FTNDA Big Y DNA and current Kit

P

Palermo Trapani

Regular Member
Messages
1,651
Reaction score
917
Points
113
Ethnic group
Italian-Sicily-South
Y-DNA haplogroup
I2-M223>I-Y5362
mtDNA haplogroup
H2A3
Good evening:

I have some questions about FTDNA Y DNA Big Y. I uploaded my Ancestry DNA and have a kit number there as I found out here FTDNA has a good 3 factor model for estimating European HG, Neolithic Early European Farmer and Steppe ancestry. I see on my account that it states I have some add-ons and uploads that are available for this Kit, including Big Y DNA. It then states these add-ons and updates are not available if your sample is no longer viable or you uploaded it (which I did).

So my question is If I purchase Big Y DNA from FTNDA, must I also buy an autosomal test with them as well or Can I buy Big Y DNA and use it as an add-on to my current Kit (which is my Ancestry DNA that I uploaded). Anyone familiar with FTDNA with some thoughts on this is greatly appreciated.

Cheers, PT
 
The Big Y-700 is a stand-alone test. It is entirely separate from and won't add anything to your Autosomal or mtDNA results. It is currently on sale for $379 (reg. $449, so a $70 saving) through April 25th. https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna. Only males can take a Y-DNA test, in that the Y-chromosome is passed down from father to son. Females can recruit a close male relative (father, brother, paternal uncle, etc.) to take the test.

It includes the Y-37, Y-67, and Y-111 tests, but tests for a total of 700 STRs (111 + 589) and close to a million SNPs. I originally did the Y-37 test, which gave me an HG haplogroup, I-M223, which took me back to the Paleolithic, but brought me no closer to the present than 13,000 years ago. I got 11 Y-37 matches, which didn't really tell me very much.

When I did the Big Y test, the Y-67 and Y-111 results came in first, but gave me ZERO new matches. When the rest of the Big Y-700 results finally came in, I had 116 Big Y matches. and I-Y31616 as my confirmed haplogroup (in the Isles Scot-Ire clade of I2a). I now have 139 Big Y matches - as more people test, more people match you. One tester matched one of my private SNPs, forming a new haplogroup/branch on the global haplotree: I-FT435332. (500-600 years ago).

For me, paying for the Y-111 test would have been a complete waste of money. Not everyone will get 116 or 139 matches, however. It depends on how many others have tested in your area of the tree. If not many, then you will have fewer matches. One person I know has only four matches. Others have more than 150.

Think of your family tree as the foreground and the Big Y as background, at least along one line (paternal Y-DNA). It can reveal ancestral migrations, in that they tend strongly toward being male-led, if not also male-biased.
 
CrazyDonkey said:
The Big Y-700 is a stand-alone test. It is entirely separate from and won't add anything to your Autosomal or mtDNA results. It is currently on sale for $379 (reg. $449, so a $70 saving) through April 25th. https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna. Only males can take a Y-DNA test, in that the Y-chromosome is passed down from father to son. Females can recruit a close male relative (father, brother, paternal uncle, etc.) to take the test.

It includes the Y-37, Y-67, and Y-111 tests, but tests for a total of 700 STRs (111 + 589) and close to a million SNPs. I originally did the Y-37 test, which gave me an HG haplogroup, I-M223, which took me back to the Paleolithic, but brought me no closer to the present than 13,000 years ago. I got 11 Y-37 matches, which didn't really tell me very much.

When I did the Big Y test, the Y-67 and Y-111 results came in first, but gave me ZERO new matches. When the rest of the Big Y-700 results finally came in, I had 116 Big Y matches. and I-Y31616 as my confirmed haplogroup (in the Isles Scot-Ire clade of I2a). I now have 139 Big Y matches - as more people test, more people match you. One tester matched one of my private SNPs, forming a new haplogroup/branch on the global haplotree: I-FT435332. (500-600 years ago).

For me, paying for the Y-111 test would have been a complete waste of money. Not everyone will get 116 or 139 matches, however. It depends on how many others have tested in your area of the tree. If not many, then you will have fewer matches. One person I know has only four matches. Others have more than 150.

Think of your family tree as the foreground and the Big Y as background, at least along one line (paternal Y-DNA). It can reveal ancestral migrations, in that they tend strongly toward being male-led, if not also male-biased.
Click to expand...

CrazyDonkey: Thanks for the response. Yes, I am aware only males can test with Big Y.(y)

So I don't need to buy FTDNA's autosomal test since it is as you state, a standalone test. Thus, I assume that I can use Y DNA trees and forums to talk to other people who share my I-M223 particular sub-clade.

Thanks again, Cheers.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
CrazyDonkey: Thanks for the response. Yes, I am aware only males can test with Big Y.(y)

So I don't need to buy FTDNA's autosomal test since it is as you state, a standalone test. Thus, I assume that I can use Y DNA trees and forums to talk to other people who share my I-M223 particular sub-clade.

Thanks again, Cheers.
Click to expand...

Yes, the main reason to do FTDNA's Autosomal and mtDNA tests is to find matches among FTDNA's database of testers. I didn't find them to be particularly helpful. YDNA is FTDNA's strong suit.

You can upload or create your family tree and agree to share it with others at FTDNA. You have access to the family trees of your matches, if they agree to share them. You also have access to your matches' details: name, e-mail address, paternal and maternal earliest known ancestor names, birth/death date/places, and country of origin. I had no luck contacting my Y-37 matches, but have struck up great conversations with many of my Big Y matches.

The I-M223 Y-DNA Haplogroup Project has over 5100 members and is very active. Members are grouped in the Data Results by most likely YDNA "clade". The moderators are well informed and helpful. I pretty much spend most of my time there. Many of the other Surname and Geographic projects are dominated by R1bs and aren't particularly interested in the I2as in their midst. Their Data Results can be helpful, however.
 
CrazyDonkey said:
Yes, the main reason to do FTDNA's Autosomal and mtDNA tests is to find matches among FTDNA's database of testers. I didn't find them to be particularly helpful. YDNA is FTDNA's strong suit.

You can upload or create your family tree and agree to share it with others at FTDNA. You have access to the family trees of your matches, if they agree to share them. You also have access to your matches' details: name, e-mail address, paternal and maternal earliest known ancestor names, birth/death date/places, and country of origin. I had no luck contacting my Y-37 matches, but have struck up great conversations with many of my Big Y matches.

The I-M223 Y-DNA Haplogroup Project has over 5100 members and is very active. Members are grouped in the Data Results by most likely YDNA "clade". The moderators are well informed and helpful. I pretty much spend most of my time there. Many of the other Surname and Geographic projects are dominated by R1bs and aren't particularly interested in the I2as in their midst. Their Data Results can be helpful, however.
Click to expand...

CrazyDonkey: Thanks for the information, seems like the I-M223 group is a good one at FTDNA to get involved with. The R1b's are not too interested in the I2a's in their midst, pretty funny.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
CrazyDonkey: Thanks for the information, seems like the I-M223 group is a good one at FTDNA to get involved with. The R1b's are not too interested in the I2a's in their midst, pretty funny.
Click to expand...

I have a very "Irish" surname (although I am only 13% Irish on the Autosomal), but have a lot of "Scottish" Big Y matches, including Islanders, Highlanders, Lowlanders, and Border Reivers. So, when I have occasion to go on some of the Scottish surname project "activity feeds", if I get snubbed, which can happen occasionally, I can never be sure if it is because I'm I2a or Irish (which I really am not)...

There looks to be a clutch of southern Italians at CC-Cont3a -1.1.1.1- M223>...>L702>S12991>P78>S25733>A427* (Group 1a1):

Bellisario-Kramm - Giovanni Bellisario,1886-1962, Naples, Italy A427
Gullo - Melchiore Gullo 1809 – 1872 (???) Caccamo, Sicily M223
Grimaldi - Antonio Grimaldi, b. 1588 and d. ? A427
Pellicciotto - Antonio Pilliciotto abt. 1550 Gessopalena, Abruzzo Italy A427

But also people from Russia, which could support the Norman/Scandinavian connection, in that "the Rus" were Vikings from Sweden.

 
CrazyDonkey said:
I have a very "Irish" surname (although I am only 13% Irish on the Autosomal), but have a lot of "Scottish" Big Y matches, including Islanders, Highlanders, Lowlanders, and Border Reivers. So, when I have occasion to go on some of the Scottish surname project "activity feeds", if I get snubbed, which can happen occasionally, I can never be sure if it is because I'm I2a or Irish (which I really am not)...

There looks to be a clutch of southern Italians at CC-Cont3a -1.1.1.1- M223>...>L702>S12991>P78>S25733>A427* (Group 1a1):

Bellisario-Kramm - Giovanni Bellisario,1886-1962, Naples, Italy A427
Gullo - Melchiore Gullo 1809 – 1872 (???) Caccamo, Sicily M223
Grimaldi - Antonio Grimaldi, b. 1588 and d. ? A427
Pellicciotto - Antonio Pilliciotto abt. 1550 Gessopalena, Abruzzo Italy A427

But also people from Russia, which could support the Norman/Scandinavian connection, in that "the Rus" were Vikings from Sweden.

Click to expand...

CrazyDonkey: Thanks for that information on Italy. Caccamo is on the Northern Coast of Palermo Province, it was as you hinted at a place where the Normans put up a fortress and Castle. The other places are interesting, Naples is where my family name originated from, although I have not been able to do any genealogy research beyond Civil records in Sicily to around 1810 AD. So the next stop would be Catholic Sacrament records for Baptisms, Matrimony, etc. which can date back to around 1550, which is contemporaneous with the Council of Trent which required records to be kept by all Bishops. That requirement can provide a great inventory of Church documents to use for research, assuming the local Bishop will allow you to use the Diocesan archives.

Back to the group of Southern Italians with I-M223. Per NAT GENO, P78 is a sub-clade I am part of. Per 23 Me V5, I am I-S23612 whose parent branch is I-A427. Interestingly, both of those are present in these other Southern Italians, 1 in Sicily, 1 in Naples, I in Abruzzo. Grimaldi I assume there is no region listed. Maciamo's article on I-M223 indicates that P78 split into 2 brances, I-A427 being one of them around 5,300 years ago with the Yamnaya culture. To be honest, first time I have really started to delve into Y DNA Haplogroup other than I am I-M223. Kind of interesting. Thanks again on that Information about the 4 Southern Italians.


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 
Palermo Trapani said:
CrazyDonkey: Thanks for that information on Italy. Caccamo is on the Northern Coast of Palermo Province, it was as you hinted at a place where the Normans put up a fortress and Castle. The other places are interesting, Naples is where my family name originated from, although I have not been able to do any genealogy research beyond Civil records in Sicily to around 1810 AD. So the next stop would be Catholic Sacrament records for Baptisms, Matrimony, etc. which can date back to around 1550, which is contemporaneous with the Council of Trent which required records to be kept by all Bishops. That requirement can provide a great inventory of Church documents to use for research, assuming the local Bishop will allow you to use the Diocesan archives.

Back to the group of Southern Italians with I-M223. Per NAT GENO, P78 is a sub-clade I am part of. Per 23 Me V5, I am I-S23612 whose parent branch is I-A427. Interestingly, both of those are present in these other Southern Italians, 1 in Sicily, 1 in Naples, I in Abruzzo. Grimaldi I assume there is no region listed. Maciamo's article on I-M223 indicates that P78 split into 2 brances, I-A427 being one of them around 5,300 years ago with the Yamnaya culture. To be honest, first time I have really started to delve into Y DNA Haplogroup other than I am I-M223. Kind of interesting. Thanks again on that Information about the 4 Southern Italians.
Click to expand...

There are a bunch of samples with Stewart/Steward/Stuart surnames at A427>S23897>S23612>Y5362>Y5360>Y5369. The surname came from Walter fitz Alan, a Norman noble who was the High Steward of Scotland under David I (c. 1084-1153). Seven Stuarts became Kings of England.

Your line and mine (Isles Scot-Ire) split at M223>P222>CTS616 (formed 12000ybp, TMRCA 10400ybp). CTS616 and L702, on your line, has been found in ancient samples in Ukraine and likely spread with the Yamnaya (mine may have gone there, but may not have come from there): https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient...column=Country&searchfor=Ukraine&ybp=500000,0

Your real haplogroup is probably a good deal further down the tree than S23612/Y4884 (formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp). To confirm where, you'll need to do the Big Y-700. If you match private SNPs with any of the southern Italians at A427, you'll create a new named branch on the Haplotree.
 
CrazyDonkey said:
There are a bunch of samples with Stewart/Steward/Stuart surnames at A427>S23897>S23612>Y5362>Y5360>Y5369. The surname came from Walter fitz Alan, a Norman noble who was the High Steward of Scotland under David I (c. 1084-1153). Seven Stuarts became Kings of England.

Your line and mine (Isles Scot-Ire) split at M223>P222>CTS616 (formed 12000ybp, TMRCA 10400ybp). CTS616 and L702, on your line, has been found in ancient samples in Ukraine and likely spread with the Yamnaya (mine may have gone there, but may not have come from there): https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient...column=Country&searchfor=Ukraine&ybp=500000,0

Your real haplogroup is probably a good deal further down the tree than S23612/Y4884 (formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp). To confirm where, you'll need to do the Big Y-700. If you match private SNPs with any of the southern Italians at A427, you'll create a new named branch on the Haplotree.
Click to expand...

CrazyDonkey: Many thanks for those comments. Some good information.

My personal mythology:bigsmile: is that some paternal ancestor of PalermoTrapani was I-M223 somewhere on the Italian mainland or Sicily back then and subsequently sort of left the nice weather of the Med and moved back maybe to Central-East Europe as Ice melted there about 17K years ago. As you note, was impacted by the Yamnaya but they they decided to head back to Italy and eventually wind up in Trapani Province Sicily. Well, if that mythology is not true, it ought to be!!!!!!
 
Palermo Trapani said:
CrazyDonkey: Many thanks for those comments. Some good information.

My personal mythology:bigsmile: is that some paternal ancestor of PalermoTrapani was I-M223 somewhere on the Italian mainland or Sicily back then and subsequently sort of left the nice weather of the Med and moved back maybe to Central-East Europe as Ice melted there about 17K years ago. As you note, was impacted by the Yamnaya but they they decided to head back to Italy and eventually wind up in Trapani Province Sicily. Well, if that mythology is not true, it ought to be!!!!!!
Click to expand...

17K years ago, we would still have been in the Epigravettian Refugium (encompassing the Balkans, Italy, etc.).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379121003942

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.10.241430v1

During the LGM and the Late Glacial, the Adriatic Sea basin played a critical role in shaping the economy and mobility of Epigravettian groups. Geomorphological and sedimentological processes linked to the extension of Alpine glaciers and to the lowering of the sea level at ~120m amsl formed a vast plain area that connected the Italian and Balkan peninsulas. The central Slovenian passage was used by large pachyderms and ruminants such as cervids and bisons which, alongside with bears, were the main game targeted by Epigravettian hunter gatherers. Riparo Tagliente (northeastern Italy) represents the earliest available evidence of human occupation of the southern Alpine slope while the main glaciers in the area started withdrawing 17.7 ka ago, and is therefore critical to address questions on the impact of human movement in this time frame.
Click to expand...
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Maciamo's article on I-M223 indicates that P78 split into 2 branches, I-A427 being one of them around 5,300 years ago with the Yamnaya culture.
Click to expand...

Splits (FTDNA Haplotree):

M223 > P222 > CTS616 >
1) CTS10057 (1,047 branches) - your branch to A427, etc.
2) FGC15071 (589 branches) - my branch to M284, L126, Isles Scot/Ire, etc.

CTS10057 >
1) L701^/L702 (126) - your branch. (^YFull) (Spread with Yamnaya/Corded Ware?)
2) Z161 (919) > CTS4348 > L801 (Global Amphora Culture - see https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1820210116; Longobards - see https://dna-explained.com/2020/10/1...-what-does-their-dna-tell-us-are-you-related/)

L702 >
1) S22311 (38)
2) S12991 (86) - your branch.

S12991 > P78 (85) >
1) S25733 (63) - your branch.
2) Y7219 (17)

S25733 >
1) A427 (51) - your branch
2) PH2670 (10)
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Ok then, even further back hanging around the Italian:beer1: mainland and/or Balkan peninsula.
Click to expand...

More likely in the Balkans, then likely spread east to Ukraine and west to Italy. Your guys look to have taken the Grand Tour - going east, then west., then north, then south... At least you weren't Longobards!

Not sure where my guys went, but they did spread with the Neolithic to become the dominant Y-DNA lineage in Megalithic Britain and Ireland (although with a heavy EEF admixture).
 
CrazyDonkey said:
Splits (FTDNA Haplotree):

M223 > P222 > CTS616 >
1) CTS10057 (1,047 branches) - your branch to A427, etc.
2) FGC15071 (589 branches) - my branch to M284, L126, Isles Scot/Ire, etc.

CTS10057 >
1) L701^/L702 (126) - your branch. (^YFull) (Spread with Yamnaya/Corded Ware?)
2) Z161 (919) > CTS4348 > L801 (Global Amphora Culture - see https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1820210116; Longobards - see https://dna-explained.com/2020/10/1...-what-does-their-dna-tell-us-are-you-related/)

L702 >
1) S22311 (38)
2) S12991 (86) - your branch.

S12991 > P78 (85) >
1) S25733 (63) - your branch.
2) Y7219 (17)

S25733 >
1) A427 (51) - your branch
2) PH2670 (10)
Click to expand...

CrazyDonkey: Thanks for the information again. I forgot about that Amorim et al 2018 paper on the Longobards. It was discussed here in detail several years back. I just never at that time actually got into the Y Haplogroup analysis. As more and more I-M223 samples pop up in Mesolithic Italy, my interest in that angle has increased. My Dodecad 12B distances for these samples. I remember getting some nice distances far some of these samples. Szolad43 is my closest distance with I2a2. You might be closer to some of the I2a2's than me given they are mostly Germanic Europe. Not surprising, I am closer distance wise to all the samples with TSI (Central Italian) related ancestry (RED bar coded).

mDBZqsK.jpg


vqv4EPc.jpg


Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
4.40341913Szolad40:Amorim_2018
5.08341421Collegno121:Amorim_2018
9.08190509Collegno25:Amorim_2018
9.27144541Collegno110:Amorim_2018
9.64398258Szolad19:Amorim_2018
10.29666451Szolad36:Amorim_2018
11.38594748Szolad31:Amorim_2018
11.71591652Collegno38:Amorim_2018
11.85023628Collegno30:Amorim_2018
12.16258607Szolad37:Amorim_2018
12.80481941Collegno36:Amorim_2018
13.67620927Szolad43:Amorim_2018
16.60320451Szolad1:Amorim_2018
16.70511000Collegno23:Amorim_2018
18.67918628Szolad35:Amorim_2018
19.22978939Szolad28:Amorim_2018
19.88351076Collegno31:Amorim_2018
23.56975817Collegno49:Amorim_2018
25.45264230Szolad27:Amorim_2018
25.60952362Collegno94:Amorim_2018
26.41980129Collegno57:Amorim_2018
26.91039576Szolad20:Amorim_2018
26.98760827Szolad45:Amorim_2018
27.09977306Collegno47:Amorim_2018
28.16766764Szolad18:Amorim_2018
29.02852563Collegno102:Amorim_2018
29.44806445Collegno53:Amorim_2018
29.91551604Collegno63:Amorim_2018
30.60177609Szolad6:Amorim_2018
31.04979227Szolad5:Amorim_2018
34.94532158Szolad8:Amorim_2018
35.86667673Szolad3:Amorim_2018
35.87263999Collegno97:Amorim_2018
37.46843605Szolad23:Amorim_2018
38.26121666Szolad14:Amorim_2018
38.92431759Szolad38:Amorim_2018
39.97691709Szolad42:Amorim_2018
40.22599533Szolad30:Amorim_2018
40.64354684Szolad24:Amorim_2018
40.69214420Collegno87:Amorim_2018
40.92286891Szolad25:Amorim_2018
41.05896613Szolad12:Amorim_2018
41.57516206Szolad11:Amorim_2018
42.48501265Szolad15:Amorim_2018
43.39091149Szolad7:Amorim_2018
43.80245427Collegno83:Amorim_2018
44.53613140Szolad22:Amorim_2018
44.82164879Szolad13:Amorim_2018
44.89476473Collegno84:Amorim_2018
46.30290164Collegno92:Amorim_2018
46.72682634Szolad4:Amorim_2018
46.92842848Collegno145:Amorim_2018
47.29921987Collegno93:Amorim_2018
47.55465803Collegno146:Amorim_2018
48.35687025Szolad41:Amorim_2018
48.83019250Collegno151:Amorim_2018
49.84861583Szolad9:Amorim_2018
49.95679333Szolad16:Amorim_2018
51.33042957Szolad2:Amorim_2018

 
CrazyDonkey said:
More likely in the Balkans, then likely spread east to Ukraine and west to Italy. Your guys look to have taken the Grand Tour - going east, then west., then north, then south... At least you weren't Longobards!

Not sure where my guys went, but they did spread with the Neolithic to become the dominant Y-DNA lineage in Megalithic Britain and Ireland (although with a heavy EEF admixture).
Click to expand...

No, not me (Longobard), I provided the Dodecad12B distances and you see I get closest distances with TSI (Central Italian Tuscany) related ancestry. But yes, I am beginning to think the Palermo Trapani Pater Generis lineage did lots of traveling around Europe but settled in the place where I wanted them to:bigsmile:
 
Palermo Trapani said:
No, not me (Longobard), I provided the Dodecad12B distances and you see I get closest distances with TSI (Central Italian Tuscany) related ancestry. But yes, I am beginning to think the Palermo Trapani Pater Generis lineage did lots of traveling around Europe but settled in the place where I wanted them to:bigsmile:
Click to expand...

Yeah, Y-DNA is a different animal. There is no recombination or admixture, but rather a string of mutations (SNPs), occurring on a semi-regular basis along a single timeline, that are passed down from father to son, helping to delineate a migratory path through time and space, in that most migrations have been male-led (with families) or male-biased (finding mates afterwards). Paternal common ancestors are like pearls on a string - pull one out and they all fall to the floor. This, however, has little or nothing to do with one's total ancestry, in that any genetic contribution diminishes on a generational basis, the further back in time you go (1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, etc.). It does establish our position on the Y-DNA Global Haplotree and allows us to participate in its expansion (toward the present).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 3762 times.

Back
Top