Ancient Italy K8 Model (Dodecad K12b)

**Malaparte** · 26-03-22, 20:33

British Isles + Calabrian = pseudo Northern Italian

Distance to:	malaparte
1.87958186	44.40% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 55.60% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
1.89503588	41.60% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 58.40% C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
2.31189153	41.60% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 58.40% C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019
2.51736624	43.80% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 56.20% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
2.54615496	42.00% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 58.00% C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
2.65179364	41.20% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 58.80% C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
2.73300606	42.40% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 57.60% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
2.77016537	44.60% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 55.40% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
2.84885272	44.80% Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015 + 55.20% C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
2.91473218	42.20% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 57.80% C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
2.93533480	43.00% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 57.00% C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
3.04410664	44.40% Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015 + 55.60% C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
3.10336229	42.40% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 57.60% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
3.12442915	41.40% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 58.60% C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019
3.14359042	43.20% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 56.80% C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
3.20189238	46.00% Yamnaya:I2105:Mathieson_2018 + 54.00% C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
3.21008419	45.60% Yamnaya:I2105:Mathieson_2018 + 54.40% C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
3.30659765	44.20% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 55.80% C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
3.30969676	44.20% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 55.80% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
3.34638374	43.00% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 57.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
3.43302820	41.40% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 58.60% C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019
3.47976241	42.20% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 57.80% C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
3.52413749	43.60% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 56.40% C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
3.55171983	43.20% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 56.80% C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019
3.70315321	45.20% Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015 + 54.80% C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019

**Duarte** · 26-03-22, 21:03

Originally Posted by Angela

Most of these calculators and the ones by others as well show high Central Italian Neolithic for me, 73% in some of the runs, lowering my Yamnaya by about 3%.

I wish there were more Italians posting their results so I could see if that holds true.

I would be really interested, for example, in results from the Marche and Umbria.to see where they fall in the cline.

Hi Angela.

I don't know if this information will help you. The modern coordinates used as target are from the Italians of Marche and Umbria and were taken from the updated Vahaduo Dodecad K12 spreadsheet. It was used as source the Jovialis's original produced in this thread.

Distance to:	Italian_Umbria
23.81414706	Anatolian_BA:I2495:Lazaridis_2017
23.82701198	Anatolian_BA:I2499:Lazaridis_2017
25.15173354	Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
25.35030572	Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
26.32666139	Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
26.58492430	Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021
26.82019016	Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
27.00905589	Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
27.60229338	Anatolian_BA:I2683:Lazaridis_2017
28.34750606	C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
28.48049859	Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
28.55217155	Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
28.79588686	C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
29.25250758	C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
29.73908371	C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019
29.78593460	C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019
30.40092926	C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019
30.62725584	C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
31.88117156	C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
33.17301765	C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019
36.34360879	C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019
39.22463894	C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019
44.49631333	Remedello:RISE489:Allentoft_2015
48.19812859	Remedello:RISE487:Allentoft_2015
57.04024632	Yamnaya:I0357_SVP5:Haak_2015

Distance to:	Italian_Marche
22.13260681	Anatolian_BA:I2495:Lazaridis_2017
22.15253990	Anatolian_BA:I2499:Lazaridis_2017
23.44018055	Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
23.60312530	Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
24.79636635	Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
24.96989315	Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021
25.26544288	Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
25.43636971	Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
25.86181749	Anatolian_BA:I2683:Lazaridis_2017
26.95776630	Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
27.01141729	Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
27.19959014	C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
27.68119044	C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
28.20914469	C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
28.72113549	C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019
28.76254829	C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019
29.43452707	C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019
29.76205510	C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
31.12222139	C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
32.70925288	C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019
35.93388184	C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019
38.70070005	C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019
44.75709669	Remedello:RISE489:Allentoft_2015
48.49391966	Remedello:RISE487:Allentoft_2015
58.11480280	Yamnaya:I0357_SVP5:Haak_2015

Target: Italian_Umbria Distance: 0.2171% / 0.21707844
49.9	Minoan

26.8	Yamnaya

14.1	Remedello

8.0	C_Italian_N

1.0	Iberomaurusian

0.2	C_Italian_ChL

Target: Italian_Marche Distance: 0.1049% / 0.10488226
50.2	Minoan

26.4	Yamnaya

16.7	C_Italian_N

5.6	Remedello

0.9	Iberomaurusian

0.2	C_Italian_ChL

Distance to:	Italian_Umbria
3.82098539	30.20% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 69.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.26836529	30.20% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 69.80% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
4.28828282	30.40% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 69.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.39452262	29.80% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 70.20% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
4.41574424	32.40% Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015 + 67.60% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
4.57440089	32.00% Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015 + 68.00% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
4.57864870	29.80% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 70.20% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.65379471	29.80% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 70.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.69000448	32.60% Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015 + 67.40% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
4.80314108	32.40% Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015 + 67.60% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
4.97583656	33.00% Yamnaya:I2105:Mathieson_2018 + 67.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
5.06172417	30.40% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 69.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
5.12625106	29.80% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 70.20% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.16716305	32.60% Yamnaya:I2105:Mathieson_2018 + 67.40% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
5.20275166	29.40% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 70.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.36996328	28.00% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 72.00% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.44406449	30.40% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 69.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
5.46008406	28.40% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 71.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.50983261	28.60% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 71.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
5.52363019	29.00% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 71.00% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.68359232	28.40% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 71.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.70599054	28.80% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 71.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
5.70717682	28.80% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 71.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
5.77655101	31.00% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 69.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
5.81406045	31.40% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 68.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017

Distance to:	Italian_Marche
3.04365085	28.60% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 71.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
3.32428084	28.80% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 71.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
3.68471648	28.20% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 71.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.04302632	28.20% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 71.80% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.38581483	27.00% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 73.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
4.38796719	28.60% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 71.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
4.42933269	28.20% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 71.80% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.44583283	27.80% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 72.20% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.53946217	27.00% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 73.00% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.61140939	28.80% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 71.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
4.65087717	27.40% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 72.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.69116164	27.00% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 73.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
4.69695901	27.40% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 72.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.70647303	26.60% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 73.40% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.72205191	27.40% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 72.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.77497306	27.00% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 73.00% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.83270518	31.00% Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015 + 69.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
4.84075911	30.60% Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015 + 69.40% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
4.91937988	31.00% Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015 + 69.00% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
4.94462986	31.40% Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015 + 68.60% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
5.01105234	26.60% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 73.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
5.02257707	28.20% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 71.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
5.04420279	28.80% Yamnaya:I0443_SVP57:Haak_2015 + 71.20% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.12934252	29.20% Yamnaya:I0443_SVP57:Haak_2015 + 70.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
5.15861134	27.80% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 72.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017

**Angela** · 26-03-22, 21:39

I see the anthrogenica crew is still kicking around here utilizing the let's throw any groups at the calculators that will give us the results we want even if they're modern populations which are not accurate at all chronologically or archaeologically.

I, half Northern Italian and half TSI like, get very good fits using Central Italian Neolithic plus some Yamnaya. Or, alternatively, Remedello, Central Italian Chalcolithic, Yamnaya, and Minoan or Greek Islander. Or, Iron Age Italics plus some Crete Islander. In fact, I get 70% Latin on some analyses with the rest being Crete Islander.

Those are the archaeological cultures which are appropriate historically and archaeologically. The analysis is supported by uniparental dna.

I get bad scores using ancient "Imperial Roman" plus "Celtic", because it doesn't approximate the populations which went into creating me. Period.

Your "analyses" always fail the "smell" test as well as any elementary reasoning. It's like telling a Uighur that an analysis finding he is half Chinese and half British is in any way a meaningful window into his past.

**Angela** · 26-03-22, 21:48

Originally Posted by Duarte

Hi Angela.

I don't know if this information will help you. The modern coordinates used as target are from the Italians of Marche and Umbria and were taken from the updated Vahaduo Dodecad K12 spreadsheet. It was used as source the Jovialis's original produced in this thread.

Distance to:	Italian_Umbria
23.81414706	Anatolian_BA:I2495:Lazaridis_2017
23.82701198	Anatolian_BA:I2499:Lazaridis_2017
25.15173354	Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
25.35030572	Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
26.32666139	Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
26.58492430	Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021
26.82019016	Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
27.00905589	Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
27.60229338	Anatolian_BA:I2683:Lazaridis_2017
28.34750606	C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
28.48049859	Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
28.55217155	Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
28.79588686	C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
29.25250758	C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
29.73908371	C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019
29.78593460	C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019
30.40092926	C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019
30.62725584	C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
31.88117156	C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
33.17301765	C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019
36.34360879	C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019
39.22463894	C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019
44.49631333	Remedello:RISE489:Allentoft_2015
48.19812859	Remedello:RISE487:Allentoft_2015
57.04024632	Yamnaya:I0357_SVP5:Haak_2015

Distance to:	Italian_Marche
22.13260681	Anatolian_BA:I2495:Lazaridis_2017
22.15253990	Anatolian_BA:I2499:Lazaridis_2017
23.44018055	Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
23.60312530	Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
24.79636635	Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
24.96989315	Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021
25.26544288	Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
25.43636971	Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
25.86181749	Anatolian_BA:I2683:Lazaridis_2017
26.95776630	Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
27.01141729	Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
27.19959014	C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
27.68119044	C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
28.20914469	C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
28.72113549	C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019
28.76254829	C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019
29.43452707	C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019
29.76205510	C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
31.12222139	C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
32.70925288	C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019
35.93388184	C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019
38.70070005	C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019
44.75709669	Remedello:RISE489:Allentoft_2015
48.49391966	Remedello:RISE487:Allentoft_2015
58.11480280	Yamnaya:I0357_SVP5:Haak_2015

Target: Italian_Umbria Distance: 0.2171% / 0.21707844
49.9	Minoan

26.8	Yamnaya

14.1	Remedello

8.0	C_Italian_N

1.0	Iberomaurusian

0.2	C_Italian_ChL

Target: Italian_Marche Distance: 0.1049% / 0.10488226
50.2	Minoan

26.4	Yamnaya

16.7	C_Italian_N

5.6	Remedello

0.9	Iberomaurusian

0.2	C_Italian_ChL

Distance to:	Italian_Umbria
3.82098539	30.20% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 69.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.26836529	30.20% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 69.80% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
4.28828282	30.40% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 69.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.39452262	29.80% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 70.20% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
4.41574424	32.40% Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015 + 67.60% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
4.57440089	32.00% Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015 + 68.00% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
4.57864870	29.80% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 70.20% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.65379471	29.80% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 70.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.69000448	32.60% Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015 + 67.40% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
4.80314108	32.40% Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015 + 67.60% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
4.97583656	33.00% Yamnaya:I2105:Mathieson_2018 + 67.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
5.06172417	30.40% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 69.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
5.12625106	29.80% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 70.20% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.16716305	32.60% Yamnaya:I2105:Mathieson_2018 + 67.40% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
5.20275166	29.40% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 70.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.36996328	28.00% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 72.00% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.44406449	30.40% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 69.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
5.46008406	28.40% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 71.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.50983261	28.60% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 71.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
5.52363019	29.00% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 71.00% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.68359232	28.40% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 71.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.70599054	28.80% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 71.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
5.70717682	28.80% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 71.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
5.77655101	31.00% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 69.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
5.81406045	31.40% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 68.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017

Distance to:	Italian_Marche
3.04365085	28.60% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 71.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
3.32428084	28.80% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 71.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
3.68471648	28.20% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 71.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.04302632	28.20% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 71.80% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.38581483	27.00% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 73.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
4.38796719	28.60% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 71.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
4.42933269	28.20% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 71.80% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.44583283	27.80% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 72.20% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.53946217	27.00% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 73.00% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.61140939	28.80% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 71.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
4.65087717	27.40% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 72.60% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.69116164	27.00% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 73.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
4.69695901	27.40% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 72.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.70647303	26.60% Yamnaya:RISE546:Allentoft_2015 + 73.40% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.72205191	27.40% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 72.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.77497306	27.00% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 73.00% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.83270518	31.00% Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015 + 69.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
4.84075911	30.60% Yamnaya:I0438_SVP50:Haak_2015 + 69.40% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
4.91937988	31.00% Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015 + 69.00% C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
4.94462986	31.40% Yamnaya:I0370_SVP10:Haak_2015 + 68.60% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
5.01105234	26.60% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 73.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
5.02257707	28.20% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 71.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
5.04420279	28.80% Yamnaya:I0443_SVP57:Haak_2015 + 71.20% Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
5.12934252	29.20% Yamnaya:I0443_SVP57:Haak_2015 + 70.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
5.15861134	27.80% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 72.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017

Very interesting. Thank-you, Duarte.

Tuscans definitely cluster with Northern Italians, and the Marche and Umbria are closer to Central Italy. Interestingly, Marche, although at the same "latitude" as Umbria, is more "southern" in its genetics. I wonder if there would be a difference if I had data for Northern vs. Southern Marche.

**Malaparte** · 26-03-22, 22:27

Originally Posted by Angela

I see the anthrogenica crew is still kicking around here utilizing the let's throw any groups at the calculators that will give us the results we want even if they're modern populations which are not accurate at all chronologically or archaeologically.

I barely vist anthrongenica. On the contrary, I come here because I view people like Jovialis and Pax Augustus as the most knowledgeable people online when it comes to Italian population genetics. You're no slouch yourself, but you can't separate politics from inquiry.

Originally Posted by Angela

Your "analyses" always fail the "smell" test as well as any elementary reasoning. It's like telling a Uighur that an analysis finding he is half Chinese and half British is in any way a meaningful window into his past.

Evidently you're the one who cannot read in this instance. I said PSEUDO northern Italian. I simply shared my results using the calculator provided, just as I shared that I had relatively high Anatolian BA and Iberomaurusian. And I acknowledged that the results are likely unreliable in my case due to mixed ancestry, in ways that cannot as yet be unraveled.

Or should we now have a rule that only 100% pure Italians are allowed to share their results? If so, please the state the rule boldly and I will abide by it.

**Duarte** · 26-03-22, 23:12

Originally Posted by Stefano

What is Bolshoy_Ostrov? why is it included? On a pca it seems near to Yamnaya.

From: Ancient Fennoscandian genomes reveal origin and spread of Siberian ancestry in Europe

Abstract

European population history has been shaped by migrations of people, and their subsequent admixture. Recently, ancient DNA has brought new insights into European migration events linked to the advent of agriculture, and possibly to the spread of Indo-European languages. However, little is known about the ancient population history of north-eastern Europe, in particular about populations speaking Uralic languages, such as Finns and Saami. Here we analyse ancient genomic data from 11 individuals from Finland and north-western Russia. We show that the genetic makeup of northern Europe was shaped by migrations from Siberia that began at least 3500 years ago. This Siberian ancestry was subsequently admixed into many modern populations in the region, particularly into populations speaking Uralic languages today. Additionally, we show that ancestors of modern Saami inhabited a larger territory during the Iron Age, which adds to the historical and linguistic information about the population history of Finland.

(…)
Broadly, present-day Europeans have ancestors in three deeply diverged source populations: European hunter-gatherers who settled the continent in the Upper Paleolithic, Europe’s first farmers who expanded from Anatolia across Europe in the early Neolithic starting around 8000 years ago, and groups from the Pontic Steppe that arrived in Europe during the final Neolithic and early Bronze Age ~ 4500 years ago. As a consequence, most Europeans can be modelled as a mixture of these three ancestral populations3.
This model, however, does not fit well for present-day populations from north-eastern Europe such as Saami, Russians, Mordovians, Chuvash, Estonians, Hungarians, and Finns: they carry additional ancestry seen as increased allele sharing with modern East Asian populations1,3,9,10.
(…)

**Stefano** · 27-03-22, 00:58

Thanks Duarte for the explanation on Bolshoy_Ostrov.

I have noticed that using Hallstat/La Tène instead of yamnaya improves the results for northern italians, lowering the fit, both in mixed and in two modes.

While C_Italian_N + Yamnaya is an acceptable approximation i think it lacks something, especially in alpine parts of italy.

**Malaparte** · 27-03-22, 01:22

Originally Posted by Stefano

Thanks Duarte for the explanation on Bolshoy_Ostrov.

I have noticed that using Hallstat/La Tène instead of yamnaya improves the results for northern italians, lowering the fit, both in mixed and in two modes.

While C_Italian_N + Yamnaya is an acceptable approximation i think it lacks something, especially in alpine parts of italy.

I was going to refer you to Jovialis' calculator on "La Tene to Model Italians" thread, but then saw that you were last person to comment there

**torzio** · 27-03-22, 02:32

Distance to: Torziok12b
35.11114353 Anatolian_BA:I2499:Lazaridis_2017
35.17248783 Anatolian_BA:I2495:Lazaridis_2017
35.37032372 C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
35.43131383 C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019
35.48590002 C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
35.61154869 Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
35.70662824 C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
35.71676357 C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019
35.73146792 C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019
35.82832957 C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
35.85533015 Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
35.97029330 C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019
36.08090908 Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
36.31372743 C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
37.16272460 Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
37.54310722 Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021
37.65628766 Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
37.99875524 C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019
38.82834918 Anatolian_BA:I2683:Lazaridis_2017
39.21310113 Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
39.40315470 Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
41.68266066 Remedello:RISE489:Allentoft_2015
42.53935825 C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019
45.09681474 Remedello:RISE487:Allentoft_2015
50.74563627 Yamnaya:I0357_SVP5:Haak_2015

**brick** · 28-03-22, 18:44

Distance to:	C6-Imperial_Rome_(n=13)
1.54313291	Italian_Campania
1.99298904	Italian_Molise
2.67254660	Italian_Basilicata
2.70117309	Italian_Abruzzo
2.98035580	Italian_Sicily
4.39661643	Italian_Apulia
4.58181833	Italian_Calabria
5.35800529	Greek_Lemnos
5.58613648	Ashkenazi_Jew
6.35601393	Moldovan_Jewish
6.75179844	Greek_Foca
6.86378607	Greek_Izmir
6.87973261	Greek_Fournoi
7.65389076	Greek_Central
7.69169167	Greek_Athens
7.94419996	Greek_Crete
8.14392875	Italian_Marche
8.48170732	Italian_Lazio
8.93514354	Italian_Jew
9.53744632	Greek_Icaria
9.78969384	Greek_Kos
9.82909601	Greek_Peloponnese
9.86080691	Italian_Umbria
10.51454988	Greek_Rhodes
11.27820557	Sephardic_Jew
11.29814371	Albanian
11.66178364	Italian_Romagna
11.88330104	Greek_Thrace
12.50021375	Greek_Thessaly
12.52959471	Greek_Thessaloniki
13.47045933	Morocco_Jew
14.03516865	Bulgarian_Thrace
14.54954841	Italian_Tuscany
14.63525267	Turk_Cyprus
14.70249604	French_Corsica
14.95332165	Albanian_Kosovo
15.02198970	Turk_Makedonya
16.10742415	Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
16.30714300	Italian_Emilia
16.56450948	Macedonian_South
16.56552111	Turk_Trakya
17.16474376	Turk_West_Black_Sea
17.18694399	Italian_Liguria
17.41372992	Macedonian_Vardar
17.56423741	Greek_Macedonia
17.64525817	Turk_Northwest
17.72839264	Greek_Cypriot
18.49194912	Turk_Southwest
18.58563935	Turk_Central_West
18.93212973	Moldovan_Gagauz
18.97633155	Macedonian_East
19.06088295	Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
19.09579025	Bulgarian_East
19.10874119	Turk_Deliorman
19.44655727	Macedonian_Polog
19.54532478	Greek_Cappadocia
19.97902240	Italian_Veneto
20.02091573	Italian_Lombardy
20.13971978	Italian_Piedmont
20.79432720	Turk_Central_East
21.11998847	Italian_Friuli_VG
21.12184372	Bulgarian_Central
21.25470386	Turk_South
21.37014069	Nusayri_Turkey
21.37373256	Pomak_Greece
21.79960174	Turk_Central_Black_Sea
21.91360127	Pomak_Bulgaria
22.56195618	Turk_Southeast
22.58228674	Bulgarian_West
22.68372980	Romanian_Muntenia
22.72970349	Lebanese_Muslim
23.35282567	Romanian_Oltenia
23.56846992	Romanian_Dobrogea
23.68586868	Swiss_Italian
23.86826324	Lebanese_Christian

**Jovialis** · 28-03-22, 19:44

^^I deleted the original post, because I made a mistake in the average. I accidently put a Late Antiquity sample in the mix.

Here is the corrected version:

Code:

C6-Imperial_Rome_(n=12),8.63,0.187272727,2.805454545,0.270909091,28.64272727,13.66454545,0.134545455,0.219090909,11.27727273,0.138181818,33.83181818,0.198181818

**Jovialis** · 28-03-22, 19:49

Originally Posted by Jovialis

^^I deleted the original post, because I made a mistake in the average. I accidently put a Late Antiquity sample in the mix.

Here is the corrected version:

Code:

C6-Imperial_Rome_(n=12),8.63,0.187272727,2.805454545,0.270909091,28.64272727,13.66454545,0.134545455,0.219090909,11.27727273,0.138181818,33.83181818,0.198181818

Distance to:	C6-Imperial_Rome_(n=12)
1.98351970	Italian_Campania
2.36331921	Italian_Basilicata
2.61374609	Italian_Molise
2.93977820	Italian_Sicily
3.04321682	Italian_Abruzzo
4.47868948	Italian_Calabria
4.50571712	Italian_Apulia
5.25139942	Greek_Lemnos
5.73387584	Ashkenazi_Jew
6.40187582	Moldovan_Jewish
6.66150989	Greek_Fournoi
6.72030677	Greek_Izmir
6.87600872	Greek_Foca
7.67469960	Greek_Crete
7.91513197	Greek_Central
8.01795743	Greek_Athens
8.60764121	Italian_Marche
8.87672008	Italian_Jew
8.89178658	Italian_Lazio
9.47850609	Greek_Kos
9.48846551	Greek_Icaria
10.10368949	Greek_Peloponnese
10.21009996	Greek_Rhodes
10.31746602	Italian_Umbria
11.15980064	Sephardic_Jew

Distance to:	C6-Imperial_Rome_(n=12)
4.47715875	Jovialis
4.90570405	S_Italian_Sicilian_D:Dodecad_(n=10)
5.61743434	Sicilian_D:Dodecad_(n=15)
8.63112368	C_Italian_D:Dodecad_(n=13)
8.91819007	Ashkenazy_Jews:Behar_(n=17)
9.05347374	Ashkenazi_D:Dodecad_(n=19)
9.52416666	Greek_D:Dodecad_(n=15)
11.17164940	Sephardic_Jews:Behar_(n=19)
11.81609555	O_Italian_D:Dodecad_(n=5)
12.71918828	Tuscan:HGDP_(n=7)
13.37627225	Morocco_Jews:Behar_(n=15)
13.91087624	TSI30:Metspalu_(n=21)
20.60977098	N_Italian_D:Dodecad_(n=5)
20.96541146	Cypriots:Behar_(n=11)
21.49697072	Turkish_D:Dodecad_(n=27)
21.83010693	North_Italian:HGDP_(n=11)
23.30132508	Bulgarian_D:Dodecad_(n=7)
23.73081858	Bulgarians_Y:Yunusbayev_(n=10)
24.09872734	Turks:Behar_(n=19)
24.53531268	Lebanese:Behar_(n=7)
24.80458399	Romanians:Behar_(n=16)
27.02420338	Syrians:Behar_(n=15)
27.78698723	Kurds_North:GEDmatch_(n=13)
28.43991633	Jordanians:Behar_(n=20)
28.46168917	Druze:HGDP_(n=32)

**Jovialis** · 28-03-22, 20:17

Code:

Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2),8.03,0.24,2.22,0.79,30.54,15.60,0.00,0.00,10.52,0.00,32.08,0.00

Maciamo created the above code for the average of the two samples from Imperial Marche. I am actually pretty close to this one.

Distance to:	Jovialis
2.64620483	Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

Distance to:	Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)
1.85230377	25.60% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 74.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
1.91935155	25.20% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 74.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
2.01881479	26.40% Yamnaya:I0443_SVP57:Haak_2015 + 73.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.12373104	25.80% Yamnaya:I0444_SVP58:Haak_2015 + 74.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.12681932	25.40% Yamnaya:RISE552:Allentoft_2015 + 74.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.27757528	25.40% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 74.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.28380399	24.80% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 75.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.29360958	24.80% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 75.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.29886473	25.40% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 74.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
2.44160165	26.20% Yamnaya:I0443_SVP57:Haak_2015 + 73.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
2.46878271	26.00% Yamnaya:I0231_SVP3:Haak_2015 + 74.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.49132064	25.80% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 74.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.54717348	24.60% Yamnaya:RISE548:Allentoft_2015 + 75.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
2.55603604	24.60% Yamnaya:I0429_SVP38:Haak_2015 + 75.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
2.59226754	27.40% Yamnaya:I0357_SVP5:Haak_2015 + 72.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.70757822	25.20% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 74.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.77203596	25.60% Yamnaya:I0444_SVP58:Haak_2015 + 74.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
2.88240720	25.60% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 74.40% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.96522847	25.20% Yamnaya:RISE552:Allentoft_2015 + 74.80% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
2.96915650	26.80% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 73.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
3.00607161	27.00% Yamnaya:I2105:Mathieson_2018 + 73.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
3.06074750	26.80% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 73.20% Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
3.06330296	25.00% Yamnaya:RISE547:Allentoft_2015 + 75.00% Minoan:Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021
3.16130762	26.40% Yamnaya:RISE240:Allentoft_2015 + 73.60% Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
3.17511909	25.00% Yamnaya:I3141:Mathieson_2018 + 75.00% Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017

**Palermo Trapani** · 29-03-22, 01:53

Jovialis: Thanks again. My distances to C6_Imperial Rome and Imperial_Marche:

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
3.69576785	Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)
3.97010367	C6-Imperial_Rome_(n=12)

**italouruguayan** · 29-03-22, 03:34

Originally Posted by Malaparte

Hi Italouruguayan -- Where in Italy did your ancestors come from? And from what other countries do you have ancestry?

Hello Malaparte!
Surely my non-European components (18% Native American, 3% Sub-Saharan African, both inherited from my maternal side), separate my results from the true Italians. My paternal grandfather was from Veneto, and my paternal grandmother, Uruguayan, had her four Italian grandparents, I believe, from Liguria and Lombardy. The European components of my maternal side, although they are mostly Iberian (Portugal), also include a great-grandfather of my mother, of Neapolitan origin.

**Salento** · 29-03-22, 07:27

... thanks Jovialis :)
… I don't have the modern averages you posted, maybe they’re around somewhere, and I must have missed them.

**Jovialis** · 27-06-22, 07:01

Here is the model with the academic Italian samples Salento and Pax Augusta provided:

**Jovialis** · 27-06-22, 19:43

I noticed there is an Anatolia_BA-cline, when you organize the samples that have it from in percentage order. What else is striking is that it is throughout the entire south. I wonder if this has to due with ultra-regionalism and people not being able to leave their towns very much. Some towns perhaps had more Eastern Mediterranean influence, and/or Aegean Islander Greek colonists than others? I think it is hard to pin down southern Italy as a whole because of that dynamic if that is the case.

Thread: Ancient Italy K8 Model (Dodecad K12b)

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