Politics Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

People sleeping in the corridor of one of evacuation trains in Ukraine, from Poltava to Lviv.

17 hours in train with all curtains closed, so that no light escapes and train doesn’t become a target of Russian troops.
















 
What we hopefully can all agree with is that what happens to both soldiers and civilians in this war is just horrible and this is true for both sides, Russians and Ukraianians. This war should have never started and end as soon as posssible on the negotiations table. Ukraine just needs to give up officially on areas it didn't control since about 2014. The Ukrainian regime is just playing on time by slowing things down by transforming every major city into an urban battlefield, by sacrificing its cities, infrastructure and civilian casualties for gaining time. We have to ask for what do they need that time, and the answer is: They just want to provoke an incident which might bring NATO into this war and start World War III, because militarily, they can't win.

Some here said that the Russian military looks incompetent and shows bad morale. Sure, they are not perfect, but they have here a war and task which is much bigger than anything e.g. the US army had to do in the last decades. And whenever the US army was in similar scenario, despite its superiour numbers and means, they had losses and caused civlian collateral damage. Its not even possible to prevent that, because urban siege warfare will inevitably cause civilian casualties and the Ukrainian regime don't just knows that, but calculates with it, to provoke a Western intervention.

From a purely military standpoint, the Ukrainian army is still standing because of two plugs:
- The urban siege warfare in major Eastern cities, which binds large portions of the Russian elite units, especially Mariupol and Kharkiv
- The main Ukrainian battle groups barely holding off the Don republics and Russian forces at the Donbas front

That's why the Russians hit the Eastern cities in the siege so hard, they don't have time, they don't want to give the Ukrainians the time. As soon as especially Mariupol being conquered, even if just largely, and the main units of this siege being freed and the threat in the back eliminated, we will see this massive pincer movement in the East, which will cut off the main Ukrainian forces. Then the main Ukrainian battlegroups, including elite units and nationalist battalions will route and they can't flee from the combined force of the quickly advancing Russian tank groups, the airforce in the sky and the Donbas elite units in their back. They will be completely annihilated in the process.

The Ukrainian government therefore just uses up its time and people, for what?
Either 3rd World War or a soon coming complete Ukrainian defeat. The Russians don't need to change anything, they just need to keep up the morale they have now and what I see is a slow but methodically acting steamroller, the classic Russian strategy - they did the same in all wars since World War I.

What this also means is that the Ukrainian Selenski regime has about 1-3 weeks before this pincer movement closes, at best, because the first spearheads already securing the Dnieper river, despite all those huge elite forces being still bound to the sieges of Mariupol and Kharkiv etc. Mariupol and Kharkiv are the last straws the Ukrainians are holding and the Russians need to use their whole arsenal to eliminate that threat for their big advance.

I heard the Ukrainians take negotiations more seriously now, I just hope that's true, they just should have taken peace and diplomacy more serious before, then this war would have never happened. Nobody wanted that war. Putin was just willing to start it under the given circumstances, because he had absolutely no political and peaceful option left, to safe his most basic interests in Ukraine. The sanctions would have lasted, and Ukraine planned to attack Donbas, while joining NATO and becoming weaponised. People can say Ukraine had the right to do so, from a strictly juridical standpoint, which always favours US interests, because its their system, maybe, but what does it help? Are these pro-Russian territories worth this war, or even a 3rd World War? Is that anti-Russian weaponising of the Ukraine worth it? Don't think so.

They just need to sit down and end this mess as soon as possible on the negotiations table, before it spirals out of control or even if not, before hundreds of thousands more die and Ukraine being reduced to rubble.
 
I don't know Dugin.
But why do you associate Riverman with extreme right?

I stopped reading his comments several pages ago.
I told him his discussions are pointless and a waist of time for me.

It's the real Rasputin of the Kremlin now:
https://independentaustralia.net/po...st-who-helped-convinced-putin-to-invade,16145

I don't want to label Riverman. I only see that he uses the same type of reasoning as party's like the Forum voor democratie.

Nothing personal Riverman plays on the ball not on the man (ad hominem). That's the oxygen of a forum.....
 
It is brutal to witness I just hope those civilians that want nothing but peace are able to be treated ok if their territory is seized I can't imagine the trauma and guilt some of those young soldiers will feel when they wise up...it's pure horror...they are the ones that suffer.
 
It is brutal to witness I just hope those civilians that want nothing but peace are able to be treated ok if their territory is seized I can't imagine the trauma and guilt some of those young soldiers will feel when they wise up...it's pure horror...they are the ones that suffer.

They all suffer horribly, soldiers and civilians, makes no difference. Its just too late to prevent these things from happen, but its not too late to stop it rather sooner than later. I'm sure a fair compromise could be made, if all sides are willing to take negotiations seriously. If Selenski proceeds with his "whatever the costs" strategy and now openly threatens all pro-Russian people with torture and death, he must brought to reason by his Western allies which built him up.

I'd say both Selenski and Putin need pressure from their surroundings to take negotations seriously. Both won't get everything they want. They just need to reconsider whether its all worth it and make a peace which is somehow, someway, acceptable for both sides.
 
What we hopefully can all agree with is that what happens to both soldiers and civilians in this war is just horrible and this is true for both sides, Russians and Ukraianians. This war should have never started and end as soon as posssible on the negotiations table. Ukraine just needs to give up officially on areas it didn't control since about 2014. The Ukrainian regime is just playing on time by slowing things down by transforming every major city into an urban battlefield, by sacrificing its cities, infrastructure and civilian casualties for gaining time. We have to ask for what do they need that time, and the answer is: They just want to provoke an incident which might bring NATO into this war and start World War III, because militarily, they can't win.

Some here said that the Russian military looks incompetent and shows bad morale. Sure, they are not perfect, but they have here a war and task which is much bigger than anything e.g. the US army had to do in the last decades. And whenever the US army was in similar scenario, despite its superiour numbers and means, they had losses and caused civlian collateral damage. Its not even possible to prevent that, because urban siege warfare will inevitably cause civilian casualties and the Ukrainian regime don't just knows that, but calculates with it, to provoke a Western intervention.

From a purely military standpoint, the Ukrainian army is still standing because of two plugs:
- The urban siege warfare in major Eastern cities, which binds large portions of the Russian elite units, especially Mariupol and Kharkiv
- The main Ukrainian battle groups barely holding off the Don republics and Russian forces at the Donbas front

That's why the Russians hit the Eastern cities in the siege so hard, they don't have time, they don't want to give the Ukrainians the time. As soon as especially Mariupol being conquered, even if just largely, and the main units of this siege being freed and the threat in the back eliminated, we will see this massive pincer movement in the East, which will cut off the main Ukrainian forces. Then the main Ukrainian battlegroups, including elite units and nationalist battalions will route and they can't flee from the combined force of the quickly advancing Russian tank groups, the airforce in the sky and the Donbas elite units in their back. They will be completely annihilated in the process.

The Ukrainian government therefore just uses up its time and people, for what?
Either 3rd World War or a soon coming complete Ukrainian defeat. The Russians don't need to change anything, they just need to keep up the morale they have now and what I see is a slow but methodically acting steamroller, the classic Russian strategy - they did the same in all wars since World War I.

What this also means is that the Ukrainian Selenski regime has about 1-3 weeks before this pincer movement closes, at best, because the first spearheads already securing the Dnieper river, despite all those huge elite forces being still bound to the sieges of Mariupol and Kharkiv etc. Mariupol and Kharkiv are the last straws the Ukrainians are holding and the Russians need to use their whole arsenal to eliminate that threat for their big advance.

I heard the Ukrainians take negotiations more seriously now, I just hope that's true, they just should have taken peace and diplomacy more serious before, then this war would have never happened. Nobody wanted that war. Putin was just willing to start it under the given circumstances, because he had absolutely no political and peaceful option left, to safe his most basic interests in Ukraine. The sanctions would have lasted, and Ukraine planned to attack Donbas, while joining NATO and becoming weaponised. People can say Ukraine had the right to do so, from a strictly juridical standpoint, which always favours US interests, because its their system, maybe, but what does it help? Are these pro-Russian territories worth this war, or even a 3rd World War? Is that anti-Russian weaponising of the Ukraine worth it? Don't think so.

They just need to sit down and end this mess as soon as possible on the negotiations table, before it spirals out of control or even if not, before hundreds of thousands more die and Ukraine being reduced to rubble.

Imo it's quit simple. It's first a Kremlin war not of the Russian people. The Russian soldiers are not motivated, sphere of influence or the urge to restore 'czaristic Russia' is a project of the Putin clique not something of average Ivan (at least nothing worth dying for I guess).

For the Ukrainians it's the reverse the people didn't ask for such a war, and are confronted with it, but they don't want to live under Putin's control. So flight or fight, gathered behind Zelinski. And of course they want not to give up their country, why should they.

When the Russian bring in more vacuum, cluster bombs or even nucleair bomb in war the slaughter and the cynical disrespect of the 'to be liberated' is even more evident. So in the end Zelenski is likely forced to give up (or gets killed). Anyhow such methods will only lead to more paria status of Putin's Russia. In all imaginable scenario's sooner or later Putin's Kremlin is in a loosing position. And that's the real danger....
 
What happens to the minority if there's a 60/40 split or a 55/45? Do you expel the Ukrainian speakers?


We have only second hand clues (later we 'll know more). But I heard Ukrainans after their Russian period (not a good one, BTW) imposed their language as an unique choice, BEFORE they admitted Russian too. Not sure of my sources. ATW as a TRUE and practising leftist (and NOT a bolchevic, not a woke, not a "caviar pseudo-socialist") I'm for partnership rather than for by force constraints. Maybe here Ukrainians had better excuses than Russians had, knowing the Russia attraction for expansion allover History, but ATW it was a mistake. Mistake which doesn't excuse an invasion.
I defend (lost back fight?) minoritory languages inFrance, so I know what I'm speaking about.
But in Ukraina, the cultural aspect is nothing compared to the diverse mineral & food ressources and strategic strongholds offered by Ukraina.
 
I would argue that the Left has not been lost to the populist wing in the US it is desperately trying to stay center, it had moved center right in my opinion during the Clinton years and its slowly having to move more towards the left of the Civil Rights era. The Dems thwarted their populist choice, Sanders, twice, the RNC on the other hand was hoping for Jeb Bush to win the nomination in 2016 but Trump wrecked him and now they have to placate their empowered populist base whereas the Dems don't. Sadly I don't see any viable candidates on either side and if Trump is still in the run I think he still has a good chance of demolishing the competition on the right, the guy just has crazy Charisma with his base...I just worry we will enter a Trump dynasty he'll definitely keep it in the family...If both parties were smart they should agree to passing a bill to limit the age of those seeking the presidency to 75:embarassed:

Well on thinking a little both parties are being pulled, Ted Cruz and his crazy ilk with the Tea Party movement on the right and on the Left you have AOC and her squad. Either way the fact that both parties are losing out to their populist wings is a sign they screwed up...there I go ranting again sorry!

Bernie Sanders honeymooned in Moscow when it was still the capitol of the Soviet Union. You should read some of his writings from that time. He himself was never connected to the actual planning of violence, but many of his friends were, all of it part of the history of the extreme left in this country. His "populist" base was formed of the idiotic young people indoctrinated on college campuses who are the activist base of the Democrat Party and have infiltrated the institutions of this country with their woke and gender bending ideology.

Fascism and Communism were always two sides of the same coin. Both are autocratic, and both deny people their basic human rights, most importantly the right to free speech. As I've said before, the only difference was whether the means of production were controlled by families or Board of Directors or faceless party hacks, the latter of which were almost always completely incompetent at their jobs. Hell, if in the latter half of the 20th century you still can't produce a decent car that should tell you all you need to know as to whether it's a good idea to put politicians in these kinds of positions.




Sorry, that was off topic, but I guess I needed a little rant of my own. :)
 
A massive attack by the Russian army destroyed the training ground with NATO instructors (VIDEO):

https://srbin.info/en/svet/masivan-napad-ruske-vojske-unistio-poligon-sa-instruktorima-nato-a-video/

The Russians will cut down all supply lines and safe spaces for the Ukrainians, step by step. What else, should they give them a safe space to organise themselves?

If NATO transgresses the borderline and gives Ukrainians safe space from which they can attack Russians, that's the next red line crossed. Both Selenski and Putin need to consider the diplomatic options, its simple as that, or we're heading for a predictable catastrophy. Selenski doesn't care for the Ukrainian people and its casualties, he just hates Putin and Russia. The Western alliance needs to make clear that they want him to take negotiations seriously, just as the Russian oligarchs and generals need to make Putin clear the same for him. If Selenski really thinks he can be the maniac who starts World War III, he need to be replaced or the West needs to let him go.
 
We have only second hand clues (later we 'll know more). But I heard Ukrainans after their Russian period (not a good one, BTW) imposed their language as an unique choice, BEFORE they admitted Russian too. Not sure of my sources. ATW as a TRUE and practising leftist (and NOT a bolchevic, not a woke, not a "caviar pseudo-socialist") I'm for partnership rather than for by force constraints. Maybe here Ukrainians had better excuses than Russians had, knowing the Russia attraction for expansion allover History, but ATW it was a mistake. Mistake which doesn't excuse an invasion.
I defend (lost back fight?) minoritory languages inFrance, so I know what I'm speaking about.
But in Ukraina, the cultural aspect is nothing compared to the diverse mineral & food ressources and strategic strongholds offered by Ukraina.

As you say, Paris did impose it's language too to the rest of the country.
But the Russians look for any excuse for invasion.
Once they use terms like denazification and genocide, you know enough.
 
The Russian military was not the only incompetent, so was the French military.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, if the French hadn't retreated around Paris, Hitler would never have reached Dunkerque.
It is because the conquest of France went so smooth that Hitler felt strong enhough to conquer Russia.

Another anecdote is that Churchill requested the French navy to join the British before capitulation.
But the French refused and the French navy was about to fall in the hands of Hitler.
In the end Churchil had no other option than to bombard the French navy ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-Kébir

Yes, I know. I would also submit that a lot of what happened in France was due to the fact that imo a majority of the French were Nazi sympathizers, and that includes the followers of Petain. Books and movies about the "French Resistance" just irritate me when any relatively objective analysis of the situation makes it clear that they were an infinitesimal percentage of the French population and almost all were Communists, which was not true in Italy to that extent.

Of course, there was also Italy with its Potemkin village of a military; antiquated tanks, World War I era artillery, no aircraft carriers, hopelessly overstretched in North Africa and the Near East etc. They knew they weren't ready, as they made clear in the Pact of Steel by setting a date in 1943 for the start of any major military campaigns. Add to all that the deep fissures in the country, with two separate military wings, one under our idiot King whose only saving grace was that he wasn't Mussolini, and the fascist one under Mussolini. All of which led to military defeat, a civil war, and invasion by the Germans, with the north a puppet state with Mussolini as titular head and the south under the King's forces helping the allies. The Partisans of Northern Italy were the Fifth Column of the Allies. What an unholy mess.

We could throw in the Hungarians, who were happy to set up their own Nazi puppet state, and the Latvians and Lithuanians who enthusiastically joined the Nazis when they arrived. Of course, Franco, the fascist dictator of Spain installed by Germany and Italy held on and died peacefully in his bed.

I could go on, but it's all too depressing. The only country to come out of it with its reputation untarnished was Britain, but their naivete about Hitler and his intentions nearly did them in.

As in the First World War it was the U.S. which had to rescue Europe, although had the Japanese not attacked Pearl Harbor I question whether they would have joined the European War. If Europe has had an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity it's because of that victory and the NATO alliance which protected them from Russia. That still stokes resentment here in those who care about U.S. history and what "The Greatest Generation" sacrificed when they're confronted by the anti-Americanism seemingly always simmering below the surface in countries like France, for example.
 
Bernie Sanders honeymooned in Moscow when it was still the capitol of the Soviet Union. You should read some of his writings from that time. He himself was never connected to the actual planning of violence, but many of his friends were, all of it part of the history of the extreme left in this country. His "populist" base was formed of the idiotic young people indoctrinated on college campuses who are the activist base of the Democrat Party and have infiltrated the institutions of this country with their woke and gender bending ideology.

Fascism and Communism were always two sides of the same coin. Both are autocratic, and both deny people their basic human rights, most importantly the right to free speech. As I've said before, the only difference was whether the means of production were controlled by families or Board of Directors or faceless party hacks, the latter of which were almost always completely incompetent at their jobs. Hell, if in the latter half of the 20th century you still can't produce a decent car that should tell you all you need to know as to whether it's a good idea to put politicians in these kinds of positions.




Sorry, that was off topic, but I guess I needed a little rant of my own. :)

Also,

in a post-Trump world, this Bernie Sanders 2015 sounds like a right-wing extremist full of racist hatred for wanting to respect the boarders of the country.


He changed his tune accordingly like a good little boy.
 
Russian nuclear arsenal is probably a Potemkin village:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap

"There is historical precedence that Russians have previously lied about the true extent and power of their nuke arsenal. There is also historical precedence that Pentagon has bought on on the Russian lies hook and sink, so even if Pentagon believes Russians, doesn't mean that Pentagon is right. During early days of Cold War there was this happening: missile gap. Russians claimed they had several hundred nukes. It was later found out that they had about 12 or something."
 
Well I don't want to get labeled as a Bernie supporter :D I just want to show that populism is the death of Democracy and the lesson should be for the politicians and oligarchs to recognize you have to take care of the little guy because if you don't sooner or later populism will take hold...
 

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