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Thread: Source of Hunter Gatherer Ancestry in NW-Euro is of Iberian/Bell Beaker Origin?

  1. #1
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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Source of Hunter Gatherer Ancestry in NW-Euro is of Iberian/Bell Beaker Origin?

    The K12b results for Balma Gulyana seem to have something to do with Bell Beaker expansion.

    Some years ago I read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Bell-Beaker-T.../dp/1782979271
    This and many other things I read point to an origin of Bell Beakers in Iberia. Later they mixed with the Corded Ware people and their traditions.

    But it seems that the main hunter ancestry source of Northwestern Europeans is not EHG/CHG/Steppe, but Iberia, which is also the birth place of Bell Beaker:

    Code:
    Distance to: Balma_Guilanya_Azilian
    10.38021194 Norwegian
    11.78538077 Swedish
    11.78538077 Swedish
    13.98803775 Icelandic
    14.72663913 German
    15.19342621 Poland:Warmia-Masuria
    15.77513233 Dutch
    16.14637111 English:English_North
    16.55079152 Sorb_Lusatia
    16.90706953 Irish
    17.22398908 English:English_mixed
    17.62476950 English:English_South
    17.97497705 Finnish:Finnish_West
    17.98462399 Poland:GreaterPoland
    18.53104962 Slovak
    19.06476855 Estonian
    19.71081429 Poland:Mazovia
    19.73375534 Ukrainian
    19.95169079 Russian:Smolensk
    20.56235881 Russian:Southwest_Rus
    20.78167162 Russian:Pskov
    20.88905934 Hungarian:Hungarians
    20.97809095 Slovenian
    21.00545777 Russian:Tver
    21.20985413 Russian:Oryol
    Code:
    Distance to: El-Miron
    13.65659181 Swedish
    13.65659181 Swedish
    13.82563199 Norwegian
    15.30813183 Icelandic
    15.34152535 German
    16.53673789 Poland:Warmia-Masuria
    16.98184913 English:English_North
    17.01352697 Dutch
    17.29274993 Sorb_Lusatia
    17.83948149 Irish
    17.86505248 English:English_mixed
    18.09174397 English:English_South
    18.47164584 Slovak
    18.50308082 Poland:GreaterPoland
    19.99124558 Finnish:Finnish_West
    20.08017430 Ukrainian
    20.45402894 Estonian
    20.47507021 Poland:Mazovia
    20.56642896 Slovenian
    20.69277671 Russian:Smolensk
    20.73292309 Hungarian:Hungarians
    21.05896721 Russian:Southwest_Rus
    21.42314430 Russian:Ryazan
    21.50393082 Russian:Oryol
    21.55217405 Russian:Tver
    The eastern hunters do not reach the same distances:



    Code:
    Distance to: CHG_Kotias
    19.87305211 Iranian:Mazandaran
    21.64158497 Iranian
    21.64158497 Iranian:Iranian
    21.73291513 Georgian:Svan
    21.82699704 Kurd:KAZ
    22.83156587 Georgian
    23.33840397 Georgian:Imereti
    23.49770627 Georgian:Turkey
    23.62647032 Georgian:Gurian
    23.66068469 Azerbaijani:Azerbaijani_Dagestan
    23.73566515 Georgian:Mingrelian
    24.20087808 Georgian:Adjara
    24.21970685 Iranian:Iranians
    26.06803982 Kurd:Kurmanji
    27.09594804 Iranian:Fars
    27.09873613 Azerbaijani:Azerbaijani_Iran
    27.48625838 Kurd:Sorani
    27.62617599 Azerbaijani:Azerbaijani_Turkey
    28.06964909 Iranian:Khorasan
    28.55250952 Avar
    28.56370424 Azerbaijani:Azerbaijani
    28.63596166 Armenian:East
    29.61114993 Azerbaijan_Jews
    30.56446793 Armenian:West
    30.68993646 Assyrian
    Code:
    Distance to: CHG_Satsurblia
    20.30747892 Iranian:Mazandaran
    22.34584749 Iranian
    22.34584749 Iranian:Iranian
    22.77261294 Kurd:KAZ
    24.20791400 Georgian:Svan
    24.41738930 Iranian:Iranians
    25.00560537 Georgian
    25.29908892 Georgian:Turkey
    25.43117378 Georgian:Imereti
    25.58833523 Azerbaijani:Azerbaijani_Dagestan
    25.87891806 Georgian:Adjara
    25.95867870 Georgian:Gurian
    25.99625550 Georgian:Mingrelian
    27.08707810 Kurd:Kurmanji
    27.58191618 Iranian:Fars
    28.29352930 Azerbaijani:Azerbaijani_Iran
    28.31999823 Kurd:Sorani
    28.76617284 Iranian:Khorasan
    28.97725832 Azerbaijani:Azerbaijani_Turkey
    29.84655927 Azerbaijani:Azerbaijani
    30.20766128 Armenian:East
    30.59077802 Avar
    30.69164218 Azerbaijan_Jews
    31.77638903 Assyrian
    31.79504678 Iranian:Bandari


    Code:
    Distance to: EHG
    17.10731130 Finnish:Finnish
    17.97498540 Finnish:FIN30
    20.69762064 Lithuanian:Lithuanians
    22.59035414 Lithuanian:Lithuanian
    23.44444924 Finnish:Finnish_East
    25.02773062 Latvian
    26.82614583 Mordovian
    26.84466427 Russian:Pinega
    27.20518701 Lithuanian:Lithuanian
    27.67686218 Belorussian
    28.26267326 Russian:North_Dvina
    29.69398424 Estonian
    29.94961602 Finnish:Finnish_West
    30.34209388 Russian:Pskov
    30.77019355 Russian:Kostroma
    31.84661923 Russian:Tver
    32.72048135 Russian:Southwest_Rus
    34.43307060 Russian:Smolensk
    34.60625350 Russian:Kursk
    34.66899574 Russian:Ryazan
    35.07209164 Russian:Oryol
    35.09233232 Russian:Voronoezh
    35.98626544 Poland:Mazovia
    37.80037169 Poland:Warmia-Masuria
    37.85692803 Ukrainian
    Distance to Bronze Age populations:

    Code:
    Distance to: Balma_Guilanya_Azilian
    8.84933896 Nordic_Bronze_Age_(n=14)
    12.23490907 EBA_Unetice_culture_(n=18)
    13.23129623 Bell_Beaker_Central_Europe
    15.07378519 Late_Neolithic_Denmark
    15.18393230 Battle-Axe_culture_(n=3)
    15.72884929 Battle_Axe
    15.80107275 Early_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=28)
    15.83958964 Bell_Beaker_Britain_(n=27)
    16.26823592 Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7)
    16.29002762 Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Britain_(n=24)
    16.51933413 Bell_Beaker_Czechia_(n=15)
    16.54916614 Bell_Beaker_Britain
    16.97501105 Unetice
    17.91365959 MBA_Sintashta_culture_(n=4)
    18.33529383 Bronze_Age_Germany_(n=26)
    19.64651369 MBA_Tumulus_culture_(n=4)
    19.85503211 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria/Saxony_(n=20)
    19.86880469 Single_Grave
    19.93652427 Middle-Late_Bronze_Age_Hungary_(n=12)
    20.22361738 Bell_Beaker_Gaul_(n=13)
    20.37091063 EBA_Fatyanovo_culture_(n=18)
    21.15447234 Early_Bronze_Age_Swabia_(n=24)
    21.28122177 Western_Corded_Ware_(n=17)
    22.83414548 Andronovo
    23.68914730 Bell_Beaker_Poland_(n=6)
    It is more likely the HG source of Battle Axe and Nordic Bronze Age than Yamnaya:

    Code:
    Distance to: Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    1.59458459 EMBA_Catacomb_culture_(n=4)
    4.76222637 Yamnaya1
    6.16265365 Afanasievo
    6.78256589 Middle_Bronze_Age_North_Caucasus_(n=7)
    6.88217262 EMBA_Poltavka_culture_(n=8)
    10.90790081 Yamnaya2
    10.92245394 Catacomb
    17.70687720 Kumsay
    18.72680432 Eastern_Corded_Ware_(n=14)
    18.98323998 Corded_Ware_Baltic
    19.51101996 LBA_Srubna_culture_(n=27)
    21.16936938 MBA_Andronovo_culture_(n=3)
    21.53535697 Srubnaya
    22.01081552 Andronovo
    23.20307307 Western_Corded_Ware_(n=17)
    24.52849771 EBA_Fatyanovo_culture_(n=18)
    25.93362104 Cimmerian
    28.40209499 MBA_Sintashta_culture_(n=4)
    30.87478259 Battle-Axe_culture_(n=3)
    31.94160140 Battle_Axe
    31.98817750 Bell_Beaker_Netherlands_(n=7)
    32.03845190 LBA_Karasuk_culture_(n=7)
    32.47074222 Bell_Beaker_Britain
    32.67875151 Baltic_Bronze_Age_(n=12)
    33.28388499 Bronze_Age_Estonia_(n=16)


    Code:
    Distance to: Nordic_Bronze_Age_(n=14)
    8.84933896 Balma_Guilanya_Azilian
    9.78121669 Mesolithic_Italy
    10.73705732 Mesolithic_Spain
    12.32790736 El-Miron
    12.88548020 Villabruna
    13.87024513 Magdalenian
    14.11271413 Mesolithic_France
    14.37094291 La-Brana
    14.92884121 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    15.15806386 Grotte_du_Bichon
    17.00790992 Pitted_Ware
    17.99033074 Mesolithic_Ireland
    20.08320692 Loschbour
    21.22388042 Gravettian_Krems
    22.35942978 Ertebölle
    23.54851163 Mesolithic_Germany
    23.83943372 Mesolithic_Balkans_HG_(n=43)
    26.00003077 Iron_Gates_HG
    31.64883726 Pestera_Muierii
    33.90667633 Mesolithic_Baltic_Scandinavia_(SHG)_(n=31)
    34.67127630 Cheddar_Man
    34.78944811 Sunghir
    34.90166042 Kostenki
    35.61992280 Latvia_HG
    36.25283299 Goyet
    Here is the paper about them: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...19301459#bib33


    Any Hobby Experts who can say something about that? How do Steppe-Promoters explain this?

  2. #2
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    These distances are atrociously high.
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

  3. #3
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    IMO it is the HG factor, also part of the Bell Beaker. May be as a result of SGC mixing with neolithic populations.....

    If BB was the 'transmitter' Sweden would not be so high....but the Dutch/Germans.

    My distance to mesolithic Spain is also in the 13. just like the Swedes, but that's more due to relative higher HG compared to Dutch average.

  4. #4
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    distances are distances, they don't say eveything about admixture, about what makes themselves!
    You could be at the same distance as another pop but in the opposite side relative to the reference pop.
    Western Europe BA pops were not Yamnalike but only had a strong Yamnalike component, and the WHG component was strong in northern Europe, even in some Baltic regions, far to be dominantly EHG, and since before the BB phenomenon whose Iberian elements I don't deny totally.

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