The Lady of Elche from Iberia

[Angela]

 

[bigsnake49]

Rather sophisticated sculpting that denotes advanced civilization.

 

[EV13SON]

She resembles Salma Hayek, must be that Punic Lebanese influence...

 

[Angela]

Rather sophisticated sculpting that denotes advanced civilization.

I agree, although the latest scholarship holds that while there were Carthaginian settlements in Spain at the time these statues may have nothing to do with them at all.

 

[bigsnake49]

I agree, although the latest scholarship holds that while there were Carthaginian settlements in Spain at the time these statues may have nothing to do with them at all.

I was surprised because I was not aware of such an sophisticated artistic expression in 500BC in Iberia. I would like to learn more. Well, from Wikipedia, "This original location was settled by the Greeks and then occupied by Carthaginians and Romans. Greek Ionian colonists from the Achaean city Helike established their new colony, naming it Helíkē (Greek: Ἑλίκη) around 600 BC. It was a point of resistance against Carthaginian advance in Spain between the First and Second Punic Wars.^[8][9] The Romans called the city Ilici or Illice and granted it the status of colonia;^[9]

 

[Angela]

I was surprised because I was not aware of such an sophisticated artistic expression in 500BC in Iberia. I would like to learn more. Well, from Wikipedia, "This original location was settled by the Greeks and then occupied by Carthaginians and Romans. Greek Ionian colonists from the Achaean city Helike established their new colony, naming it Helíkē (Greek: Ἑλίκη) around 600 BC. It was a point of resistance against Carthaginian advance in Spain between the First and Second Punic Wars.^[8][9] The Romans called the city Ilici or Illice and granted it the status of colonia;^[9]

Some people in this hobby have a history of being obsessed with the arrival of "Levantine" ancestry in the Middle and Western Mediterranean and even in Greece as a result of the "Punic" settlements or trading posts of the Phoenicians and after them the Carthaginians.

Very recently, a new paper has rather demolished that theory given that the samples from a Carthaginian settlement on the coast in Tunisia show no "recent" ancestry from the Levant. The only admixtures appeared to be from Sicilian and Greek traders and local Berbers.

In this particular case, the Carthaginians didn't arrive in Iberia until the third century B.C.E.
"In 236 BC, he [Hamilcar] led an expedition to Iberia where he hoped to gain a new empire for Carthage to compensate for the territories that had been lost in the recent conflicts with Rome and to serve as a base for vengeance against the Romans.
In eight years, by force of arms and diplomacy, Hamilcar secured an extensive territory, covering around half of the Iberian Peninsula, and Iberian soldiers later came to make up a large part of the army that his son Hannibal led into the Italian Peninsula to fight the Romans, but Hamilcar's premature death in battle (228 BC) prevented him from completing the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and was soon followed by the collapse of the short lived empire he had established."

This bust and two similar ones date to between the 4th-5th century B.C. It's therefore unclear to me how this bust could be based on a Levantine or even North African woman whose ashes were deposited within.

Now, it's true that there were Phoenician settlements much earlier in Iberian history, but by the 6th century B.C.E. they were in decline. Also, the two settlements closest to the site where the busts were discovered were founded by the Carthaginians long after the statue was carved, not by the Phoenicians

I'm afraid the internet "experts" were wrong once again.

The style shows Hellenic influences according to the scholars, so it seems to me the most parsimonious explanation would be that it was based on either an Iberian or Greek woman, or, more likely just copied the Archaic Greek statues of women.

I'd also point out that Salma Hayek is half Mexican, i.e. has a lot of Iberian in her.

Here is a still of the bust:

The reconstruction:

Fwiw, I don't think she looks particularly Lebanese or whatever.

If anything, I see a strong resemblance to Archaic Hellenic statuary. Not all dark haired and dark eyed women are Levantine.

 

[Davidtab]

There are incredible and amazing discoveries in the last years in southwestern Iberia (Turu?uelo, Cancho Roano, etc...). There was a very complex civilization there, and all the Mediterrean coast was very advanced, but this was attested yet in the roman written references about Iberians and Tartessians. Tartessos was completely punic culturizated (perhaps genetically influxed as well) first by Phoenicians and after them by Cartago. There are excellent conferences about this sites and cultures in YouTube, but you need to speak spanish.

 

[Angela]

There are incredible and amazing discoveries in the last years in southwestern Iberia (Turu�uelo, Cancho Roano, etc...). There was a very complex civilization there, and all the Mediterrean coast was very advanced, but this was attested yet in the roman written references about Iberians and Tartessians. Tartessos was completely punic culturizated (perhaps genetically influxed as well) first by Phoenicians and after them by Cartago. There are excellent conferences about this sites and cultures in YouTube, but you need to speak spanish.

Very true.

The Lady of Guardamar, a very similar bust, was also found near Alicante, in the territory of the Bastetani, and in researching her, I discovered that there was a Phoenician port city near there, but the dating is very haphazard.

Still, I think the Greek influence is even more pronounced in this piece.

She looks very much like the archaic Greek statues to me.