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    Southern Ancestry in "Steppe"

    We know from various studies that Yamnaya/Corded ware and Eneolithic Steppe(Progress/Vonyuchka) have a significant amount of southern ancestry, right now called CHG or CHG/Iran but we still don't know where it is exactly from. There are many suggestions, I try to summarize the two main hypothesis that are up to debate.

    1.Some argue that the southern ancestry is from the NORTHERN Caucasus and that it mixed with a northern source most closely related to EHGs in the Mesolithic to form the typical steppe ancestry profile of the various steppe groups. Actually this is the hypothesis Davidski and his crowd is favoring.

    2.Others argue that the southern ancestry is from the SOUTHERN Caucasus and it moved north where it mixed with a northern source(EHG-related) ON the Pontic-caspian steppe to form the famous steppe ancestry. Actually this is the hypothesis I favour.

    Here I want to present some arguments for a southern homeland for CHG/Iran of steppe ancestry:

    -The autosomal breakdown of the southern ancestry of Eneolithic Steppe(simulated) looks like this:

    Bildschirmfoto 2022-03-25 um 17.09.21.png

    We can see that it is very much like hunter-gatherers from modern day Georgia(kotias) BUT it has a significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N. These three populations probably aren't the real sources because the distance is pretty high, but they give us a hint. So how likely is it that a population living north of the caucasus has significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N ? I think the answer is clear, there is zero chance for population with this autosomal breakdown to live just north of Kotias and Satsurblia(CHG).

    - We can also observe the same position for this southern ancestry on a PCA:

    Unknown.jpg

    We see a shift of the southern ancestry (ProgressCHG) towards Iran_N (Ganj_Dareh) and away from CHG(Kotias), also it has a minor shift towards Anatolian_N(Tepecik Ciftlik_N). Interestingly, the southern ancestry is exactly between Iran_Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik_N, with a stronger shift towards Hotu though. Maybe the population we are searching for lived just between Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik? Anyway, nothing indicates a population just north of CHG, the Caucasus.

    - Here are the original (not simulated) samples from the Eneolithic Steppe:

    Bildschirmfoto 2022-04-01 um 12.33.34.png

    Vonyuchka has close to double the amount of Iran_N than Progress. Let´s exclude the EHG-related signal and calculate the amount of Iran_N the southern ancestry of Vonyuchka might have.
    Simple math: 14/40,5=0,345=34,5%

    So, it's 34,5% Iran_N and maybe including some traces of Anatolian_N.
    The southern ancestry of Vonyuchka is approximately: 65,5(CHG)+34.5%(Iran_N)

    - Now let's see what David Anthony has to say about the southern ancestry:



    The highest amount of southern ancestry is in Berezhnovka just north of the Volga Delta/Estuary not from the northern Caucasus(Progress/Vonyuchka). David Anthony thinks that there was population with "pure" southern ancestry in the Volga Delta/Estuary, this might be true, but we need samples from there to prove it like he also says. Luckily, we know from the Patterson et al. 2022 preprint that the mixture between a southern and northern source population happened at about 4400BC*. So it didn't happened in the Mesolithic like Davidski assumed. I think we can also exclude the southern Caucasus for this mixture event if it happened at about 4400BC because there was too much Anatolian_N in the southern Caucasus in this time period to be the source. The mixture must have happened ON the steppe for the most part.

    All these taking together I think we can exclude the first hypothesis favoured by Davidski and his crowd. Personally, i think the best place for this southern ancestry has to be Eastern Turkey/Northern Iran/Armenia/Azerbaijan, before roughly 6500 BC of course.

    Edit: *It seems like people on AG refuted the Date of roughly 4400BC from the Patterson et al. 2022 preprint. I will update this part if the paper is peer-reviewed and a new date is proposed.
    Last edited by Anfänger; 02-04-22 at 13:32.

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    Here it is explained why northern Caucasus must be the source:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48bhkOiEuA&t=2098s


    ^^^
    David Anthony is talking about this issue in this video as well.


    He says:


    "They have to have gotten into the steppes from the Caucasus before 6500-6000 BC" - says Anthony.


    BTW - I wonder if Crimean Hunter-Gatherers were CHG-related.


    If Crimea was inhabited by CHG-like foragers, then CHG admixture could enter the steppe from there.
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Here it is explained why northern Caucasus must be the source:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48bhkOiEuA&t=2098s


    ^^^
    David Anthony is talking about this issue in this video as well.


    He says:


    "They have to have gotten into the steppes from the Caucasus before 6500-6000 BC" - says Anthony.


    BTW - I wonder if Crimean Hunter-Gatherers were CHG-related.


    If Crimea was inhabited by CHG-like foragers, then CHG admixture could enter the steppe from there.
    I already saw the video from Survive the Jive. I am talking about the southern ancestry itself, not about PIE Urheimat this a another issue, but he(STJ) doesn't give any real argument for a source from the northern Caucasus he just says that it is very old, that we already know.

    David Anthony says the same in the video I posted (6500-6000BC), maybe i should have added a time period for the arrival in the Volga Delta but my focus was the location of the southern ancestry.

    I think Crimea HGs are a good candidate for something related to Ukraine_N but with more EHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Here it is explained why northern Caucasus must be the source:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48bhkOiEuA&t=2098s

    Neo-nazi youtubers as a source for academic dispute?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    Neo-nazi youtubers as a source for academic dispute?
    He is not Ukrainian.


    But seriously - in your opinion "southern supremacists" are any better than "northern supremacists" ???


    Some among the supporters of "southern" origins of PIE are clearly supremacists of their own type (I'm not saying all of them).

    Basically what southern supremacists are trying to say, is that Eastern Europeans are inferior and PIE could not originate there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    He is not Ukrainian.


    But seriously - in your opinion "southern supremacists" are any better than "northern supremacists" ???


    Some among the supporters of "southern" origins of PIE are clearly supremacists of their own type (I'm not saying all of them).

    Basically what southern supremacists are trying to say, is that Eastern Europeans are inferior and PIE could not originate there.

    You referenced the neo-nazi youtuber, the OP referenced academic sources, so what are you on about, mate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    You referenced the neo-nazi youtuber
    He is a neo-nazi only in your mind. Just like Ukrainians are neo-nazis and Ukraine needs "denazification" only in Putin's deranged mind.

    Maybe the Pontic-Caspian Steppe needs denazification because it largely overlaps with present-day Ukraine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    You referenced the neo-nazi youtuber, the OP referenced academic sources, so what are you on about, mate?
    STJ is not a "Neo-Nazi" In fact, his views are probably rather tame compared to what 90% of the men who fought the Nazis believed. Not everyone you disagree with is literally hitler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    He is not Ukrainian.


    But seriously - in your opinion "southern supremacists" are any better than "northern supremacists" ???


    Some among the supporters of "southern" origins of PIE are clearly supremacists of their own type (I'm not saying all of them).

    Basically what southern supremacists are trying to say, is that Eastern Europeans are inferior and PIE could not originate there.
    Are you implying that I am supremacist of any sort because I am interested in solving the CHG question ? David Anthony then also has to be "southern supremacists" by that logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    David Anthony then also has to be "southern supremacists" by that logic.
    And that's why he was quoted in Survive the Jive's video ??? A "neo-nazi" quoting a "southern supremacist"?

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    I have added a time period for the population i am searching for. In addition the CHG/Iran ghost most likely weren't fully farmers but still HG. So much for the sake of being complete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    We know from various studies that Yamnaya/Corded ware and Eneolithic Steppe(Progress/Vonyuchka) have a significant amount of southern ancestry, right now called CHG or CHG/Iran but we still don't know where it is exactly from. There are many suggestions, I try to summarize the two main hypothesis that are up to debate.

    1.Some argue that the southern ancestry is from the NORTHERN Caucasus and that it mixed with a northern source most closely related to EHGs in the Mesolithic to form the typical steppe ancestry profile of the various steppe groups. Actually this is the hypothesis Davidski and his crowd is favoring.

    2.Others argue that the southern ancestry is from the SOUTHERN Caucasus and it moved north where it mixed with a northern source(EHG-related) ON the Pontic-caspian steppe to form the famous steppe ancestry. Actually this is the hypothesis I favour.

    Here I want to present some arguments for a southern homeland for CHG/Iran of steppe ancestry:

    -The autosomal breakdown of the southern ancestry of Eneolithic Steppe(simulated) looks like this:

    Bildschirmfoto 2022-03-25 um 17.09.21.png

    We can see that it is very much like hunter-gatherers from modern day Georgia(kotias) BUT it has a significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N. These three populations probably aren't the real sources because the distance is pretty high, but they give us a hint. So how likely is it that a population living north of the caucasus has significant amount of Iran_N and minor Anatolian_N ? I think the answer is clear, there is zero chance for population with this autosomal breakdown to live just north of Kotias and Satsurblia(CHG).

    - We can also observe the same position for this southern ancestry on a PCA:

    Unknown.jpg

    We see a shift of the southern ancestry (ProgressCHG) towards Iran_N (Ganj_Dareh) and away from CHG(Kotias), also it has a minor shift towards Anatolian_N(Tepecik Ciftlik_N). Interestingly, the southern ancestry is exactly between Iran_Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik_N, with a stronger shift towards Hotu though. Maybe the population we are searching for lived just between Hotu and Tepecik Ciftlik? Anyway, nothing indicates a population just north of CHG, the Caucasus.

    - Now let's see what David Anthony has to say about the southern ancestry:



    The highest amount of southern ancestry is in Berezhnovka just north of the Volga Delta/Estuary not from the northern Caucasus(Progress/Vonyuchka). David Anthony thinks that there was population with "pure" southern ancestry in the Volga Delta/Estuary, this might be true, but we need samples from there to prove it like he also says. Luckily, we know from the Patterson et al. 2022 preprint that the mixture between a southern and northern source population happened at about 4400BC. So it didn't happened in the Mesolithic like Davidski assumed. I think we can also exclude the southern Caucasus for this mixture event if it happened at about 4400BC because there was too much Anatolian_N in the southern Caucasus in this time period to be the source. The mixture must have happened ON the steppe for the most part.

    All these taking together I think we can exclude the first hypothesis favoured by Davidski and his crowd. Personally, i think the best place for this southern ancestry has to be Eastern Turkey/Northern Iran/Armenia/Azerbaijan, before roughly 6500 BC of course.
    This clown missed out on mentioning the Dnieper-Donets ancestry among the Yamnaya and the significance thereof. Why even post that video?

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    This clown missed out on mentioning the Dnieper-Donets ancestry among the Yamnaya and the significance thereof. Why even post that video?
    I am not sure if i understand you correctly but this video isn't about Yamnaya, it is about the source of the CHG ancestry and the HGs living in the Volga Delta at about 6200BC. David Anthony works with the Reich lab and probably has seen way more samples than anyone of us.

    Anyway, how much Dnieper-Donets ancestry does Yamnaya get ? I know that Yamnaya barely has any WHG while Dnieper-Donets must have plenty of it. Can you show me a model ?

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    I suspect that calling people names like "neo-nazi" will become less frequent after this war.

    Russian propaganda kind of ruined it for the leftists and discredited people using the term. Basically if you have a different opinion and don't want to be part of Mother Russia or don't believe in "out of Anatolia / Iran" theory of PIE origins, you are a "neo-nazi" these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Basically if you have a different opinion and don't want to be part of Mother Russia or don't believe in "out of Anatolia / Iran" theory of PIE origins, you are a "neo-nazi" these days.
    I was just discussing the same issue but with the OOA hypothesis and Eurasia.
    People get mad when you point out that we may come from X, but the population we're talking about is actually from other place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I suspect that calling people names like "neo-nazi" will become less frequent after this war.
    Russian propaganda kind of ruined it for the leftists and discredited people using the term. Basically if you have a different opinion and don't want to be part of Mother Russia or don't believe in "out of Anatolia / Iran" theory of PIE origins, you are a "neo-nazi" these days.
    I actually do not understand what you mean here. ACTUAL nazis were a mix of EHG, CHG WHG, and Anatolian_N. Infact, as I pointed out previously, Western Europeans, like English and French, who were "Ayrans", were predominantly Anatolian_N. The place in European where Anatolian_N is small component is Eastern European, and the Nazis wanted to exterminate them

    Anyway, I think it is dumb, as were the Nazis. I am not attacking you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I actually do not understand what you mean here. ACTUAL nazis were a mix of EHG, CHG WHG, and Anatolian_N. Infact, as I pointed out previously, Western Europeans, like English and French, who were "Ayrans", were predominantly Anatolian_N. The place in European where Anatolian_N is small component is Eastern European, and the Nazis wanted to exterminate them
    Anyway, I think it is dumb, as were the Nazis. I am not attacking you.
    At any rate, they only cared about phenotypes, which is all they could go by. The Yamnaya were darker than modern Europeans. Ironically had the steppe people been brought to Nazi Germany in a time machine, they would have been discriminated against by their mixed descendants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Western Europeans, like English and French, who were "Ayrans", were predominantly Anatolian_N
    But calling Western Europeans "Aryans" and calling Slavs "Non-Aryans" was a Nazi falsification of (pre)history.
    Slavic peoples are more closely related to the actual Aryans (Proto-Aryans) than most of Western Europeans.
    Proto-Aryans and Proto-Balto-Slavs both spoke Satem languages not Kentum, and both carried R1a not R1b.

    Besides I don't think that the English or Northern French are more Anatolian_N than they are Steppe + WHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But calling Western Europeans "Aryans" and calling Slavs "Non-Aryans" was a Nazi falsification of (pre)history.
    Slavic peoples are more closely related to the actual Aryans (Proto-Aryans) than most of Western Europeans.
    Proto-Aryans and Proto-Balto-Slavs both spoke Satem languages not Kentum, and both carried R1a not R1b.

    Besides I don't think that the English or Northern French are more Anatolian_N than they are Steppe + WHG.
    Take a look at the chart from the study:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5

    French and English are predominantly LBK.

    Also that doesn't matter, had the Nazis known about genetics they would adjust the propaganda to still place them in a position of superiority, and still commit genocide in the east for living space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But calling Western Europeans "Aryans" and calling Slavs "Non-Aryans" was a Nazi falsification of (pre)history.
    Slavic peoples are more closely related to the actual Aryans (Proto-Aryans) than most of Western Europeans.
    Proto-Aryans and Proto-Balto-Slavs both spoke Satem languages not Kentum, and both carried R1a not R1b.
    Besides I don't think that the English or Northern French are more Anatolian_N than they are Steppe + WHG.
    If you look at all the great Empires of history; the Greeks, the Romans, the Spanish, the French, the British, the United States. All of them were composed of people who were predominantly Anatolian_N. Consider the treatment of the Irish and Scotish at the hands of the English, who had less steppe.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 24-04-22 at 14:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    If you look at all the great Empires of history; the Greeks, the Romans, the Spanish, the French, the British, the United States. All of them were composed of people who were predominantly Anatolian_N. Consider the treatment of the Irish and Scotish at the hands of the British, who had less steppe.
    At the hands of the "English" not "British" (which includes English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish).
    Otherwise you make a valid point about the strength of Anatolian_N people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I actually do not understand what you mean here. ACTUAL nazis were a mix of EHG, CHG WHG, and Anatolian_N. Infact, as I pointed out previously, Western Europeans, like English and French, who were "Ayrans", were predominantly Anatolian_N. The place in European where Anatolian_N is small component is Eastern European, and the Nazis wanted to exterminate them
    Anyway, I think it is dumb, as were the Nazis. I am not attacking you.
    The NAZI Aryan theory was based on weird occult theories, especially framed by Herman Wirth:

    Wirth claimed that civilization is a curse that only a simpler way of life, as documented in archaeological findings and historical records, could lift. He has been criticized for romantic nationalism and Germanomania.[6] He was also criticized by German scholars of his time, like Bolko von Richthofen, Gerhard Gloege, Arthur Hübner and Karl Hermann Jacob-Friesen [de], for "gullibly refusing to accept" the evidence that proved Ura Linda chronicle (a 6th–1st century BC chronicle of a Frisian family that he translated) a forgery.[7]


    Wirth placed the origins of European civilization on the mythological island of Atlantis, which he thought had been located in the North Atlantic, connecting North America and Europe. Its inhabitants supposedly were pure Aryans, influencing the cultures not just of Europeans but also of the natives of North America and the wider "Old World" beyond Europe. According to Wirth, these Atlanteans worshipped a single deity whose aspect changed with the seasons and its son, the Heilsbringer. In their religion, priestesses played a key role. Wirth thought that both the Jewish and the Christian faith were perversions of this original religion. He considered himself a symbologist and thought the Germanic people to be direct descendants of these inhabitants of Atlantis. Researching the Germanic culture thus was a way of reconstructing the original culture of the ancients. All of this research was considered explicitly political as well as religious.[1]
    IMO all esoteric bullshit. Nevertheless it caused for example the holocaust.

    This 'Aryan type' was connected to the old classifiers Deniker, Eickstedt...Coon you name it with a 'Nordid' phenotype, blond, light pigmented dolio's. Those classifiers had mostly a racial biased agenda....

    I guess Northwest Europeans are basically (muted) Bell Beakers. They had their cradle in the Rhine Delta, and spread all over the NW European place the Isles included. They were more than 50% Steppe and with a considerable amount of EEF and HG. Probably due to the mixture of Single Grave People that went about 2850 BC from central Europe to the North Sea and Rhine Delta were they met and mixed with the Funnelbeakers/ Michelsberg people. They were in some regions pretty high in HG (see Blatterhöhle MN). Later on migrations probably enhanced the neolithic factor somewhat in some regions of NW Europe.

    By the way those BB were not conform the 'Aryan' ideal type; they were brachycephalic and steephead (and like the Steppe types as a whole not per se blond blue eyed). Like some of their heirs that lived from Northern Germany/ North Dutch to Norway, but they didn't fit in the 'desired' Aryan picture of the racial classifiers.

    Ok and about the claim of the Nazi's with regard to the Roman heritage. It's indeed like you said, they had a fascination for empires. And don't forget already Charles the Great claimed to Roman heritage already. Important Frankish/Rhineland cities like Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium (aka Cologne) and Aquae Granni (aka Aachen) Mogontiacum (aka Mainz) had a Roman blueprint. That's way they claimed "das dritte Reich".
    Last edited by Northener; 24-04-22 at 16:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    The NAZI Aryan theory was based on weird occult theories, especially framed by Herman Wirth:



    IMO all esoteric bullshit. Nevertheless it caused for example the holocaust.

    This 'Aryan type' was connected to the old classifiers Deniker, Eickstedt...Coon you name it with a 'Nordid' phenotype, blond, light pigmented dolio's. Those classifiers had mostly a racial biased agenda....

    I guess Northwest Europeans are basically (muted) Bell Beakers. They had their cradle in the Rhine Delta, and spread all over the NW European place the Isles included. They were more than 50% Steppe and with a considerable amount of EEF and HG. Probably due to the mixture of Single Grave People that went about 2850 BC from central Europe to the North Sea and Rhine Delta were the met and mixed with the Funnelbeakers/ Michelberg people. They were in some regions pretty high in HG (see Blatterhöhle MN). Later on migrations probably enhanced the neolithic factor somewhat in some regions of NW Europe.

    By the way those BB were not conform the 'Aryan' ideal type; they were brachycephalic and steephead (and like the Steppe types as a whole not per se blond blue eyed). Like some of their heirs that lived from Northern Germany/ North Dutch to Norway, but they didn't fit in the 'desired' Aryan picture of the racial classifiers.

    Ok and about the claim of the Nazi's with regard to the Roman heritage. It's indeed like you said, they had a fascination for empires. And don't forget already Charles the Great claimed to Roman heritage already. Important Frankish/Rhineland cities like Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium (aka Cologne) and Aquae Granni (aka Aachen) Mogontiacum (aka Mainz) had a Roman blueprint. That's way they claimed "das dritte Reich".
    It is indeed bullshit, it is basically like debating the high-fantasy at this point. They didn't have what we have today, and they were guided by a clear bias. I know there were other competing theories. I recall from a program I saw, the Aryan steppe theory became prominent after some theory with Pagan trees became unviable. There's also the theory they Aryan race came from an ice ball from outer-space. That sort of reminds me of the panspermia hypothesis, of tardigrades seeding life on plants. At any rate, let us get back on topic of Southern Ancestry in Steppe.

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    ^^^
    So because he showed horses with swastikas painted on them, you call him a neo-nazi? Do you know that swastika is a very ancient symbol?

    Indeed the swastika symbol was discredited by Hitler just like the "neo-nazi" slur is being discredited by Putin.

    Imagine if Nazi Germany had chosen another symbol for itself nobody would be outraged by swastikas today.

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    Germans are mostly R1b and the Aryans who invaded India were mostly R1a and autosomally more closely related to Slavs than to Germans.


    Nazi Germans calling themselves Aryans while genociding supposedly non-Aryan R1a Slavs during WW2 was not exactly historically accurate.

    And now you are calling people Nazis because they believe that the Aryan invasion of India took place, duh...

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