World Cup 2022

**torzio** · 30-12-22, 06:34

Originally Posted by firetown

I also speak Spanish, but whenever I hear Messi, he usually yells at someone using slang I haven't heard before.

he speaks argentine
Anyone who has spoken with Messi knows that he does not speak Spanish, but Argentine, or rather Rosarino. His favorite adjective is “espectacular”, which he pronounces “petacular”, consuming three letters. Instead of ‘trabajar’ he says ‘laburar’. When asked about his eldest son, Thiago, he answers proudly: “Le gusta el fúlbo”, which means “he likes soccer”, but not in Spanish, but in a South American dialect.

**torzio** · 30-12-22, 06:37

He speaks a Castilian and Catalan mix

**Angela** · 30-12-22, 15:14

Originally Posted by firetown

I also speak Spanish, but whenever I hear Messi, he usually yells at someone using slang I haven't heard before.

There's that too. :)

However, even when he's being interviewed, I have trouble understanding not just him, but even understanding the interviewer.

I have few difficulties with Castilian Spanish, because that's what I was originally taught. Yet, like Duarte, I find Mexican Spanish very clear and understandable.

As for Caribbean Spanish, Cuban is fine as long as it doesn't have too much slang. Puerto Rican and Central American I can handle as well, because there are so many people here who speak it,so you get used to the sounds.

Still, as I said, other than Castilian Spanish, Mexican Spanish is, for me, the easiest to understand, although I'm not sure why.

Another interesting thing that I noticed is that on the whole, Italians do much better understanding Spanish speakers than the reverse. There are lots of youtube videos that test it out and they show the same thing. I don't know why that would be.

The same is true for French. I found it extremely easy to learn to read it, and then the writing and understanding/speaking came later. The nuns made us listen to DeGaulle for pronunciation. :)

**Duarte** · 30-12-22, 16:52

About the mutual intelligibility of Spanish and Portuguese and about the hardest difficulty of hispanophones to understand the lusophones than the other way around, I found the following explanation:

‘Why do Spanish speakers find it more difficult to understand Portuguese?

Have you noticed that Spanish speakers do not understand our language as we assimilate theirs? There is a linguistic explanation

The explanation for this lies in what linguistics calls asymmetric intelligibility, when speakers of different but related languages understand each other without extraordinary efforts. In general, they are languages from regions that are geographically close or have a dialectal continuity, when one or more dialects of a language mix without geographical borders — as is the case of the Romance languages of Portugal, Spain, France and Italy.

But, in asymmetric intelligibility, although both languages are intelligible, generally one group has greater difficulty in understanding than the other. It can be at the time of reading, speaking, or writing.

The explanation for the difficulty of Spaniards in understanding us possibly lies in the fact that in Portuguese, writing often does not reflect the way it is spoken. While in Spanish some letters, for example a, e, i, o, u, r, n, s, have the same pronunciation, in Portuguese their sound varies depending on the context and position within a word.

Another factor is that we have more words than Spaniards—somewhere around 400,000 versus around 100,000. It also tells us that we are much more exposed to Spanish than speakers of that language are to Portuguese. Spanish is, after all, the second most spoken language in the world, with around 400 million adherents, while Portuguese is used by no more than 250 million people.

In addition to Portuguese and Spanish, other languages have mutual intelligibility (when both fully understand each other) or asymmetric, among them: Danish, Norwegian and Swedish; Russian and Ukrainian, Malaysian and Indonesian.’

**Angela** · 30-12-22, 20:24

Originally Posted by Duarte

About the mutual intelligibility of Spanish and Portuguese and about the hardest difficulty of hispanophones to understand the lusophones than the other way around, I found the following explanation:

‘Why do Spanish speakers find it more difficult to understand Portuguese?

Have you noticed that Spanish speakers do not understand our language as we assimilate theirs? There is a linguistic explanation

The explanation for this lies in what linguistics calls asymmetric intelligibility, when speakers of different but related languages understand each other without extraordinary efforts. In general, they are languages from regions that are geographically close or have a dialectal continuity, when one or more dialects of a language mix without geographical borders — as is the case of the Romance languages of Portugal, Spain, France and Italy.

But, in asymmetric intelligibility, although both languages are intelligible, generally one group has greater difficulty in understanding than the other. It can be at the time of reading, speaking, or writing.

The explanation for the difficulty of Spaniards in understanding us possibly lies in the fact that in Portuguese, writing often does not reflect the way it is spoken. While in Spanish some letters, for example a, e, i, o, u, r, n, s, have the same pronunciation, in Portuguese their sound varies depending on the context and position within a word.

Another factor is that we have more words than Spaniards—somewhere around 400,000 versus around 100,000. It also tells us that we are much more exposed to Spanish than speakers of that language are to Portuguese. Spanish is, after all, the second most spoken language in the world, with around 400 million adherents, while Portuguese is used by no more than 250 million people.

In addition to Portuguese and Spanish, other languages have mutual intelligibility (when both fully understand each other) or asymmetric, among them: Danish, Norwegian and Swedish; Russian and Ukrainian, Malaysian and Indonesian.’

Duarte, you did it! You figured it out for me.

I found it fascinating that Portuguese has such a large vocabulary compared to Spanish, so I googled it, of course. :) On this list, there's a Portuguese dictionary with 800.000 WORDS! Granted, that one includes expressions. The largest Italian Dictionary lists 500,000 words (and English is at 470,000). However, it says if you add all "sayable and writable" words or expressions it's over 2 million!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...umber_of_words

No wonder it's so often the case that I can't find a translation for certain Italian words or expressions.

Now that I think back on all those youtube and language videos, often the Italian speakers would guess the meaning of a Spanish word because it resembles a no longer as popular Italian word for that thing. That means Italian has multiple words for certain things, with a subtle shade of difference or tone which non-native speakers wouldn't recognize. Is Portuguese the same?

I had this discussion once with someone from Russia who refused to concede that English has more words than Russian. In English the reason is that there is usually both a Saxon and a French derived word for common objects, with Celtic words thrown in for good measure.

The same thing may apply to Italian, as well as it keeping more of the original Latin? I'm going to investigate.

**Duarte** · 30-12-22, 23:16

This is it, Angela: in Portuguese a word can have several synonyms, each synonym with a different etymology. Spanish speakers will understand that term that exists in both languages, but in a dialogue, will not understand terms that exist only in Portuguese, unless the context of the sentence in which the term is being used favors understanding. The following video is more entertaining than instructive (it has English subtitles). I have fun much more than I learn from situations. In the context of the video, we have four Portuguese-speaking individuals (lusophone people), one from Galicia (Spain), one from Brazil, one from the Azores (Portugal) and, finally, an individual who has lived in Poland for a long time (lives with people who speak the Polish). They play a word guessing game with each other. It's fun.

**Pashai Janinës** · 31-12-22, 02:38

https://twitter.com/TrollFootball/st...55333%2Fpage-2

**Duarte** · 31-12-22, 04:03

Asking forum members one more license to talk about the languages of Messi, Maradona, Pelé, Eusebio and Cristiano Ronaldo, comparatively: In this particular video, we also have a word guessing game between a Brazilian, a Chilean, a Spanish and a Mexican. Guessing is simple and the four participants have an excellent diction of Portuguese and Spanish, which makes the perception of accents and languages and the differences more interesting. Subtitles in English.

**Vallicanus** · 31-12-22, 10:57

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Not a bad theory.

The Italians, mostly from the South, were able to thrive and become more successful than many other well-established groups in the Untied States.

Though that may be because the most entrepreneurial, and individualistic South Italians left the South for greener pastures. Which in turn depletes the vitality of the region.

Not only South Italians.
Many arrived in Argentina, South Brazil and California from Liguria and NW Tuscany (Garfagnana, Lunigiana, etc) not to mention millions from Lombardy and the Veneto.

**Jovialis** · 31-12-22, 19:00

Originally Posted by Vallicanus

Not only South Italians.
Many arrived in Argentina, South Brazil and California from Liguria and NW Tuscany (Garfagnana, Lunigiana, etc) not to mention millions from Lombardy and the Veneto.

Some of my relatives went to South America in the 1950s to start businesses, but they didn't settle there. Ultimately they went to the USA afterwards.

**firetown** · 01-01-23, 06:04

Originally Posted by Duarte

Asking forum members one more license to talk about the languages of Messi, Maradona, Pelé, Eusebio and Cristiano Ronaldo, comparatively: In this particular video, we also have a word guessing game between a Brazilian, a Chilean, a Spanish and a Mexican. Guessing is simple and the four participants have an excellent diction of Portuguese and Spanish, which makes the perception of accents and languages and the differences more interesting. Subtitles in English.

Random question: When Maradona and Messi spoke with the likes of Pele, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo: In which language did they communicate?

**Duarte** · 01-01-23, 06:59

Originally Posted by firetown

Random question: When Maradona and Messi spoke with the likes of Pele, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo: In which language did they communicate?

In a hypothetical meeting between Messi, Maradona, Pelé, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho, I imagine that the language chosen for the talks would be Spanish. Messi and Maradona are native speakers of Spanish, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho are native speakers of Portuguese, but they played for a long time in Spain. Pelé speaks Portuguese and English, but for a Portuguese speaker there is no difficulty in understanding Spanish and Pelé would count on the help of Ronaldo and Ronaldinho to help him with any translation from Portuguese to Spanish that might be necessary. In resume, it will be a conversation of mates in Spanish.

**kingjohn** · 07-01-23, 17:07

rest in peace

**firetown** · 11-01-23, 12:02

Originally Posted by Duarte

In a hypothetical meeting between Messi, Maradona, Pelé, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho,

I am confused about your "hypothetical" rhetoric. They all have met. Do I need to be more direct?
Here it goes:
In which language did the above communicate?

**Duarte** · 11-01-23, 23:32

Originally Posted by firetown

I am confused about your "hypothetical" rhetoric. They all have met. Do I need to be more direct?
Here it goes:
In which language did the above communicate?

Hmm. You are a “gentleman”. I can tell you that “mineiros” like me follow the traditional rhetoric of the “gentlemen” of the State of Minas Gerais: give an ox to not get into a fight and a whole herd to not get out of one. In principle, my intention was to leave him in a vacuum, without an objective answer, as my son would, for example. Maybe today I'm a little more sensitive than usual to think that your question is a gratuitous gringo rudeness but here's a direct answer, since you think I abuse rhetoric: Spanish

**firetown** · 13-01-23, 19:12

Originally Posted by Duarte

Spanish

Again, meaningless rhetoric, racism and so much more... after all you got the answer probably right.

**Angela** · 13-01-23, 19:25

^^I have no idea what you're talking about. Duarte is a valued member of our community, a gentleman at all times, and I do not now see nor ever have seen him say anything remotely racist. You couldn't do better than model your comportment after his.

**Duarte** · 13-01-23, 20:26

Originally Posted by firetown

Again, meaningless rhetoric, racism and so much more... after all you got the answer probably right.

I think you must be with some personal problem that affects your logical reasoning ability. I have never been a racist person and I cannot see what action or omission on my part here in this forum would have led you to deduce this nonsense that I am a racist person. I remind you that in my country racism and racial injury are imprescriptible and non-bailable crimes and the penalties can vary from 2 to 5 years of imprisonment and a fine and that slanderous denunciation is also a crime and, certainly, under the laws of my country, I have never committed or was denounced by these crimes, including racism.

**Duarte** · 13-01-23, 21:22

Originally Posted by Angela

^^I have no idea what you're talking about. Duarte is a valued member of our community, a gentleman at all times, and I do not now see nor ever have seen him say anything remotely racist. You couldn't do better than model your comportment after his.

^^Angela. Apparently, he deducted that “gringo” is a pejorative and racist term. It turns out that in Brazil this term is not pejorative and even less racist. It is used as a synonym for foreigner. In Brazil, the term gringo is used to refer to any foreign person, regardless of the country of origin, visiting or already residing in Brazil. For example. In a company, an employee can make the following statement to other co-workers: A new employee is going to join the company, and it looks like he's a gringo. It's not an offense. Means the same as: A new employee is going to join the company, and it seems that he is a foreigner. It's a Brazilian slang. If anyone else was offended by what I said, I apologize as that was not my intention.

**torzio** · 13-01-23, 23:00

Originally Posted by Duarte

^^Angela. Apparently, he deducted that “gringo” is a pejorative and racist term. It turns out that in Brazil this term is not pejorative and even less racist. It is used as a synonym for foreigner. In Brazil, the term gringo is used to refer to any foreign person, regardless of the country of origin, visiting or already residing in Brazil. For example. In a company, an employee can make the following statement to other co-workers: A new employee is going to join the company, and it looks like he's a gringo. It's not an offense. Means the same as: A new employee is going to join the company, and it seems that he is a foreigner. It's a Brazilian slang. If anyone else was offended by what I said, I apologize as that was not my intention.

many theories of gringo

used in Mexico to tell the “green” uniformed USA soldiers to “go” ...............as in home back to USA.

**Duarte** · 13-01-23, 23:22

Originally Posted by torzio

many theories of gringo
used in Mexico to tell the “green” uniformed USA soldiers to “go” ...............as in home back to USA.

Yes. There are many stories for the origin of the term.

One of the most told around here is that the word “gringo” came from the word “Grego” (Greek in Portuguese). The term came into use because of the expression “falar grego” - “speaking Greek" during the 18th century.

That's because Greek was considered a very difficult language to understand. So when foreigners spoke incomprehensibly, it was said to sound like “Grego” (Greek). Over time, the word “Grego” (Greek) came to be used to refer to foreigners in general, assuming the pronunciation and spelling “gringo” with the passage of time, maybe by influence of the Spanish.

**italouruguayan** · 15-01-23, 22:21

Originally Posted by Duarte

^^Angela. Apparently, he deducted that “gringo” is a pejorative and racist term. It turns out that in Brazil this term is not pejorative and even less racist. It is used as a synonym for foreigner. In Brazil, the term gringo is used to refer to any foreign person, regardless of the country of origin, visiting or already residing in Brazil. For example. In a company, an employee can make the following statement to other co-workers: A new employee is going to join the company, and it looks like he's a gringo. It's not an offense. Means the same as: A new employee is going to join the company, and it seems that he is a foreigner. It's a Brazilian slang. If anyone else was offended by what I said, I apologize as that was not my intention.

It is curious how many expressions that we Latin Americans use are misinterpreted. Here in Uruguay, the word "gringo" was also used as a synonym for foreigner, not just American. In fact, it was applied to Italian immigrants, perhaps because, since most of northern Italy, there were many blondes and blue-eyed. They called my grandfather "gringo" more than once. Even the nickname was extended to my father...it was funny to hear a friend of the family (of Italian origin!), call my father "gringo", perhaps because he is blond and blue-eyed. And about other misinterpreted words... Uruguayan footballer Edinson Cavani had a pretty bad time in England, when after scoring a spectacular goal for Manchester United, he received congratulations on social media from a friend of him from Uruguay, and he responded saying "Gracias, negrito!"...He was immediately censured, accused of being racist, penalized with money, and they made him apologize in a thousand different ways...despite the protests of his friend who said: hey, he's my friend ! He didn't insult me, he always called me that way!!!