Politics Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

[Tomenable]

^^^
I'm talking about this map:

People in South-East Ukraine were voting for Pro-Russian politicians to prevent Russian invasion.

Because they were afraid of the possibility Russian invasion (and they were right).

But there is no Pro-Russian sentiment there at all, as can be seen in current events.

 

[Tomenable]

But there is a genuine pro-Russian sentiment in some regions, especially Donbas and Crimea.

Yes but Crimea is the only region which is (and has been) actually majority ethnic Russian according to censuses.

As for Donbas, I don't know who those "separatists" actually were in 2014. Maybe they came from Russia Proper.

 

[Northener]

Yes Riverman why does Austria still exist? Sovereignty is so overrated.....
The elite is corrupt, see recently:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58856796
the broom has to go through it.
And after all they are Germans who partly not know yet they are Germans but that's a matter of time. They look like a German, they talk like a German...so they are Germans. Vienna is a key part in Germanic civilization.
Anschluss with Germany is inevitable.

Doesn't it Riverman??????

 

[Tomenable]

For Austrians (or German Austrians) it became comfortable after WW2 to disassociate themselves from Germany, because everyone links the Nazis with Germany and they forget about Austria. While in fact Austria is just as guilty for crimes of the Third Reich, as Germany.


So the Third Reich's defeat in WW2 surely strengthened a separate Austrian identity.

 

[Northener]

For Austrians (or German Austrians) it became comfortable after WW2 to disassociate themselves from Germany, because everyone links the Nazis with Germany and they forget about Austria. While in fact Austria is just as guilty for crimes of the Third Reich, as Germany.


So the Third Reich's defeat in WW2 surely strengthened a separate Austrian identity.

All false Tomenable they were German then and now.... so sovereignty what a joke

 

[Malaparte]

That link doesn't work.

Apologies. I re-linked the article. For those unfamiliar with Kennan, he is credited with the "containment" strategy against the USSR, but his views evolved considerably over the years. Notably, he was an early advocate of German reunification (by early, I mean even before 1950), mainly because he did not confuse restoring a balance of power in Europe with removing power from Europe, i.e., neutering Europe.

Kennan described the 1990s expansion of NATO eastward as a "fateful error."

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/05/opinion/a-fateful-error.html

 

[Malaparte]

For an overview of Kennan, a complicated figure, see ==
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/11/14/getting-real

 

[Angela]

I agree with much of what you wrote, but the highlighted statement shows a complete misunderstanding of how this worked in American. The Woke nonsense started on college or university campuses, yes, promulgated by Marxist leaning professors of the humanities and first taken up by POC, people of color there through affirmative action admissions, i.e. AOC and other members of the "Squad", who, having difficulty with the curricula, often remain for five and six years, and are subsidized by the government. It then spread to the larger part of the student body. They intimidated the administration and other professors to go along with their demands. I watched it all unfold; the classics banned, the teaching of history bastardized, professors who spoke up fired or "cancelled". Those who spoke up about it, including Razib Khan, and people on the right, were told it was limited to the colleges and was just post adolescent stupidity. Instead, it spread from the campuses with graduating students who worked for the "New Left", including in elementary and secondary schools. The BLM movement both partly grew out of it and fueled it. The trans mania was another outgrowth of it, destroying women's sports when so many of us fought to get our daughters equal access for federal funds for girls' teams. Now we're at the point twelve year olds can proclaim a sexual "identity" at odds with their genitalia and chromosomes being given drugs to stop puberty, and girls having their breasts lopped off.

This is no chimera. People have been "cancelled"; their livelihoods affected, and as per the above, their bodies irreparably damaged.

The corporations were among the last to be affected, certainly after the education system and government organs and the media. Have Europeans not noticed the bizarre output from Hollywood? The corporations responded as they have always done: they caved in terms of messaging, i.e. ads, and they paid "hush money" to these organizations, like BLM, as they had paid "hush money" to Jesse Jackson and all the other hucksters agitating in the name of equality but just seeking to line their pockets.

Let me clarify that. I agree with some of what you said about why certain people on the right and the left have taken certain positions.

I completely disagree with your take on Ukraine, the causes etc., and your militant anti-U.S. and anti-NATO stance. I will no longer respond to your posts and I don't understand why we have all been engaging with you. The fellow travelers like the John Reeds and Lillian Hellman's of the U.S. refused to acknowledge the truth about the Soviet Union even after it fell and all the filth came pouring out from their own archives.

There is nothing to be gained by discussions with ideologues and fellow travelers because they are immune not only to reason but to the evidence of their own eyes.

 

[Malaparte]

The extreme right is very much split on the issue, as you can see in the support of the Ukrainian resistance by some of the most extreme groups we still have in Europe. By now most of the extreme right is actually on the Ukrainian side. Its rather the populist right, which got more support from Putin, which was in favour of his Russia, but even that being no more, at least not as unified as it probably was before the invasion.

The left is not necessarily the most "extreme left", but those which still stand to the classical European left positions, being more interested in social justice and the control of the capital and big corporations, the prevention of violence, than brainwashing the population with identity politics while keeping them as obedient sheeple for the "elites". Much of the "left" in Europe is now nothing more than a copy of the American crap which spills over from the other side of the Atlantic. They care more for identity politics and the next big thing the US media and think tanks push forward than their old ideals and promises to the people ("working class").
This is not about being more or less extreme, on the left, but about the focus, like "traditional left" (social politics, strong state, focus on human needs, control of the big corporations and capital, anti-war and peace orientation) vs. "woke left" (identity politics, anti-male and anti-white, ecological and anti-anthropocentric ideas, social engineering, totalitarian state and surveillance, cooperation with the big capital, more likely to be pro-war if it suits them).

There is a naive tendency among anti-globalist & nationalist elements to imagine that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend." However, Putin is clearly no friend of nationalist parties within Russia, and I expect he will root-out and eradicate the most resolute & noble Ukrainian nationalists, at least in the east. Sad but true.

But viewed objectively, as a man, Putin towers above his contemporaries in the West. His courage, his steady patience (if the current crisis goes back to 2008, he waited nearly 15 years to make his move), his mastery of the issues, his practice of the martial arts. In Putin, the Davos crowd has met a formidable adversary.

As for developments in the West, I expect the traditional left (or what remains of it) and the populist right will eventually ally in opposition to what have become the nakedly tyrannical power moves of the globalists. At least in America, the common people simply do not believe the propaganda anymore, not one iota, and they quietly seethe.

 

[Malaparte]

If this report is true, Poland & Bulgaria have lost all sense . . . . Supplying Ukraine with MIG-29s? Combat sorties from Poland?

https://southfront.org/nato-countries-join-war-in-ukraine/

Looks like they came to their senses. This is a positive development === https://news.antiwar.com/2022/03/01/eu-plans-to-send-fighter-jets-to-ukraine-fall-apart/

 

[EV13SON]

There is a naive tendency among anti-globalist & nationalist elements to imagine that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend." However, Putin is clearly no friend of nationalist parties within Russia, and I expect he will root-out and eradicate the most resolute & noble Ukrainian nationalists, at least in the east. Sad but true.

But viewed objectively, as a man, Putin towers above his contemporaries in the West. His courage, his steady patience (if the current crisis goes back to 2008, he waited nearly 15 years to make his move), his mastery of the issues, his practice of the martial arts. In Putin, the Davos crowd has met a formidable adversary.

As for developments in the West, I expect the traditional left (or what remains of it) and the populist right will eventually ally in opposition to what have become the nakedly tyrannical power moves of the globalists. At least in America, the common people simply do not believe the propaganda anymore, not one iota, and they quietly seethe.

I'm all for steering the ship towards a capitalistic system that reigns in the monopolizations and concentrations of wealth in the hands of a few...I think the governments role should be to reign in these extremes and provide a healthy system. Unfortunately you need incorrupt individuals in government and good luck there needs to be complete transparency of money in politics and our judicial system is also a joke when it comes to holding the wealthy accountable... I would consider myself more libertarian and libertine in nature but I'm disgusted with how the right in our country gives so much cord to Racist and Christian Fundamentalist...I don't see any Rational leaders left on the Right they all keep feeding the monsters on the right...both parties are corrupt how do you attract any rational person to either camp? I did not vote for either Democrat or Republican in 2016 and chose a third option sometimes I wish people would do the same...stop being married to one party at all cost...

 

[Northener]

There is a naive tendency among anti-globalist & nationalist elements to imagine that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend." However, Putin is clearly no friend of nationalist parties within Russia, and I expect he will root-out and eradicate the most resolute & noble Ukrainian nationalists, at least in the east. Sad but true.

But viewed objectively, as a man, Putin towers above his contemporaries in the West. His courage, his steady patience (if the current crisis goes back to 2008, he waited nearly 15 years to make his move), his mastery of the issues, his practice of the martial arts. In Putin, the Davos crowd has met a formidable adversary.

As for developments in the West, I expect the traditional left (or what remains of it) and the populist right will eventually ally in opposition to what have become the nakedly tyrannical power moves of the globalists. At least in America, the common people simply do not believe the propaganda anymore, not one iota, and they quietly seethe.

I see you don't really know Europe, you are underestimating some factors, may be Putin wil capture the Ukraine sooner or later. Nevertheless with a population that is very anti the occupation even 150.000 soldiers are by long not enough to occupy the Ukraine in the long run. In meantime Russia will be bankrupt.

The people in the West have seen what the fifth column of the authoritarian populist have said in supporting Putin, also in the attack on the Ukraine. People don't like that and so in the new cold war these populist will be more and more unmasked as what they are the underminers of liberal democracy.

The moderate ones, with support of the common people, are the ones who will defend Europe against tyranny.

Je maintiendrai!

 

[Northener]

Baudet the extreme right wing defender of Putin.

Public Reactions to Ukraine debate: "Baudet is a clown who denies his country"

https://www.ad.nl/opinie/reacties-o...een-clown-die-zijn-land-verloochent~adf29527/

 

[real expert]

Its funny when safe space bunnies who never lived under communism defend war crimes on inocent civilians, as if Russian soldiers have any right to be in Ukraine.

Notice that in my post I did not call anyone by name, but the fascist clearly know who they are.
Riverman if you were from Czech republic you would understand, but you're from Austria. No one who faced communism wants to go back to that shithole system, not with fascist tendencies added to it.

It's clear that Poland, the Czech Republic, the Baltic countries, and other former eastern bloc states, don't want to live under the Russian Regime. Poles and other Eastern Europeans have a lot of reasons for disliking Russia (as a country). And Russia and Albania have “frozen” and bad relations, because of Russian politics in Balkan. With that being said, the situation in Ukraine is a bit different since the country is divided, roughly half of Ukrainians identify with Russia and the other half want nothing to do with Russia and identify with the West. Certainly, Ukraine has the right to exist, thus the Russian invasion isn't really justifiable.


Anyway, keep in mind, we're dealing with Propaganda from both sides, from Russia and Ukraine. According to Dail Mail, the Russian state-owned media outlet RT will no longer be available on Sky TV, Facebook, YouTube blocked access and channels of RT, thus 'Putin's propaganda machine' would be 'severely restricted'. So, Western people won't be overexposed to Russian propaganda. Right now we can't really know what's going on in Ukraine. Our media isn't neutral to inform us entirely with objective pieces of information. Pro Ukrainian and pro-Russian separatist groups have been in conflict for about eight years in the Donbas region. There have been human rights abuses on both sides. If we want to see the whole picture, understand cause and effect, we should try not to go by our emotions and be one-sided here, (although it's difficult when you see all the suffering civilians). Therefore, we have to look at the concerns and security interests of the Kremlin, whether the NATO/West views the security concerns of Russia warrant or not, is another story.


From the Guardian.

Speaking at the Munich Security Conference, Stoltenberg said: “If the Kremlin’s aim is to have less Nato on its borders, it will only get more Nato.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...sion?page=with:block-6210bcdc8f086f7273b88f13

That's an arrogant, and provocative reaction from the secretary general of NATO. Putin said, that his country doesn't want Ukraine to become a place for US missile bases. NATO should've taken Russia seriously.


Furthermore, it's not helpful to blindly blast people who want an objective analysis of this Ukraine war to be pro-Russian shills or trolls who defend the invasion. While Russia is responsible for the invasion, there is however no denying that the West/Nato does bear part of the blame for this crisis.



And remember, "The first casualty of war is truth."

 

[Archetype0ne]

I really don't want to argue politics on Eupedia. Hence the humanitarian comments before is all that I will leave.

But be not mistaken, if you think this is about some security concerns for the Russia Federation, and not a fear of a North/South Korea style divergence in quality of life between Ukrainian citizens and Russian citizens endangering the Russian oligarchs then you have barely scratched the surface, in a not so shallow pond.

130 Million Russians, by number the most numerous people in Europe(albeit some of them fall in Asia). The Russian people are here to stay and be relevant no matter what government represents them. The ones feeling the heat are the oligarchs and autocrats.

One just had to see the progress Ukraine made in infrastructure since 2014 to see what the real concern is and why their cities are being razed to the ground.

Also you are misquoting Stoltenberg... I heard the speech live. You better read the whole paragraph and catch the context. He was saying if by threatening to invade Ukraine Hitler.. I mean Putin... thinks he will have less NATO on his borders, he will actually have more. And that is a cold hard fact. Even if he succeeds he would have 2-3 more NATO members on his borders.

Anyways, may God have mercy on the innocents. And the fire burn hot for the wicked.

 

[real expert]

I really don't want to argue politics on Eupedia. Hence the humanitarian comments before is all that I will leave.

But be not mistaken, if you think this is about some security concerns for the Russia Federation, and not a fear of a North/South Korea style divergence in quality of life between Ukrainian citizens and Russian citizens endangering the Russian oligarchs then you have barely scratched the surface, in a not so shallow pond.

130 Million Russians, by number the most numerous people in Europe(albeit some of them fall in Asia). The Russian people are here to stay and be relevant no matter what government represents them. The ones feeling the heat are the oligarchs and autocrats.

One just had to see the progress Ukraine made in infrastructure since 2014 to see what the real concern is and why their cities are being razed to the ground.

Also you are misquoting Stoltenberg... I heard the speech live. You better read the whole paragraph and catch the context. He was saying if by threatening to invade Ukraine Hitler.. I mean Putin... thinks he will have less NATO on his borders, he will actually have more. And that is a cold hard fact. Even if he succeeds he would have 2-3 more NATO members on his borders.

Anyways, may God have mercy on the innocents. And the fire burn hot for the wicked.

I just want to know the real reasons behind this war and whether the security concerns of Russia are valid or not. To me, things aren't that crystal clear when it comes to this crisis. Hence, I don't shy away to look at assessments from people, such as Peter Hitches, who have a different view on this crisis. Keep in mind distrusting the narratives of our media and politicians does not equal supporting Russia. As I said Ukraine has the right to exist. Quite frankly, in the West, we don't know really much about Ukraine, the government, and the politicians there.

 

[Malaparte]

I see you don't really know Europe, you are underestimating some factors, may be Putin wil capture the Ukraine sooner or later. Nevertheless with a population that is very anti the occupation even 150.000 soldiers are by long not enough to occupy the Ukraine in the long run. In meantime Russia will be bankrupt.

There is a chance there will be a negotiated settlement in a few days. If not, I expect the Russians to prevail in the eastern part of the country, and though they will seek to spare ordinary Ukrainians, they will take ruthless measures against the most ardent nationalists. I don't think the Russians will try to subdue the western half, for several reasons, not least of which is the probable high cost in money and lives.

In essence, there are 3 wars being fought simultaneously. The first war is the armed conflict, which Russia is winning. The second war is that of media propaganda, which the West is (easily) winning. The third war is economic, in which the West has already played its cards. Russia + China have yet to play theirs.

 

[Malaparte]

The people in the West have seen what the fifth column of the authoritarian populist have said in supporting Putin, also in the attack on the Ukraine. People don't like that and so in the new cold war these populist will be more and more unmasked as what they are the underminers of liberal democracy.

The moderate ones, with support of the common people, are the ones who will defend Europe against tyranny.

Oh how they speak of defending against tyranny! Oh how they accuse the populists of authoritarianism!

And in the very same breath they do this --->>>

Information on possible criminal law limits on freedom of expression in relation to the situation in Ukraine

Feb 26, 2022

Brno - The Supreme Public Prosecutor's Office considers it necessary to inform citizens that the current situation associated with the Russian Federation's attack on Ukraine may have implications for their freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression is enshrined at the constitutional level in Article 17 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms. Everyone has the right to express their views in any way they see fit. But freedom of speech also has its limits in a democratic state governed by the rule of law.

If someone publicly (including demonstrations, the Internet or social networks) agreed (accepted or supported the Russian Federation's attacks on Ukraine) or expressed support or praised the leaders of the Russian Federation in this regard, they could also face criminal liability under certain conditions. for the criminal offense of approving a criminal offense pursuant to Section 365 of the Criminal Code, or for the criminal offense of denying, questioning, approving and justifying genocide pursuant to Section 405 of the Criminal Code.

The Supreme Public Prosecutor's Office appeals to all persons not to resort to public speeches in excess of the established constitutional and legal restrictions in these difficult times.

https://verejnazaloba.cz/nsz/inform...body-projevu-ve-vztahu-k-situaci-na-ukrajine/

 

[Northener]

Oh how they speak of defending against tyranny! Oh how they accuse the populists of authoritarianism!

And in the very same breath they do this --->>>

Information on possible criminal law limits on freedom of expression in relation to the situation in Ukraine

Feb 26, 2022

Brno - The Supreme Public Prosecutor's Office considers it necessary to inform citizens that the current situation associated with the Russian Federation's attack on Ukraine may have implications for their freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression is enshrined at the constitutional level in Article 17 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms. Everyone has the right to express their views in any way they see fit. But freedom of speech also has its limits in a democratic state governed by the rule of law.

If someone publicly (including demonstrations, the Internet or social networks) agreed (accepted or supported the Russian Federation's attacks on Ukraine) or expressed support or praised the leaders of the Russian Federation in this regard, they could also face criminal liability under certain conditions. for the criminal offense of approving a criminal offense pursuant to Section 365 of the Criminal Code, or for the criminal offense of denying, questioning, approving and justifying genocide pursuant to Section 405 of the Criminal Code.

The Supreme Public Prosecutor's Office appeals to all persons not to resort to public speeches in excess of the established constitutional and legal restrictions in these difficult times.

https://verejnazaloba.cz/nsz/inform...body-projevu-ve-vztahu-k-situaci-na-ukrajine/

Punishment for collaboration with the attacker is not unusual.

 

[Malaparte]

Punishment for collaboration with the attacker is not unusual.

Just as we were punished for collaborating with the virus