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Thread: Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    @Riverman mister rules of war....

    When will you face the fact that Putin is waging a war that stems from a totalitarian mind, where human lives don't count. That is very clear.

    First of all, by focusing the war entirely on terror targeting civilians, by deploying 'forbidden' (mister rules!) weapons' such as cluster and vacuum bombs on civilian targets. And through targeted actions to isolate people, they starve, deprived of the essential necessities of life, torture and rape them. And some are deported. Destination: unknown. That's against any rule! It's all to break people, not armies. Because he will not break the army, that was clear in the first weeks. That is simply exercising terror against civilians and that violates all the rules of 'regular warfare'.

    Secondly, also with regard to its own troops, the army was poorly or unprepared. And in fact, a Russian soldier's life doesn't count. dead Russian soldiers are left for dead. What that does to the moral of the soldiers is terrible. Your life is less worth than that of a dog..... Wagner Group is deployed now. Officially it doesn't even exist and mister rules they are allowed to break all the rules. They're just slayers.

    And then we see Lavrov, foreign minister, with a straight face claiming that this is all fake news, set up by the West etc. Cruel cynic at its best. But no, according to Riverman, that's all imaginary. Putin and his Kremlin clique are very respectable. When will you open your eyes Riverman!.
    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    @Riverman mister rules of war....
    And he got them wrong because civilian self-defence against invasion is permitted under the laws of war.

    Wearing an armband is enough.
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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    When Ukraine released hard core criminals from jail and you recruit foreign Nazis and put them in your army what do you expect to happen. Below is an example of just the regular US army crimes.
    The Mỹ Lai massacre was the mass murder of unarmed South Vietnamese civilians by United States troops in Sơn Tịnh District, South Vietnam, on March 16th, 1968 during the Vietnam War. They were
    UNARMED and were not ambushing Americans. Between 347 and 504 unarmed people were killed by U.S. Army soldiers. Mỹ Lai massacre victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated, as were female girls as young as 12. Twenty-six soldiers were charged with criminal offenses, but only Lieutenant William Calley Jr., a platoon leader in C Company, was convicted. Found guilty of murdering 22 villagers, he was originally given a life sentence but served three-and-a-half years under house arrest never went to prison, and had his sentence then commuted. The US refuses to join so no American can ever be tried for a war crime. The list is endless for all the war crimes by the United States in Afghanistan. Iraq, Lybia, Syria, and Pakistan, but the US will NEVER allow any American to be tried for a war crime. The American press will not tell the truth about how the US exempts itself from war crime allegations and trials. This has added to the image of the United States is seen as arrogant and hypocritical.

    https://www.heritage.org/report/the-us-should-not-join-the-international-criminal-court
    The U.S. Should Not Join the International Criminal Court

    August 18, 2009 44 min read Download Report



    Suum cuique---Rubiconem suum


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    @Riverman

    I repeat, if a foreign invader comes you are entitled to defend your home and family, even with lethal force, with or without a uniform on.
    I posted the image of an Ukrainian fighter which wears private clothing which looks like a uniform, but isn't necessarily one, and presented it as legal. The main thing about him was that he wore an armlet, so he was recognisable. Remind you, not the uniform is key, because like I have written before, there might not be enough for the fighters to wear, on both sides, but that they are recognisable as combatants, by, e.g. special hats or armlets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And he got them wrong because civilian self-defence against invasion is permitted under the laws of war.
    Wearing an armband is enough.
    That's exactly what I said! Nothing else. As soon as someone being recognisable as combatant and fights, he no longer is a civilian! That's key.

    Traces here of the invading German Army in 1914 and the un-uniformed Belgian franc tireurs executed by the invaders because they opposed the Germans or the French and other Resistance groups, without uniforms, in WW2.
    You have to differentiate, because to begin with, the British, Americans and Russians did execute a lot of Germans soldiers, they also tortured them, so don't come with German only. Even more, irregular fighters which wore no uniform and no other signal, or the uniform of hte enemy, were usually tortured and shot by the allies - as spies and terrorists. All sides did it.
    But if looking at what would be a normal situation:
    - the fighters need to recognisable. Like if they wore armlets and stayed in military units, they would irregular forces, like partisans.
    - if they were not recognisable and switched regularly between civilan status and combatants, they are spies/terrorists, not protected by the law.

    Fighters of the French Resistance wearing armlets:
    https://miro.medium.com/max/640/0*63lX5Ac5pddVkXYK.jpg

    Polish underground army, wearing armlets:
    https://ipn.gov.pl/dokumenty/zalaczniki/2/2-35717_g.png


    These were combatants, its enough to wear an armlet. Most Ukrainian fighters in civilian clothes wear such armlets (yellow or blue mostly) too.

    If they moved around in civilian clothes, non-recognisable, and placed bombs or made assasinations, it was terrorism. The same applied to "Werwolf" German resistance fighters, if they did the same, or any false flag operating units, which being executed as spies and terrorists as well. The Soviets murdered many innocent Germans and youths which being only "suspected" to be Werwolf members, even if they were none or never became active:
    In the Soviet occupation zone, thousands of youths were arrested as "Werwolves".[56][57] Evidently, arrests were arbitrary and in part based on denunciations.[56] The arrested boys were either executed or interned in NKVD special camps.[56] On 22 June 1945, Deputy Commissar of the NKVD Ivan Serov reported to the head of the NKVD Lavrentiy Beria the arrest of "more than 600" alleged Werwolf members,[58] mostly aged 15 to 17 years.[59] The report, though referring to incidents where Soviet units came under fire from the woods,[58] asserts that most of the arrested had not been involved in any action against the Soviets, which Serov explained with interrogation results allegedly showing that the boys had been "waiting" for the right moment and in the meantime focused on attracting new members.[59] In October 1945, Beria reported to Joseph Stalin the "liquidation" of 359 alleged Werwolf groups.[56] Of those, 92 groups with 1,192 members were "liquidated" in Saxony alone.[56] On 5 August 1946, Soviet minister for internal affairs Sergei Nikiforovich Kruglov reported that in the Soviet occupation zone, 332 "terrorist diversion groups and underground organizations" had been disclosed and "liquidated".[56] A total of about 10,000 youths were interned in NKVD special camps, half of whom did not return.[57] Parents as well as the East German administration and political parties, installed by the Soviets, were denied any information on the whereabouts of the arrested youths.[56] The Red Army's torching of Demmin, which resulted in the suicide of hundreds of people, was blamed on alleged preceding Werwolf activities by the East German regime.[60]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

    Therefore the measures against "resistance" were hard from all sides. But a crucial differentiation is how people attack: Are they recognisable as combatants and how are they switching between "civilian non-combatant status" and "military resistance with combatant status" - regardless of how they are being clothed.

    But the incidence with the car with people in civilian clothing driving by and throwing a Molotov cocktail is clearly terrorism.

    If the same would have happened to allies in Germany, or to Americans in Vietnam, Iraq or elsewhere, or to Israelis in Palestine etc., it would be called that way for sure. Imagine Iraqis doing that, throwing a Molotov cocktail at Americans while driving by.

    Rules and law should apply to all the same way. Otherwise they are arbitrary, which is a big problem for the USA by now, and one important reason their "war against Russia" being not supported by the majority of the world. Because everybody knows what the Americans did and might do in the future. Its just hypocrisy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    @Riverman mister rules of war....

    When will you face the fact that Putin is waging a war that stems from a totalitarian mind, where human lives don't count. That is very clear.

    First of all, by focusing the war entirely on terror targeting civilians, by deploying 'forbidden' (mister rules!) weapons' such as cluster and vacuum bombs on civilian targets. And through targeted actions to isolate people, they starve, deprived of the essential necessities of life, torture and rape them. And some are deported. Destination: unknown. That's against any rule! It's all to break people, not armies. Because he will not break the army, that was clear in the first weeks. That is simply exercising terror against civilians and that violates all the rules of 'regular warfare'.

    Secondly, also with regard to its own troops, the army was poorly or unprepared. And in fact, a Russian soldier's life doesn't count. dead Russian soldiers are left for dead. What that does to the moral of the soldiers is terrible. Your life is less worth than that of a dog..... Wagner Group is deployed now. Officially it doesn't even exist and mister rules they are allowed to break all the rules. They're just slayers.

    And then we see Lavrov, foreign minister, with a straight face claiming that this is all fake news, set up by the West etc. Cruel cynic at its best. But no, according to Riverman, that's all imaginary. Putin and his Kremlin clique are very respectable. When will you open your eyes Riverman!.
    I don't say the invasion was right or what the Russians do is all fine, I only point to unfair reporting and what the Ukrainians do to balance things out, because apparently, nobody else cares about the truth for both sides and how peace can be achieved. Diplomatically, the fault is almost entirely on Ukraine, but that doesn't justify all measures, obviously.

    As for your claim, you repeat, and which is untrue: In Mariupol the target of the military operation are nationalist militias, largely from West Ukraine and mercenaries, operating in the thousands between the civilian structures and inhabitants of the city. This is the tragedy, that a couple of thousands of fighters make the Russian use such measures against the whole city, because there is no alternative. These fighters being equipped with state of the art sniper equipment, anti-tank and anti-aircraft arms, which leaves the only option of decimating them by artillery, without risking way more losses for the conquerors of the city.

    It is a tragedy, but its not about targeting the civilians. These being just in between the two fighting parties, Ukrainian nationalist militias and Russian allies (mostly Donbas units and Chechens as far as I heard), which are, on the infantry level, worse equipped.

    No doubt, the whole war is a preventable tragedy, and both sides contributed to the current situation, to this level of escalation.

    We need peace and a diplomatic solution and therefore I repeat once more: Both sides to the negotiations table, pressure on both sides for taking peace and diplomacy seriously. And not nationalist-imperalist agendas, which both sides (Putin regime and Selenski regime/Biden regime) clearly display.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And he got them wrong because civilian self-defence against invasion is permitted under the laws of war.
    Wearing an armband is enough.
    Criminals (enemy combatant uniform-have you seen the banned videos of Azov dressed as woman -wig and clothing to escape when they are about to get captured)can make up their own rules, even there is fear of poor people(no oligarchs) being exploited as the alleged example below shows.

    For example, Ukrainian war refugees safety in Europe(Poland)? A breakdown in society has shown us over the last couple of weeks the violent nature+ filthy language used in televised awards ceremony. Even on this thread, lewd derogatory comments directed at members.

    An alleged case in Poland involving 19 year old.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...p-shelter.html

    Man, 49, arrested in Poland over 'rape of 19-year-old refugee he promised to help and shelter' after she fled war-torn Ukraine as Polish border guard says close to 1.6 million refugees have now crossed into the EU country


    • The 49-year-old suspect could face up to 12 years in prison for the 'brutal crime'
    • Concerns are growing on how to protect the most vulnerable refugees from being targeted by human traffickers or becoming victims to other exploitation
    • At Poland's Medyka border, a man was offering help only to women and children

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    @ Riverman

    These fighters being equipped with state of the art sniper equipment, anti-tank and anti-aircraft arms, which leaves the only option of decimating them by artillery, without risking way more losses for the conquerors of the city.
    This is the core. Because this means that the population is being sacrificed. Because one could predict in advance that this would turn into a city war. And since the end justifies the means, the Kremlin just grabs forbidden bombs (which cause a lot of victims), emaciation, massacre, rape, in short, as AH called "ausradieren". That is the totalitarian face.


    Indeed 'the only option', isn't it? Does the Kremlin care about the people. No, no and again no. All they care about is power, human dignity no longer plays a role in their deliberations (if it ever did).


    And those calls for peace are free. Tell me to what pressure the Kremlin is sensitive....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    @ Riverman



    This is the core. Because this means that the population is being sacrificed. Because one could predict in advance that this would turn into a city war. And since the end justifies the means, the Kremlin just grabs forbidden bombs (which cause a lot of victims), emaciation, massacre, rape, in short, as AH called "ausradieren". That is the totalitarian face.


    Indeed 'the only option', isn't it? Does the Kremlin care about the people. No, no and again no. All they care about is power, human dignity no longer plays a role in their deliberations (if it ever did).


    And those calls for peace are free. Tell me to what pressure the Kremlin is sensitive....

    Riverman is drunk on his own verbosity.

    He believes every lie spewed out by the Kremlin which is quite an indigestible pile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    @ Riverman



    This is the core. Because this means that the population is being sacrificed. Because one could predict in advance that this would turn into a city war. And since the end justifies the means, the Kremlin just grabs forbidden bombs (which cause a lot of victims), emaciation, massacre, rape, in short, as AH called "ausradieren". That is the totalitarian face.


    Indeed 'the only option', isn't it? Does the Kremlin care about the people. No, no and again no. All they care about is power, human dignity no longer plays a role in their deliberations (if it ever did).
    If you would watch what the Russian side does, they help in Mariupol, they definitely do. Its just in the hard fought districts, in which the fighting is the most difficult, that little can be done. And the Ukrainian forces, the nationalist militias, shot and hurt people there deliberately, at close distance, going by some reports. This means its not like the Russian side is more brutal, its just a brutal house to house fight. As soon as a district being liberated by the Russians, the inhabitants come out and get help.
    The Ukrainian, even less the US side, cares no more for the people there, its just a fighting ground, that's the truth. It's a war, which means if we don't want scene like that, we need to stop the war, instead of blaming forces for what usually happens in such a war.

    And those calls for peace are free. Tell me to what pressure the Kremlin is sensitive....
    At this point its very clear that everything is in the hands of the Selenski regime and the USA in the background. Russia made, before the war, during the war and up to this point, reasonable offers, all the time. Its the Ukrainians which are primarily to blame for refusing any peace deal which would be just fair considering all facts. Obviously if Russia would, at all costs, demand all of Eastern Ukraine up to the Dnepr and a new pro-Russian government in Kiev, this would be solely Russias fault, if the war goes on. But what I heard isn't like that, its the Ukrainians which refuse any compromise and stay 100 percent confrontational. People should have realised that by now, because this was the cause for this war to begin with and they didn't move one inch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Riverman is drunk on his own verbosity.

    He believes every lie spewed out by the Kremlin which is quite an indigestible pile.
    What a nonsense, I'm more objective than most here, which are just on the anti-Russian trip. I never white-washed Putin and Russia to the point of making them the heros and good guys, but to give them all the blame and make them caricature-like villains, whereas the Ukrainians being described as "democratic freedom fighters and the good, nice guys" is beyond ridiculous and absolutely inacceptable, especially considering what the West Ukrainians/Selenski regime did over time and in this war.

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    If anyone cares to look into Ukraine's history, here's a book on it. The latest date on the timeline is 2015, when this war had already started (though Russia has never declared a war and refuses to admit there is one):

    https://shron3.chtyvo.org.ua/Plokhii...raine_anhl.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    If you would watch what the Russian side does, they help in Mariupol, they definitely do.
    After this first sentence I pass sorry Riverman.

    This is grotesque. You have lost touch with the raw, bitter reality here. I stop here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    After this first sentence I pass sorry Riverman.

    This is grotesque. You have lost touch with the raw, bitter reality here. I stop here...
    I wrote you have to distinguish between battleground and areas the Russians already control. Where they control/have access to, the Russians help. There is a lot of evidence for this and no evidence for the Russians to deliberately targeting civilians. That's fake. They target the Ukrainian nationalist militias in the city, in the districts they still control. This is hard enough for the residents from these areas being cut off, because of the fighting. Obviously the Russians can't allow completely free access to those districts, because this could result in the fighters getting supply, reinforcements or getting out. They should allow humanitarian aid, under military control, as to what gets in and out, and humanitarian corridors. For the latter the Russians and Ukrainians accuse each other for not allowing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I wrote you have to distinguish between battleground and areas the Russians already control. Where they control/have access to, the Russians help. There is a lot of evidence for this and no evidence for the Russians to deliberately targeting civilians. That's fake. They target the Ukrainian nationalist militias in the city, in the districts they still control. This is hard enough for the residents from these areas being cut off, because of the fighting. Obviously the Russians can't allow completely free access to those districts, because this could result in the fighters getting supply, reinforcements or getting out. They should allow humanitarian aid, under military control, as to what gets in and out, and humanitarian corridors. For the latter the Russians and Ukrainians accuse each other for not allowing it.
    How do you know?

    Do you get your fake news from Russian news media, sorry, propaganda media.

    The Kremlin has a long history of lies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    After this first sentence I pass sorry Riverman.

    This is grotesque. You have lost touch with the raw, bitter reality here. I stop here...
    I can't make up my mind if Riverman is foolishly naive or hopelessly pro-Putin, or pro-any dictator.

    I suspect the latter.

    He spams and spams as if he has been briefed in the Kremlin.
    It's disgusting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    How do you know?

    Do you get your fake news from Russian news media, sorry, propaganda media.

    The Kremlin has a long history of lies.
    The Russian side has camera teams in Mariupol, other international media being there as well. They filmed and made interviews. None of the locals was happy about the situation, some even described how relatives died and how dire their situation is or was. But its all because of the ongoing fights with the Ukrainian nationalists in the city. To describe it as a war against the civilian population is just fake propaganda. The Russians could care more, yes, and the war as such is horrible, but there is no need to invent a "genocidal" narrative, other than causing a propaganda war.
    The Western media selectively report only the Ukrainian propaganda news, if the Russian side reports atrocities or films whitnesses, they being not even checked, let alone reported. Many of the "news" the Western media publish come direct from the CIA and the SBU. I listen to both sides and neutral reports from e.g. Indian news agencies. That's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Russian side has camera teams in Mariupol, other international media being there as well. They filmed and made interviews. None of the locals was happy about the situation, some even described how relatives died and how dire their situation is or was. But its all because of the ongoing fights with the Ukrainian nationalists in the city. To describe it as a war against the civilian population is just fake propaganda. The Russians could care more, yes, and the war as such is horrible, but there is no need to invent a "genocidal" narrative, other than causing a propaganda war.
    The Western media selectively report only the Ukrainian propaganda news, if the Russian side reports atrocities or films whitnesses, they being not even checked, let alone reported. Many of the "news" the Western media publish come direct from the CIA and the SBU. I listen to both sides and neutral reports from e.g. Indian news agencies. That's all.

    More fake news from the Kremlin.

    Shall I buy you a ticket so you can live in Russia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Russian side has camera teams in Mariupol, other international media being there as well. They filmed and made interviews. None of the locals was happy about the situation, some even described how relatives died and how dire their situation is or was. But its all because of the ongoing fights with the Ukrainian nationalists in the city. To describe it as a war against the civilian population is just fake propaganda. The Russians could care more, yes, and the war as such is horrible, but there is no need to invent a "genocidal" narrative, other than causing a propaganda war.
    The Western media selectively report only the Ukrainian propaganda news, if the Russian side reports atrocities or films whitnesses, they being not even checked, let alone reported. Many of the "news" the Western media publish come direct from the CIA and the SBU. I listen to both sides and neutral reports from e.g. Indian news agencies. That's all.
    With bleeps when someone talks about "war"? And the spin is of course it's due to the Ukrainian nationalist....that's what they like to hear.Even a blanco paper on a square in a Russian city means arrest....and up to 15 years of prison. The Kremlin has control about the media... You underestimate totally the totalitarian factor.

    'Objectivity' is obsolete when you can't see or qualify the difference between a totalitarian system like Putin's Russia now and the free media and world like in the most of Europe and US. That's why you've become an apologist for autocrats like Orban and Putin... too bad.
    Last edited by Northener; 05-04-22 at 18:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    More fake news from the Kremlin.
    Just using censorship and labels to create fake narratives is so much easier, isn't it? Lucky that your narrative being supported by Big Money and Big Tech. Otherwise things would look very different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    ...autocrats likes Orban...
    Orban is no autocrat and he is one of the few independent politicians in Europe which cares for his people and Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    With bleeps when someone talks about "war"? And the spin is of course it's due to the Ukrainian nationalist....that's what they like to hear.Even a blanco paper on a square in a Russian means arrest....and up to 15 years of prison.The Kremlin has control about the media... You underestimate totally the totalitarian factor.

    'Objectivity' is obsolete when you can't see or qualify the difference between a totalitarian system like Putin's Russia now and the free media and world like in the most or Europe and US. That's why you've become an apologist for autocrats likes Orban and Putin... too bad.
    Riverman is a "useful idiot" for the Russian cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Just using censorship and labels to create fake narratives is so much easier, isn't it? Lucky that your narrative being supported by Big Money and Big Tech. Otherwise things would look very different.
    Your sick narrative is being controlled by the Kremlin who won't even call the war in Ukraine a "war".

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    The Russians are world champions when it comes to censorship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Riverman is a "useful idiot" for the Russian cause.
    I don't support Putin. but calling other eupedia members idiots is totally unacceptable. Cut it out, because all of this righteous indignation crap doesn't suspend the rules.

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    Russia justifies genocide: state publication explains why Ukraine and Ukrainians must be destroyed

    Russian state-owned propaganda outlet RIA published the new programmatic article with the title "What Russia must do with Ukraine". The article reveals a detailed plan for a genocide, starting from full elimination of Ukrainian state.
    1) it calls almost every Ukrainian a Nazi who deserves death. "Nazis who took weapons, must be killed in numbers as much as possible... Not just the elites, the most of the people are guilty, they are passive Nazis, Nazi enablers. They supported these elites and must be punished".
    2) It foresees tyrannic approach to culture. "Further denacification of the mass of the population is to be reached through ideological repression (oppression) of Nazi ideas and through harsh censorship: not only in politics, but in culture and education areas".
    3) it foresees economic and political destruction of Ukraine: "Ukraine must pay for its guilt towards Russia. It must be treated as an enemy, and therefore may develop only in dependency to Russia. No "Marshall plan" may happen. No "neutrality" both ideological or practical".
    4) A tyrannical future emerges: "Personnel providing denazification in new denazified republics (plural! - NB) cannot act on another way but only with direct military-police and management support from Russia. Denazification must be a Deukrainisation".
    5) Ukraine is the enemy: "The history has proven: Ukraine may not exist as a national state. Any attempt to create it leads to Nazism. Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construct... De-banderisation is not enough... Denazification of Ukraine must be De-Europeazation of it".
    6) Deliberate targeting of civilians: "The Bandera-elites must be liquidated, they cannot be re-educated. The social "swamp" who supported them must experience terror of war and learn the lesson, and pay for its guilt".

  25. #1850
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I don't support Putin. but calling other eupedia members idiots is totally unacceptable. Cut it out, because all of this righteous indignation crap doesn't suspend the rules.
    Here are some forum rules for all of you to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycernius View Post
    Please note that it is against forum rules to openly attack another member on Eupedia. You can call an arguement stupid, dumb or idiotic, but not the actual member making it. I know that in the heat of discussion and debate that you may well want to call the other an idiot, I have on many an occassion, but it is best to sit back, take a deep breath and start again. You can call people who are not members idiots, fools or whatever, but not the actual member.
    Do not feed the trolls.
    Thank you.
    FYI- Banned members are no longer members. T-rolls are ultimately banned, so you can call them idiots afterwards.

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