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Thread: Southern Ancestry in "Steppe"

  1. #126
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    ^^^ You seem to be using some wrong version of Vahaduo? I was using the official one:

    https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

    And seriously here the Dutch average scores 0% of UKR_N. Use my SOURCE popiulations.
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    Wow! One sample from the Finistere Department even scores below 35% Barcin_N:

    Target: 29_Finistère:EXPL0186

    But most are within 35-40% range and a few slightly above 40% but less than 41%.

    So I mill mark Finistere as 35-40% in my map (or just "below 40%").
    Last edited by Tomenable; 24-04-22 at 21:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^ You seem to be using some wrong version of Vahaduo? I was using the official one:

    https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

    And seriously here the Dutch average scores 0% of UKR_N. Use my SOURCE popiulations.
    When I use your figures I get 100% West Eurasian.

    So I took them separate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^ You seem to be using some wrong version of Vahaduo? I was using the official one:

    https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

    And seriously here the Dutch average scores 0% of UKR_N. Use my SOURCE popiulations.
    I took the west Eurasian out of it, and retouched the West Eurasian, and this is the result:

    [url=https://postimages.org/][/url

    And indeed in my case Ukraine_N disappears (like dad) in mothers case it's on a Danish level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    The NAZI Aryan theory was based on weird occult theories, especially framed by Herman Wirth:



    IMO all esoteric bullshit. Nevertheless it caused for example the holocaust.

    This 'Aryan type' was connected to the old classifiers Deniker, Eickstedt...Coon you name it with a 'Nordid' phenotype, blond, light pigmented dolio's. Those classifiers had mostly a racial biased agenda....

    I guess Northwest Europeans are basically (muted) Bell Beakers. They had their cradle in the Rhine Delta, and spread all over the NW European place the Isles included. They were more than 50% Steppe and with a considerable amount of EEF and HG. Probably due to the mixture of Single Grave People that went about 2850 BC from central Europe to the North Sea and Rhine Delta were the met and mixed with the Funnelbeakers/ Michelberg people. They were in some regions pretty high in HG (see Blatterhöhle MN). Later on migrations probably enhanced the neolithic factor somewhat in some regions of NW Europe.

    By the way those BB were not conform the 'Aryan' ideal type; they were brachycephalic and steephead (and like the Steppe types as a whole not per se blond blue eyed). Like some of their heirs that lived from Northern Germany/ North Dutch to Norway, but they didn't fit in the 'desired' Aryan picture of the racial classifiers.

    Ok and about the claim of the Nazi's with regard to the Roman heritage. It's indeed like you said, they had a fascination for empires. And don't forget already Charles the Great claimed to Roman heritage already. Important Frankish/Rhineland cities like Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium (aka Cologne) and Aquae Granni (aka Aachen) Mogontiacum (aka Mainz) had a Roman blueprint. That's way they claimed "das dritte Reich".
    It is indeed bullshit, it is basically like debating the high-fantasy at this point. They didn't have what we have today, and they were guided by a clear bias. I know there were other competing theories. I recall from a program I saw, the Aryan steppe theory became prominent after some theory with Pagan trees became unviable. There's also the theory they Aryan race came from an ice ball from outer-space. That sort of reminds me of the panspermia hypothesis, of tardigrades seeding life on plants. At any rate, let us get back on topic of Southern Ancestry in Steppe.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    OK here is a preliminary version.

    Anatolia Neolithic admix in France by department. There are still many departments with no samples, I left them blank for now:
    Marne Department has only one sample and it looks like an outlier with too much of Neolithic Farmer admixture for this latitude:

    (lateer I will post an updated / final version in a new thread)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    OK here is a preliminary version.

    Anatolia Neolithic admix in France by department. There are still many departments with no samples, I left them blank for now:
    Marne Department has only one sample and it looks like an outlier with too much of Neolithic Farmer admixture for this latitude:

    (lateer I will post an updated / final version in a new thread)

    I will not be convinced until I see an academic study confirm the rates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    When I use your figures I get 100% West Eurasian.
    You just need to change the "Aggregate" option from YES to NO here:

    https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

    With Aggregate - YES you will score 100% West_Euraisan.

    If you change to NO it will break down your results further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I will not be convinced until I see an academic study confirm the rates.
    And how much exactly do academic studies diverge from my map?

    From what I've seen so far, G25 models usually produce very similar results to academic calculators.

    If the same source populations are used while modelling, of course.

    There is no academic study with as many regional samples (by department) as Jerome's Project has:

    https://www.exploreyourdna.com/listes.aspx

    ^^^
    He has published the data. Scroll to the bottom to "G25 Liste Explore Your DNA" and click Telecharger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And how much exactly do academic studies diverge from my map?

    From what I've seen so far, G25 models usually produce very similar results to academic calculators.

    If the same source populations are used while modelling, of course.

    There is no academic study with as many regional samples (by department) as Jerome's Project has:

    https://www.exploreyourdna.com/listes.aspx

    ^^^
    He has published the data. Scroll to the bottom to "G25 Liste Explore Your DNA" and click Telecharger.
    How is that possible if it violates the maps and charts I presented from seminal studies and published works?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    How is that possible if it violates the maps and charts I presented from seminal studies and published works?
    In what way it violates them?

    The maps you published were not based on actual DNA samples from every department.

    The isolines in that map were automatically inferred based on DNA from only a few reions.

    The map you posted is from 2015 and the first study which published DNA from many regions of France is Biagini 2019:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/718098v2.full

    But even Biagini doesn't have as many regional samples as Jerome. And Biagini did not check genealogy of his samples.

    I think Jerome should publish his findings after he finishes this Project, perhaps in cooparation with some scientist.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Biagini 2019 samples have been converted to G25 coordinates so I will update my map taking them into account as well.

    =====


    Note that Jerome accepts into his project only people with all 4 grandparents born in the same department.

    In Biagini's study samples were selected based on current place of residence without checking grandparents.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Data by department shows that France, Corsica excluded, has a wide range of Anatolia_N from 60% in the SW to 35% in the NW.

    Which is a pretty big range.

    I don't have as much regional data for Poland as Jerome has for France, but I think in Poland there is also a wide range, 40-20%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    You just need to change the "Aggregate" option from YES to NO here:

    https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

    With Aggregate - YES you will score 100% West_Euraisan.

    If you change to NO it will break down your results further.
    Thanks, the result!


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    ^^^ Now you and your dad score like a typical North Dutch. Your mom seems more Danish-like (Frisian?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^ Now you and your dad score like a typical North Dutch. Your mom seems more Danish-like (Frisian?).
    No Dad is more coastal (Groningen), mom is from Drenthe that has the oldest populations of the Netherlands.

    This is from a Frisian:



    Angles made this for me:
    right pops:
    Villabruna
    Vestonice16
    Ust_Ishim_published.DG
    Kostenki14.SG
    GoyetQ116-1_udg_published
    MA1.SG
    GanjDareh
    BOT14.SG
    Kostenki
    S_Mbuti-3.DG
    A_Papuan-16.DG
    A_Han-4.DG
    Andaman.SG


    left pops:
    NorthenerDad_NL
    Denmark_IA
    Ansarve_Megalithic (I wanted to have a "farmer" source. The choice of Ansarve can be disputed, but anyway, according to the results the question has no real importance ...)


    best coefficients: 1.025 -0.025
    totmean: 1.025 -0.025
    boot mean: 1.027 -0.027
    std. errors: 0.100 0.100
    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 11 5.192 0.921515 1.025 -0.025 infeasible
    01 1 12 5.260 0.948719 1.000 0.000
    10 1 12 113.107 1.45072e-18 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 00 0.921515 - -
    best pat: 01 0.948719 chi(nested): 0.068 p-value for nested model: 0.793938




    left pops:
    Northenermum_NL
    Denmark_IA
    Ansarve_Megalithic




    best coefficients: 0.984 0.016
    totmean: 0.984 0.016
    boot mean: 0.986 0.014
    std. errors: 0.097 0.097




    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 11 6.040 0.870674 0.984 0.016
    01 1 12 6.066 0.912698 1.000 0.000
    10 1 12 122.121 2.33258e-20 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 00 0.870674 - -
    best pat: 01 0.912698 chi(nested): 0.026 p-value for nested model: 0.871204


    The p-values of the nested models are astronomic. According to this analysis Northerner parents are "pure" Danish from the Iron Age. Btw Denmark_IA is for the three individuals from Margaryan. Of course I used imputed genomes for Northener's parents (947035 SNPs). For the experts, I've taken the risk to keep the transitions.


    I guess this is quit accurat.

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    Haute Garonne samples form Biagini 2019 fall within 50-55% Anatolia_N range.

    I marked Haute Garonne as 55-60% based on samples from Jerome's Project.

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    Biagini 2019 study has many samples, but they cover only 7 departments in total:

    - PdD samples names starting with C = Auvergne, Puy-de-Dome department
    - HG samples names starting with T = Occitanie, Haute Garonne department
    - BdR samples names starting with S = Provence, Marseille (Bouches-du-Rhone)
    - IeV names starting with B = Rennes Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine department
    - BR samples names starting with A = Alsace, Bas-Rhin department
    - NO names starting with N = Hauts de France, Nord department
    - PAR samples (names without letter) = from the city of Paris

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for the calculator:

    Target: Flann_scaled
    Distance: 4.0932% / 0.04093182

    41.4 West_Eurasian:TUR_Barcin_N
    40.6 West_Eurasian:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    15.2 West_Eurasian:WHG_I18752.
    2.8 West_Eurasian:NOR_Meso

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I guess this is quit accurat.
    But it seems he did not include any ancient populations from the Netherlands in this analysis.

    So you scored "pure Danish". Maybe if ancient NL was included, you would score differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But it seems he did not include any ancient populations from the Netherlands in this analysis.

    So you scored "pure Danish". Maybe if ancient NL was included, you would score differently.
    That would be a question indeed. If only....

    How reasonable is it that it surpasses this result??

    best coefficients: 0.984 0.016
    totmean: 0.984 0.016
    boot mean:0.986 0.014

    Ok only 100% is better

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    OK here is a preliminary version.

    Anatolia Neolithic admix in France by department. There are still many departments with no samples, I left them blank for now:
    Marne Department has only one sample and it looks like an outlier with too much of Neolithic Farmer admixture for this latitude:

    (lateer I will post an updated / final version in a new thread)


    map looks like the linguistic split of french languages .................L'Oil ......french and frankish ( german ) mix and
    L'Oc french and italian/catalan mix
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Check please my new "World 10,000 Years Ago" calculator here:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...o-K42-G25-calc

    BTW - I wonder if Crimean Hunter-Gatherers were CHG-related or related to UKR_Meso (I think they could be CHG-like, it is possible):

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ew_from_Crimea

    Location of sites inhabited by Crimean Hunter-Gatherers:

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_301566524

    Shan-Koba (1), Murzak-Koba (2), Fat'ma-Koba (3), Grot Skalist'iy (4), Shpan-Koba (5), Laspi 7 (6), BBBP-2 and MM-2 (7)



    ^^^
    And prehistoric Kuban region could also be inhabited by a CHG-like population - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban

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    New previously unknown Proto-Yamnaya group is discovered:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.04.490594v1

    "We identify hitherto genetically undescribed hunter-gatherers from the Middle Don region that contributed ancestry to the later Yamnaya steppe pastoralists."

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