled from Donbas since year 2014-onwards.

At the same time, probably millions of Russians from across the border immigrated.

We don't know the exact % of population turnover, but it must have been significant.

 

[Riverman]

I can't stand when some politicians or other public figures are publicly anti-guy but in private are gay.

That's a completely different topic, but what's for you "anti-gay"? For me truly anti-gay people are those which would bully and beat homosexuals or would want them to get imprisoned or executed. Take for example the Islamic State in Syria-Iraq, that was truly "anti-gay". If someone opposes demands made by the LGBT representatives and political parties using these communities and their most radical minority views to undermine other spheres of society, is this really "anti-gay"? Like I said, I have no issue with what people do in private, as long as they don't harm other people or the community with what they do. Offensive "pro-gay" and "anti-heteronormative" or anti-male politics, is different, its way more than just being tolerant towards what people do in private.

Nowadays, people being called "homophob" and "transphob" or anti-gay etc. not for being like the Islamic State, but for being just against social engineering and re-education of their children in the sense of identity politics is being considered "anti" already.

If you are against kids in school getting a specific "woke" indoctrination, and you speak out about this - there are actually quite a few homosexuals which are not that fond of such policies and propagand themselves - does that make someone "anti-gay" and does he needs to "get exposed" for his "double standards"? But that's the tactics and propaganda they are using. There are radical homosexual feminists out there which publicly said they have a distaste for heterosexual couples with children, a distaste for the classical family. What are they? They are more anti-heterosexual and anti-family than most conservative people are "anti-gay" these days.
Just because a homosexual is still a reasonable person which thinks about the interests and future of other people, with a different orientation, and the development of his community as a whole, doesn't make him a "hypocritical" or dishonest person. He might just differentiate between what's good for the state and people and his sex drive and preferences in private, something all politicians should be able to do.

 

[Riverman]

It is obvious that millions of Ukrainians fled from Donbas since year 2014-onwards.

At the same time, probably millions of Russians from across the border immigrated.

We don't know the exact % of population turnover, but it must have been significant.

Do you deny that there are many millions of Ukrainian citizens which were and many of which still are pro-Russian? And that the majority in Donbas in particular is pro-Russian? But even if not, a fair, internationally observed plebiscit of all registered inhabitants by 2014 would show, wouldn't you say? So why is this no fair solution I may ask?
Because the Selenski regime just wants to suppresse and exile all pro-Russians, by force. Even the age old inhabitants of these regions, to have a more powerful Ukraine at the flank of Russia and simply because they don't want a peace which would allow Russia to get out heads up. And that's the problem, that's why this war started, they were deliberately confrontational in Kiev, with the back up of the Biden administration.

 

[Northener]

That's a completely different topic, but what's for you "anti-gay"? For me truly anti-gay people are those which would bully and beat homosexuals or would want them to get imprisoned or executed. Take for example the Islamic State in Syria-Iraq, that was truly "anti-gay". If someone opposes demands made by the LGBT representatives and political parties using these communities and their most radical minority views to undermine other spheres of society, is this really "anti-gay"? Like I said, I have no issue with what people do in private, as long as they don't harm other people or the community with what they do. Offensive "pro-gay" and "anti-heteronormative" or anti-male politics, is different, its way more than just being tolerant towards what people do in private.

Nowadays, people being called "homophob" and "transphob" or anti-gay etc. not for being like the Islamic State, but for being just against social engineering and re-education of their children in the sense of identity politics is being considered "anti" already.

If you are against kids in school getting a specific "woke" indoctrination, and you speak out about this - there are actually quite a few homosexuals which are not that fond of such policies and propagand themselves - does that make someone "anti-gay" and does he needs to "get exposed" for his "double standards"? But that's the tactics and propaganda they are using. There are radical homosexual feminists out there which publicly said they have a distaste for heterosexual couples with children, a distaste for the classical family. What are they? They are more anti-heterosexual and anti-family than most conservative people are "anti-gay" these days.
Just because a homosexual is still a reasonable person which thinks about the interests and future of other people, with a different orientation, and the development of his community as a whole, doesn't make him a "hypocritical" or dishonest person. He might just differentiate between what's good for the state and people and his sex drive and preferences in private, something all politicians should be able to do.

The point is Riverman that from public figures there can be a discrepancy between they public statements and private behavior.

If someone from the 'woke' movement (whatever that is) would beat up gays, the same applies. It's imo relevant info if someone acts that way.

Pim Fortuyn, the godfather of the Dutch populists, had his own place in this, when asked whether he hated Moroccans ....'A hate? Ma'am I **** them...' That's not as sneaky as Haider....on the contrary.


Anyway, as a voter, I want to know whether the people I vote for have double standards (public claim completely different than private act). To me that says something about being able to trust someone. I'm pretty strict about that. Others can of course make completely different assessments with the same knowledge (maybe that doesn't matter...). So be it.

 

[Vallicanus]

Riverman is a Russian bot.

No human agency could be so repetitive, long-winded and tedious.

 

[Riverman]

Riverman is a Russian bot.

No human agency could be so repetitive, long-winded and tedious.

I prefer arguments before slurs and memes usually, I know that became old-fashioned these days. Your contributions to the debate are so valuable, thank you.

 

[Jovialis]

When someone chooses a public position, he knows that he lives in a glass house. Of course no license for a witch hunt .... but exposing a double standard (public and private acting opposite) is very healthy I think!

Of course, but it is reasonable to think a lot of allegations are just false. There are some people that believe the Democrats and liberal elites are satanic pedophiles.

 

[Vallicanus]

I prefer arguments before slurs and memes usually, I know that became old-fashioned these days. Your contributions to the debate are so valuable, thank you.

You don't argue or debate.

You just toe the mendacious Kremlin party line. It is not even competent at lying.

Russia has no right to feel superior when its history since Ivan the Terrible is one long disgraceful catalogue of lies, cruelty and large-scale bloodshed at home and abroad.

 

[Jovialis]

I saw Razib Khan re-tweet this one. Looks like it is not only okay to be racist against Italians, but you can also be racist against Russians now too. I wonder if this Professor Booty will be labeled a racist by twitter, or is that okay because he supports BLM? I know this is just some random, irrelevant idiot, but it certainly captures our social dynamics.

 

[Northener]

Of course, but it is reasonable to think a lot of allegations are just false. There are some people that believe the Democrats and liberal elites are satanic pedophiles.

Yes in the line of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizzagate_conspiracy_theory

or this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati#Modern_Illuminati

Malaparte points at Icke also in that hyper hysterical line.


In casu Haider and Pretzel it's beside the tendency to a double moral also something that such extreme right party's want to retouch immediately:

Petzner's statements were criticized within the party as misleading and fit to be interpreted as insinuating a homosexual relationship between Haider and Petzner. His party's officials made a rushed attempt to limit the damage for the image of their far-right group and banned several other interviews that were to have occurred that week.

Pezner was immediately relegated to the sidelines.

It's the atmosphere of cover up and the big tabu's etc. IMO quit disgusting. But ok <back to topic>

 

[Tomenable]

American intelligence taking rounds around Krolewiec :

https://books.google.pl/books?id=xgUEAAAAYAAJ&pg=P218

 

[Northener]

Of course, but it is reasonable to think a lot of allegations are just false. There are some people that believe the Democrats and liberal elites are satanic pedophiles.

More on topic the European extra right from the AfD in Germany to Lega Nord in Italy and from Rassemblement National in France to Forum voor Democratie en Partij van de Vrijheid in the Netherlands and the FPÖ in Austria have ideological and even organizational ties with Vladimir Putin.

Even to a level of a fifth column.

Riverman has a such like ideological and apologetic stance to Putin.

They still justify Putin's invasion. They have fallen by the wayside. I'm curious what spin they give to this because the image of traitors is lurking.... Moreover, they are so similar in content to Putin's 'fourth ideological theory' that they can no longer easily distance themselves from it. I think it's a bad idea that in a country like the Netherlands up to 20% of the population understands this (fortunately the vast majority disapproves, there is a lot of sympathy and solidarity with Ukraine). And that goes for the majority of Europeans!

 

[Tomenable]

Weakness of the Russian army explained:

https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1502673952572854278

 

[Riverman]

If a plebiscite takes place, these should be the conditions:

1) Everyone who lived in the region before 2014 should be allowed to vote, no matter where they live now

2) Everyone who settled in the rebel-held territory between 2014 and 2022 should not be allowed to vote

Do you agree with these points ???

I think only locals should vote, which means residents by birth/long time residents. No newly incoming migrants from either side in the last decades. Basically yes, would be fair from my point of view and should have been proposed 2014-2022 and now again...

 

[MOESAN]

It's not Selenski, but Zelenski - He is not a holly man either.
We are all in a world of lies and geopolitic challenge. I would like to know what were the percentages of pro- vs anti- for every side in Dombass, spite I suppose the most of them were rather pro-Ukraine. The intrusion of non-Ukrainan Russian people and material is almost sure. The an is so cynical... I'm OK with referendum, even if it can be dangerous in badly settled debates, what occurs often. But the truth is that, even if Americans and liberal Europeans (western and central!) are not white doves, Putin since a long time is dreaming of a Great Russia and pushing his pawns. He has seen that western people are no more prone to fight. He dreams of a good "balance sheet" before he dies, to have "his" folk forgetting his disastrous gestion at the internal level.

 

[Angela]

Weakness of the Russian army explained:

https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1502673952572854278

It's all just excuses, as always. Their military was just as incompetent in World War II. They were saved by their weather, Hitler's stupidity in not factoring that in and not having proper supply lines bkz it was more important to use the trains to transport Jews to extermination camps than to feed the troops, and the willingness of Russian soldiers to blindly follow orders and just accept being used as cannon fodder. All they ever do is throw their poor soldiers at the enemy. Strategy, logistics etc. seem alien to them. I mean, I'm no graduate of one of the military academies, but who would think it's a good idea to line all your tanks up out on open roads with no cover, no plans for re-supplying them, no engineers to rebuild blown up bridges, etc. etc. What are they teaching in "their" military academies.

In less than two weeks they're going to lose as many young men as the U.S. lost in all the years fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I don't know what explains it. It can't be cognitive inferiority, can it, of the people who go into the military? Is it because when you are under the rule of an autocrat you can't admit you made a mistake or the plan someone above you put into place is stupid?

It goes beyond the military too. There's no reason Russia should be such a backward country in terms of industry etc.

 

[bigsnake49]

It's not Selenski, but Zelenski - He is not a holly man either.
We are all in a world of lies and geopolitic challenge. I would like to know what were the percentages of pro- vs anti- for every side in Dombass, spite I suppose the most of them were rather pro-Ukraine. The intrusion of non-Ukrainan Russian people and material is almost sure. The an is so cynical... I'm OK with referendum, even if it can be dangerous in badly settled debates, what occurs often. But the truth is that, even if Americans and liberal Europeans (western and central!) are not white doves, Putin since a long time is dreaming of a Great Russia and pushing his pawns. He has seen that western people are no more prone to fight. He dreams of a good "balance sheet" before he dies, to have "his" folk forgetting his disastrous gestion at the internal level.

What happens to the minority if there's a 60/40 split or a 55/45? Do you expel the Ukrainian speakers?

 

[bicicleur 2]

So many Valicanus! But I must admit they all belong to the same corner.....of right wing populist.

An example of Rivermans homeland is Jörg Haider, long time leader of the FPÖ, one of the earliest right wing populist party's.

Of course not pro gay rights for example in the meantime he was most likely an in the closet gay himself.

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna27363925

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jörg_Haider#Posthumous_controversies

Left wing populism exists too, but it has never been labeled populist.
It's even been accepted as mainstream.

That's why the horrors of Stalin were never exposed in post-war Europe.
Holodomor in Ukraine is one example of this.

The PTB-PVDA in Belgium is one such movement.
They defended Putin invading Ukraine, but then they made a U-turn because their position was not sustainable.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Weakness of the Russian army explained:

https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1502673952572854278

It's not only the weakness of the Russian army.
It's also the courage and fierceness of the Ukrainian people.
And the fact that Ukraine has had 8 years experience in resisting the rebels in the eastern provinces.

Those who know me here will have noticed I'm not a proud Belgian.
If Belgium were invaded, the majority of the Belgians - including myself - wouldn't find it worth fighting for.
Belgium is a prosperous country where it is good to live.
But that is despite it's leaders.

I also believe the majority of West-Europeans would not be willing to fight, albeit maybe for different reasons.
And as for the whole of Europe there is a lack of leadership. There is to much a culture of conformity and a naïve sense of moral superiority.

 

[Jovialis]

I saw Razib Khan re-tweet this one. Looks like it is not only okay to be racist against Italians, but you can also be racist against Russians now too. I wonder if this Professor Booty will be labeled a racist by twitter, or is that okay because he supports BLM? I know this is just some random, irrelevant idiot, but it certainly captures our social dynamics.

This post on Twitter is an example of crude left-wing populism.