Southern Ancestry in "Steppe"

[Anfänger]

We know from various studies that Yamnaya/Corded ware and Eneolithic Steppe(Progress/Vonyuchka) have a significant amount of southern ancestry, right now called CHG or CHG/Iran but we still don't know where it is exactly from. There are many suggestions, I try to summarize the two main hypothesis that are up to debate.

1.Some argue that the southern ancestry is from the NORTHERN Caucasus and that it mixed with a northern source most closely related to EHGs in the Mesolithic to form the typical steppe ancestry profile of the various steppe groups. Actually this is the hypothesis Davidski and his crowd is favoring.

2.Others argue that the southern ancestry is from the SOUTHERN Caucasus and it moved north where it mixed with a northern source(EHG-related) ON the Pontic-caspian steppe to form the famous steppe ancestry. Actually this is the hypothesis I favour.

Here I want to present some arguments for a southern homeland for CHG/Iran of steppe ancestry:

-The autosomal breakdown of the southern ancestry of Eneolithic Steppe(simulated) looks like this:

Bildschirmfoto 2022-03-25 um 17.09.21.png

We can see that it is very much like hunter-gatherers from modern day Georgia(kotias) BUT it has a significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N. These three populations probably aren't the real sources because the distance is pretty high, but they give us a hint. So how likely is it that a population living north of the caucasus has significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N ? I think the answer is clear, there is zero chance for population with this autosomal breakdown to live just north of Kotias and Satsurblia(CHG).

- We can also observe the same position for this southern ancestry on a PCA:

Unknown.jpg

We see a shift of the southern ancestry (ProgressCHG) towards Iran_N (Ganj_Dareh) and away from CHG(Kotias), also it has a minor shift towards Anatolian_N(Tepecik Ciftlik_N). Interestingly, the southern ancestry is exactly between Iran_Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik_N, with a stronger shift towards Hotu though. Maybe the population we are searching for lived just between Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik? Anyway, nothing indicates a population just north of CHG, the Caucasus.

- Here are the original (not simulated) samples from the Eneolithic Steppe:

Bildschirmfoto 2022-04-01 um 12.33.34.png

Vonyuchka has close to double the amount of Iran_N than Progress. Let´s exclude the EHG-related signal and calculate the amount of Iran_N the southern ancestry of Vonyuchka might have.
Simple math: 14/40,5=0,345=34,5%

So, it's 34,5% Iran_N and maybe including some traces of Anatolian_N.
The southern ancestry of Vonyuchka is approximately: 65,5(CHG)+34.5%(Iran_N)

- Now let's see what David Anthony has to say about the southern ancestry:



The highest amount of southern ancestry is in Berezhnovka just north of the Volga Delta/Estuary not from the northern Caucasus(Progress/Vonyuchka). David Anthony thinks that there was population with "pure" southern ancestry in the Volga Delta/Estuary, this might be true, but we need samples from there to prove it like he also says. Luckily, we know from the Patterson et al. 2022 preprint that the mixture between a southern and northern source population happened at about 4400BC*. So it didn't happened in the Mesolithic like Davidski assumed. I think we can also exclude the southern Caucasus for this mixture event if it happened at about 4400BC because there was too much Anatolian_N in the southern Caucasus in this time period to be the source. The mixture must have happened ON the steppe for the most part.

All these taking together I think we can exclude the first hypothesis favoured by Davidski and his crowd. Personally, i think the best place for this southern ancestry has to be Eastern Turkey/Northern Iran/Armenia/Azerbaijan, before roughly 6500 BC of course.

Edit: *It seems like people on AG refuted the Date of roughly 4400BC from the Patterson et al. 2022 preprint. I will update this part if the paper is peer-reviewed and a new date is proposed.

[Tomenable]

Here it is explained why northern Caucasus must be the source:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48bhkOiEuA&t=2098s


^^^
David Anthony is talking about this issue in this video as well.


He says:


"They have to have gotten into the steppes from the Caucasus before 6500-6000 BC" - says Anthony.


BTW - I wonder if Crimean Hunter-Gatherers were CHG-related.


If Crimea was inhabited by CHG-like foragers, then CHG admixture could enter the steppe from there.

[Anfänger]

Here it is explained why northern Caucasus must be the source:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48bhkOiEuA&t=2098s


^^^
David Anthony is talking about this issue in this video as well.


He says:


"They have to have gotten into the steppes from the Caucasus before 6500-6000 BC" - says Anthony.


BTW - I wonder if Crimean Hunter-Gatherers were CHG-related.


If Crimea was inhabited by CHG-like foragers, then CHG admixture could enter the steppe from there.

I already saw the video from Survive the Jive. I am talking about the southern ancestry itself, not about PIE Urheimat this a another issue, but he(STJ) doesn't give any real argument for a source from the northern Caucasus he just says that it is very old, that we already know.

David Anthony says the same in the video I posted (6500-6000BC), maybe i should have added a time period for the arrival in the Volga Delta but my focus was the location of the southern ancestry.

I think Crimea HGs are a good candidate for something related to Ukraine_N but with more EHG.

[Bekas]

Here it is explained why northern Caucasus must be the source:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48bhkOiEuA&t=2098s

Neo-nazi youtubers as a source for academic dispute?

[Anfänger]

I have added a time period for the population i am searching for. In addition the CHG/Iran ghost most likely weren't fully farmers but still HG. So much for the sake of being complete.

[Tomenable]

Neo-nazi youtubers as a source for academic dispute?

He is not Ukrainian.


But seriously - in your opinion "southern supremacists" are any better than "northern supremacists" ???


Some among the supporters of "southern" origins of PIE are clearly supremacists of their own type (I'm not saying all of them).

Basically what southern supremacists are trying to say, is that Eastern Europeans are inferior and PIE could not originate there.

[Bekas]

He is not Ukrainian.


But seriously - in your opinion "southern supremacists" are any better than "northern supremacists" ???


Some among the supporters of "southern" origins of PIE are clearly supremacists of their own type (I'm not saying all of them).

Basically what southern supremacists are trying to say, is that Eastern Europeans are inferior and PIE could not originate there.

You referenced the neo-nazi youtuber, the OP referenced academic sources, so what are you on about, mate?

[Anfänger]

He is not Ukrainian.


But seriously - in your opinion "southern supremacists" are any better than "northern supremacists" ???


Some among the supporters of "southern" origins of PIE are clearly supremacists of their own type (I'm not saying all of them).

Basically what southern supremacists are trying to say, is that Eastern Europeans are inferior and PIE could not originate there.

Are you implying that I am supremacist of any sort because I am interested in solving the CHG question ? David Anthony then also has to be "southern supremacists" by that logic.

[firetown]

We know from various studies that Yamnaya/Corded ware and Eneolithic Steppe(Progress/Vonyuchka) have a significant amount of southern ancestry, right now called CHG or CHG/Iran but we still don't know where it is exactly from. There are many suggestions, I try to summarize the two main hypothesis that are up to debate.

1.Some argue that the southern ancestry is from the NORTHERN Caucasus and that it mixed with a northern source most closely related to EHGs in the Mesolithic to form the typical steppe ancestry profile of the various steppe groups. Actually this is the hypothesis Davidski and his crowd is favoring.

2.Others argue that the southern ancestry is from the SOUTHERN Caucasus and it moved north where it mixed with a northern source(EHG-related) ON the Pontic-caspian steppe to form the famous steppe ancestry. Actually this is the hypothesis I favour.

Here I want to present some arguments for a southern homeland for CHG/Iran of steppe ancestry:

-The autosomal breakdown of the southern ancestry of Eneolithic Steppe(simulated) looks like this:

Bildschirmfoto 2022-03-25 um 17.09.21.png

We can see that it is very much like hunter-gatherers from modern day Georgia(kotias) BUT it has a significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N. These three populations probably aren't the real sources because the distance is pretty high, but they give us a hint. So how likely is it that a population living north of the caucasus has significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N ? I think the answer is clear, there is zero chance for population with this autosomal breakdown to live just north of Kotias and Satsurblia(CHG).

- We can also observe the same position for this southern ancestry on a PCA:

Unknown.jpg

We see a shift of the southern ancestry (ProgressCHG) towards Iran_N (Ganj_Dareh) and away from CHG(Kotias), also it has a minor shift towards Anatolian_N(Tepecik Ciftlik_N). Interestingly, the southern ancestry is exactly between Iran_Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik_N, with a stronger shift towards Hotu though. Maybe the population we are searching for lived just between Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik? Anyway, nothing indicates a population just north of CHG, the Caucasus.

- Now let's see what David Anthony has to say about the southern ancestry:



The highest amount of southern ancestry is in Berezhnovka just north of the Volga Delta/Estuary not from the northern Caucasus(Progress/Vonyuchka). David Anthony thinks that there was population with "pure" southern ancestry in the Volga Delta/Estuary, this might be true, but we need samples from there to prove it like he also says. Luckily, we know from the Patterson et al. 2022 preprint that the mixture between a southern and northern source population happened at about 4400BC. So it didn't happened in the Mesolithic like Davidski assumed. I think we can also exclude the southern Caucasus for this mixture event if it happened at about 4400BC because there was too much Anatolian_N in the southern Caucasus in this time period to be the source. The mixture must have happened ON the steppe for the most part.

All these taking together I think we can exclude the first hypothesis favoured by Davidski and his crowd. Personally, i think the best place for this southern ancestry has to be Eastern Turkey/Northern Iran/Armenia/Azerbaijan, before roughly 6500 BC of course.

This clown missed out on mentioning the Dnieper-Donets ancestry among the Yamnaya and the significance thereof. Why even post that video?

[Anfänger]

This clown missed out on mentioning the Dnieper-Donets ancestry among the Yamnaya and the significance thereof. Why even post that video?

I am not sure if i understand you correctly but this video isn't about Yamnaya, it is about the source of the CHG ancestry and the HGs living in the Volga Delta at about 6200BC. David Anthony works with the Reich lab and probably has seen way more samples than anyone of us.

Anyway, how much Dnieper-Donets ancestry does Yamnaya get ? I know that Yamnaya barely has any WHG while Dnieper-Donets must have plenty of it. Can you show me a model ?

[Tomenable]

David Anthony then also has to be "southern supremacists" by that logic.

And that's why he was quoted in Survive the Jive's video ??? A "neo-nazi" quoting a "southern supremacist"?

[Tomenable]

You referenced the neo-nazi youtuber

He is a neo-nazi only in your mind. Just like Ukrainians are neo-nazis and Ukraine needs "denazification" only in Putin's deranged mind.

Maybe the Pontic-Caspian Steppe needs denazification because it largely overlaps with present-day Ukraine?

[Tomenable]

I suspect that calling people names like "neo-nazi" will become less frequent after this war.

Russian propaganda kind of ruined it for the leftists and discredited people using the term. Basically if you have a different opinion and don't want to be part of Mother Russia or don't believe in "out of Anatolia / Iran" theory of PIE origins, you are a "neo-nazi" these days.

[Anfänger]

And that's why he was quoted in Survive the Jive's video ??? A "neo-nazi" quoting a "southern supremacist"?

David Anthony actually says the same thing I am saying. A population very rich in CHG left the Caucasus and moved north into the Volga Delta. Just north the Delta it mixed with EHGs ON the steppe to form "steppe ancestry". That's why I wrote BY THE same logic he has to be a "southern supremacist" .

Guys, actually I thought someone is going to refute my Model, PCA or the logic behind my arguments. Why are you so emotional about this topic ?

[Bekas]

He is a neo-nazi only in your mind. Just like Ukrainians are neo-nazis and Ukraine needs "denazification" only in Putin's deranged mind.

Sounds to me you're the typical neo-nazi apologist.

[Tomenable]

^^^
So because he showed horses with swastikas painted on them, you call him a neo-nazi? Do you know that swastika is a very ancient symbol?

Indeed the swastika symbol was discredited by Hitler just like the "neo-nazi" slur is being discredited by Putin.

Imagine if Nazi Germany had chosen another symbol for itself nobody would be outraged by swastikas today.

[Tomenable]

Germans are mostly R1b and the Aryans who invaded India were mostly R1a and autosomally more closely related to Slavs than to Germans.


Nazi Germans calling themselves Aryans while genociding supposedly non-Aryan R1a Slavs during WW2 was not exactly historically accurate.

And now you are calling people Nazis because they believe that the Aryan invasion of India took place, duh...

[johen]

David Anthony actually says the same thing I am saying. A population very rich in CHG left the Caucasus and moved north into the Volga Delta. Just north the Delta it mixed with EHGs ON the steppe to form "steppe ancestry".

Do you know what archaeological factor made him think that way?
This subject already discussed here and in the other forums a few years ago as I remembered. I already quoted that Ural east had contacted Caspian sea south east from mesolithic to eneolithic thru archaeological data. That is why I always think that sintashata culture appeared over there. (It is not a revolution from west migration at all.) So it is possible CHG migrated from south Caucaus as you said.

And I do not agree that EHG met CHG met Volga river b/c EHG culture is different from the eneolithic culture like Khvalynsk, SS and Yamna. EHG R1a with mtDNA C buried in supine position while the eneolithic people died with supine-flex legged position like lake baikal and american indian:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...033#post644033 (post 112)

It means they all are foreigners. Moreover yamna has also sky god concept of altai and maya:




https://www.academia.edu/37259536/TH...N_3200_1750_BC

MEXICO CITY—Archaeologists in southern Mexico announced Monday they have discovered a 2,700-year-old tomb of a dignitary inside a pyramid that may be the oldest such burial documented in Mesoamerica.
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...rn_mexico.html

[Tomenable]

Now imagine such tall muscular guys rowing a boat (instead of riding a chariot), killing a skinny dark-haired guy.

And the video called "Viking Invasion of Britain: Myth or Reality?"

Would you also call the author a neo-Nazi, or are you a hypocrite?

[EV13SON]

Hitler and his crazed ultra nationalist kind of soiled the term "Aryan" in the west and maligned the "Swatsika" when they went on their ethnic cleansing campaign in Europe, it's going to take time to study academically without ruffling feathers...I'm all for studying human migrations and the different contributions they've made to society and culture, but can we get past the stereotype that all Aryans resembled the Techno Viking? I'm sure the majority probably resembled these guys...

[Anfänger]

Do you know what archaeological factor made him think that way?
This subject already discussed here and in the other forums a few years ago as I remembered. I already quoted that Ural east had contacted Caspian sea south east from mesolithic to eneolithic thru archaeological data. That is why I always think that sintashata culture appeared over there. (It is not a revolution from west migration at all.) So it is possible CHG migrated from south Caucaus as you said.

And I do not agree that EHG met CHG met Volga river b/c EHG culture is different from the eneolithic culture like Khvalynsk, SS and Yamna. EHG R1a with mtDNA C buried in supine position while the eneolithic people died with supine-flex legged position like lake baikal and american indian:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...033#post644033 (post 112)...

I think he read all the Russian papers about the steppe region we don't have access to. I just posted one new paper about Khvalynsk written by David Anthony:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...he-Volga-River

[johen]

the Aryans who invaded India were mostly R1a and autosomally more closely related to Slavs

Genome doesn't have legs. Its legs is archaeology. Archaeologically steppe cultures at bronze are not connected to India. Hindu culture is snake, snake and snake culture:

"Snakes, nagas, have high status in Hindu mythology. Nāga (Sanskrit:नाग) is the Sanskrit and Pāli word for a deity or class of entity or being, taking the form of a very large snake, found in Hinduism and Buddhism. The use of the term nāga is often ambiguous, as the word may also refer, in similar contexts, to one of several human tribes known as or nicknamed Nāgas; to elephants; and to ordinary snakes, particularly the Ophiophagus hannah, the Ptyas mucosa and the Naja naja, the latter of which is still called nāg in Hindi and other languages of India. A female nāga is a nāgīn. The snake primarily represents rebirth, death and mortality, due to its casting of its skin and being symbolically "reborn". Over a large part of India there are carved representations of cobras or nagas or stones as substitutes. To these human food and flowers are offered and lights are burned before the shrines."


However any scholars do not mention snake regarding andronovo/sintashata/yamna/afanasievo. Moreover andronovo did not reach india. So I think Indian people R1a and their steppe admixture could originate in scythian and other steppe people who resided long time in india north.
Regarding aryan, Sanauli culture should be reconsidered. I think they have lots of altai culture.
Quijia culture in tarim where seima turbino reached:

sanauli triangle patterns:

another Quijia culture mirror with the same triangle patterns:


Sanauli comb




Macro-regional interconnections among ancient hunter-gatherers of the Cis-Baikal, Eastern Siberia



India copper hoard Y crown (up) and Y sword (down)(2,000 -1,500bc)

[Tomenable]

^^^ So you believe in the Out-of-India theory or what is your point ???

Obviously when Indo-Europeans came to India and mixed with pre-IE locals, they adopted also elements of local culture.

Or maybe they just developed a snake culture after immigrating from the Steppe to new areas, with a lot of snakes.


I remember Davidski wrote about parallels between archeological context of a kurgan grave of an R1a-Z93 man in East European Steppe, and the same cultural practices described in the Rig Veda. But I can't find that blog post now (I also quoted it on some forum, but I can't find my old post).

[EV13SON]

Well I am interested in all this only because I have ties to the areas...of course the wheel didn't make it to the Americas...

[Tomenable]

Well I am interested in all this only because I have ties to the areas...of course the wheel didn't make it to the Americas...

^^^
What do you score in my calculator (if you have G25 coordinates)?:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...G25-calculator