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Thread: Southern Ancestry in "Steppe"

  1. #151
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    ^^^ IMO this new paper will prove that PIE homeland = Middle Don River area and PGmc homeland = Nordic BA.

    Supporters of "southern origins" (respectively Iran/Armenia for PIE and Jastorf for PGmc) will be disappointed.
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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    Dude, this is the third time I‘m telling someone on this thread that my thread is NOT about PIE Homeland.

    Also HGs from Middle Don being a source for Yamnaya is perfectly fine with my hypothesis that CHG/Iran-related and EHG-related groups mixed on the steppe. The source for CHG/Iran is either in the Lower Don or the Lower Volga, the former seems more likely according to this new paper.

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    "427 We demonstrate that this “steppe” ancestry (Steppe_5000BP_4300BP) can be modelled as a
    428 mixture of ~65% ancestry related to herein reported hunter-gatherer genomes from the Middle Don
    429 River region (MiddleDon_7500BP) and ~35% ancestry related to hunter-gatherers from Caucasus
    430 (Caucasus_13000BP_10000BP) (Extended Data Fig. 4). Thus, Middle Don hunter-gatherers, who
    431 already carry ancestry related to Caucasus hunter-gatherers (Fig. 2), serve as a hitherto unknown
    432 proximal source for the majority ancestry contribution into Yamnaya genomes. The individuals in
    433 question derive from the burial ground Golubaya Krinitsa (Supplementary Note 3). Material culture
    434 and burial practices at this site are similar to the Mariupol-type graves, which are widely found in
    435 neighbouring regions of Ukraine, for instance along the Dnepr River. They belong to the group of
    436 complex pottery-using hunter-gatherers mentioned above, but the genetic composition at Golubaya
    437 Krinitsa is different from the remaining Ukrainian sites (Fig 2A, Extended Data Fig. 4)."

  4. #154
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    ^^^
    So there is no ancestry from south of the Caucasus.

    And 2/3 of Yamnaya ancestry is from Middle Don HG.

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    "Our results thus document genetic contact between populations from the Caucasus and the Steppe region as early as 7,300 years ago."

  6. #156
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Where do they say where this southern ancestry comes from ? Nowhere it seems.
    7300 years ago is 5300 BC, again this is perfectly fine with my hypothesis that they moved north from the southern Caucasus before 6500BC and then they mixed on the steppe for the most part.
    Last edited by Anfänger; 06-05-22 at 10:11.

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    From Caucasus_13000BP_10000BP ???

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    From Caucasus_13000BP_10000BP ???
    New samples from Georgia it seems. They don’t seem to be different compared to the ones we already have.

    Edit: In this particular context they are probably referring to Satsurblia and Kotias though.
    Last edited by Anfänger; 06-05-22 at 15:26.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Pretty cool guy with R1b haplogroup:

    "Mades, NEO752; Jorlse 03.06.06-53, Zealand. Wetland with bog skeleton
    Anders Fischer and Lisbeth Pedersen
    In a peat cutting area in Minor Aamose, next to Lake Mades, a well-preserved human
    cranium was found c. 1.75 m below surface. Museums have received several Stone Age
    items from the same cutting, including two flint daggers of Late Neolithic date. They are all
    interpreted as the result of sacrificial deposition - cf. text on Jorlse Mose above. According
    to a physical anthropological inspection of 1945 (K. Brste unpublished notes,
    Anthropological Laboratory) the skull represents a male c. 50 years of age. It has healed
    impact scars on its forehead and is characterised by unusually robust facial characteristics,
    including ‘nearly ape-like eyebrows [supraorbital ridge]’ (Figure S6.14; cf.
    comments as to a potential genetic background for these characteristics, mentioned within the above
    presentation of the Borreby site).
    Via a radiocarbon date (352344 14C years BP, AAR-8302)
    it can be dated to the South Scandinavian Late Neolithic."

    ^^^ And his ancestry proportions:


  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Pretty cool guy with R1b haplogroup:

    "Mades�, NEO752; Jorl�se 03.06.06-53, Zealand. Wetland with bog skeleton
    Anders Fischer and Lisbeth Pedersen
    In a peat cutting area in Minor Aamose, next to Lake Mades�, a well-preserved human
    cranium was found c. 1.75 m below surface. Museums have received several Stone Age
    items from the same cutting, including two flint daggers of Late Neolithic date. They are all
    interpreted as the result of sacrificial deposition - cf. text on Jorl�se Mose above. According
    to a physical anthropological inspection of 1945 (K. Br�ste unpublished notes,
    Anthropological Laboratory) the skull represents a male c. 50 years of age. It has healed
    impact scars on its forehead and is characterised by unusually robust facial characteristics,
    including ‘nearly ape-like eyebrows [supraorbital ridge]’ (Figure S6.14; cf.
    comments as to a potential genetic background for these characteristics, mentioned within the above
    presentation of the Borreby site).
    Via a radiocarbon date (3523�44 14C years BP, AAR-8302)
    it can be dated to the South Scandinavian Late Neolithic."

    ^^^ And his ancestry proportions:

    There must be something wrong with the modeling. There is no way that these samples don't have any WHG or very little at least. Middle Don is probably picking up all the WHG in these Scandinavian samples, to compensate the lack of WHG in steppe.

    Actually, I don't see Middle Don as good proxy for steppe ancestry. These are HGs that already have a small component of CHG/Iran but need additional 35%. What kind of stupid wording is this ? Instead they could have said they have to little CHG/Iran to be the proximal source for Yamnaya, just like Khavlynsk which also has a small component CHG/Iran but not enough.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    There must be something wrong with the modeling. There is no way that these samples don't have any WHG or very little at least. Middle Don is probably picking up all the WHG in these Scandinavian samples, to compensate the lack of WHG in steppe.

    Actually, I don't see Middle Don as good proxy for steppe ancestry. These are HGs that already have a small component of CHG/Iran but need additional 35%. What kind of stupid wording is this ? Instead they could have said they have to little CHG/Iran to be the proximal source for Yamnaya, just like Khavlynsk which also has a small component CHG/Iran but not enough.
    Don foragers could have some WHG that is "eating" into later populations' WHG ancestry. But Boncuklu was also WHG-shifted compared to Barcin if I remember the PCA from that paper correctly.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Don foragers could have some WHG that is "eating" into later populations' WHG ancestry. But Boncuklu was also WHG-shifted compared to Barcin if I remember the PCA from that paper correctly.
    I agree, that's also my impression. That's why I think it's not a good proxy for steppe ancestry.

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