Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 193

Thread: Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

  1. #51
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    1,517

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Sicily-South
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Fantastic, so it is not just a paper, but an entire museum exhibit.
    Thanks for the link, yes, looks as you suggest, and entire museum with constructing biographies of the individuals with representations of what they look like based on DNA. Impressive project.

  2. #52
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,857

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Hi guys, I just want to know some predictions from you. What do you think which haplogroup will be dominant and will E-V13 finally be found among the Greeks? Do you expect more Southern and Northern shifted outliers? The Roman paper leak was pretty much accurate but there were some unexpected results too. However, this paper is very promising and appears to be exciting.
    J2a, G2a, R1b-Z2103 representing the older Mycenean Greek and E-V13 representing the newer Eastern Urnfielder Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age influence.

    My prediction.

  3. #53
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    226


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's quite a change from the Neolithic period, and even the Archaic period was for some more plant based..

    Indeed, Empuries would seem to be a good sample to use for the Classical period as well. Probably Olalde knew the general outlines of what samples were in the Reich Lab for the ancient Greeks.

    I think we can put to bed the idea that the original Mycenaean samples we had were somehow not representative. That one goes into the book I'm keeping, too.

    Their level of total steppe seems to be pretty close to that of Southern Italians, yes?
    Honestly it seems to me they are a bit different: I recall that the Aegean_BA cluster was below and east of Sicilians on a PCA, whereas this main Greek cluster seems just below Sicilians, and it seems to me that they fall in the place in the PCA occupied by some previous Balkan samples, those that cluster around Bulgarian_IA. Just a tiny bit shifted away from the Aegean_BA cluster but not overlapping nonetheless.

    The issue with the Mycenean samples is that they were quite heterogenuous, which is a situation one expects in cases of recent invasions, so it wasn't clear how IA Greeks would turn out to be exactly, though of course they would be roughly similar to Myceneans.

    The Empuries samples as well covered quite some timeframe, and I suspected that later samples had higher Anatolian admixture, and the one sample from the classical age (I'd take as a recent colonist from Phocea) was at the higher edge of the Aegean_BA cluster, clustering where one Balkan antiquity sample clusters (the one literally over the contour of the Aegean_BA cluster) and where the Abd4 sample clusters too, at the edges of the Sicilian cluster, inbetween Sicilians and Maltese. I think that obviously such a shift is due to some low Anatolian admixture in Greeks from Anatolia.

  4. #54
    Banned
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    1,262


    Country: Albania



    Mycenaeans were parallel with Sicilians but in western direction (kinda like that of Sardinians/Minoans/EEF).

  5. #55
    Banned
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    1,262


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    There was never any reason to believe that Iron Age Greeks would be different to the preceding Mycenaeans in the first place. That original autosomal profile likely lasted all the way through Classical period. It wasn't until the Hellenistic period when Greek civilization came to dominate the Eastern Mediterranean that we see the formation of a distinctively modern looking Cretan/Dodecanesian/Cypriot-like genetic profile, very similar to the Imperial Roman samples, after extensive intermixing between the original IA/Classical Greek and Greek-speaking but autosomal West Asian people. It's highly likely that this sort of Southeast Mediterranean genetic profile persisted well into the Roman/Byzantine period, where the assimilation of the Slavs crystallized the difference we see between the mainland and islands today.

    This is why there is a similar level of Mycenaean-like ancestry (40-60%) across all modern Greeks (with the exception of Pontians from the Black Sea), with an inverse relationship between East European vs. West Asian admixture based on geography e.g. a Rhodian is a Cypriot with roughly 6% more Slavic, thus 6% less West Asian, Cretan is a Rhodian with around 8% more Slavic etc. all the way until you reach Macedonia.
    50-60% Classical Greek admixture in Cretans and Aegean Islands is very probable. But Rhodians seem to be closer to Central Anatolians than to Mycenaeans. And Cretans are basically a more Slavicized version of Rhodians with some negligible Venetian admixture. Rhodes is very close to Western Anatolia and many Aegean Islands were abandoned and repopulated even during the Middle Ages so maybe those islands got repopulated with a Byzantine Anatolian population during the Middle Ages. (that happen to resemble the Marathon sample ~95%) This could be true especially about Cyprus.

    Crete as a large island was never abandoned and is fairly distant geographically from Anatolia so that suggest that Greeks during the Hellenistic period were mixed with something exotic and distant like ARM_LA. (A speculation of mine)

    Otherwise I don't believe Cretans are more Anatolian than Classical Greek/Mycenaean-like. And I also don't believe it for Dodecanese Islands unless the scenario that I mentioned above is true.

  6. #56
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-04-19
    Posts
    110


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    50-60% Classical Greek admixture in Cretans and Aegean Islands is very probable. But Rhodians seem to be closer to Central Anatolians than to Mycenaeans. And Cretans are basically a more Slavicized version of Rhodians with some negligible Venetian admixture. Rhodes is very close to Western Anatolia and many Aegean Islands were abandoned and repopulated even during the Middle Ages so maybe those islands got repopulated with a Byzantine Anatolian population during the Middle Ages. (that happen to resemble the Marathon sample ~95%) This could be true especially about Cyprus.

    Crete as a large island was never abandoned and is fairly distant geographically from Anatolia so that suggest that Greeks during the Hellenistic period were mixed with something exotic and distant like ARM_LA. (A speculation of mine)

    Otherwise I don't believe Cretans are more Anatolian than Classical Greek/Mycenaean-like. And I also don't believe it for Dodecanese Islands unless the scenario that I mentioned above is true.
    Resettlements took place during Nikephoros Phokas reign, after the recapture of Crete.

    (on the translated page: not Central Asian populations, it's a mistranslation, the original text mentions Asia Minor populations)
    https://www-goodnet-gr.translate.goo..._x_tr_pto=wapp

  7. #57
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,579


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    Honestly it seems to me they are a bit different: I recall that the Aegean_BA cluster was below and east of Sicilians on a PCA, whereas this main Greek cluster seems just below Sicilians, and it seems to me that they fall in the place in the PCA occupied by some previous Balkan samples, those that cluster around Bulgarian_IA. Just a tiny bit shifted away from the Aegean_BA cluster but not overlapping nonetheless.

    The issue with the Mycenean samples is that they were quite heterogenuous, which is a situation one expects in cases of recent invasions, so it wasn't clear how IA Greeks would turn out to be exactly, though of course they would be roughly similar to Myceneans.

    The Empuries samples as well covered quite some timeframe, and I suspected that later samples had higher Anatolian admixture, and the one sample from the classical age (I'd take as a recent colonist from Phocea) was at the higher edge of the Aegean_BA cluster, clustering where one Balkan antiquity sample clusters (the one literally over the contour of the Aegean_BA cluster) and where the Abd4 sample clusters too, at the edges of the Sicilian cluster, inbetween Sicilians and Maltese. I think that obviously such a shift is due to some low Anatolian admixture in Greeks from Anatolia.
    My point was addressed to the fact that the usual suspect maintained that future Mycenaean samples would be very different, far more "Corded Ware" like.

    Even though it seemed to many to be unlikely that Empuries was a good sample to use in the interim for Greeks of the classical era it seems to have been a "passable" sample. I really don't get what you're arguing about.

    To be honest, I'm tired of the incessant speculation. When the paper is published, and hopefully the raw data as well, and we can see the statistical methods used on that data, we'll know if the authors' conclusions are justified, and indeed whether we have more clues as to what happened over time. Given the analysis of the modern genomes from the mainland and the islands, clearly there's a lot of variation depending on local history.

    So far, I don't see anything that negates the Raveane et al conclusions quoted above.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  8. #58
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-09-16
    Posts
    683


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What are you looking at?

    Of the summaries presented, one has blue eyes and brown/blonde hair (Sparta), and one, from around 1000 BC has red hair with no information on the color of the eyes.

    The rest all have dark hair and dark eyes.

    If you have data for other samples than those posted here, please present it.

    Otherwise, please stop spreading misinformation.
    Let me add this to your overall correct statement. There was one archaic Macedonian sample, a female with blue eyes and brown hair. So from 9 (minus the 1 mesolithic sample) 2 samples had blue eyes.




    Anyway, anyone who is familiar with Ancient Greek primary sources would expect nothing but that Ancient Greeks were majority dark-haired and dark-eyed Mediterranean people. However, in this study, the Greeks aside from one outlier that had intermediate to dark complexion, were all pale or pale to intermediate. In contrast in the "Aegean palatial civilizations" paper, the BA Greeks were predicted as being very dark which took us all by surprise.

  9. #59
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-09-16
    Posts
    683


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    J2a, G2a, R1b-Z2103 representing the older Mycenean Greek and E-V13 representing the newer Eastern Urnfielder Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age influence.

    My prediction.
    Your prediction sounds good and plausible.

  10. #60
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    30-03-21
    Location
    Patra
    Posts
    57


    Ethnic group
    Peloponnese/Central Greece
    Country: Greece



    I can't wait for the paper to be released it's going to answer so many questions. Some samples from the MBA and EIA seem to cluster between modern Greeks and myceneans

  11. #61
    Banned
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    1,262


    Country: Albania



    After several Balkan samples in the Danubian paper plotting south of Bulgaria_IA. I was sure that old Macedonians were just Mycenaeans but slightly more northern shifted.

  12. #62
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,401

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    After several Balkan samples in the Danubian paper plotting south of Bulgaria_IA. I was sure that old Macedonians were just Mycenaeans but slightly more northern shifted.

    this is something that Borza and Cohen have been stating since the 1990's

    They also said the Doric invasion did not go to macedonian lands and so kept these "myceaneans" more pure to their origin
    They state the Dorians came via ship ( logicall ) from modern Epirus and Albanian lands, conquering all Greece and all the islands including Crete and Rhodes
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  13. #63
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,857

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    this is something that Borza and Cohen have been stating since the 1990's
    They also said the Doric invasion did not go to macedonian lands and so kept these "myceaneans" more pure to their origin
    They state the Dorians came via ship ( logicall ) from modern Epirus and Albanian lands, conquering all Greece and all the islands including Crete and Rhodes
    Why would Dorians take ships from Epirus and Albania to reach Greece?

    The ones who came by ships and landed to South Albania and Epirus according to Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi were the Urnfielders who according to him didn't left much legacy on the identity of latter Illyrians but in the surroundings. During Bronze to Iron Age transition burial rite in Greece changed to cremation in urns like Athenian burial rite etc, etc.

    Would be interesting to know who were these people, because during this time Mycenae was put in fire and their civilization collapsed followed by Dark Ages and then we got the formation of Iron Age and Classical Greeks.

  14. #64
    Banned
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    1,262


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Why would Dorians take ships from Epirus and Albania to reach Greece?

    The ones who came by ships and landed to South Albania and Epirus according to Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi were the Urnfielders who according to him didn't left much legacy on the identity of latter Illyrians but in the surroundings. During Bronze to Iron Age transition burial rite in Greece changed to cremation in urns like Athenian burial rite etc, etc.

    Would be interesting to know who were these people, because during this time Mycenae was put in fire and their civilization collapsed followed by Dark Ages and then we got the formation of Iron Age and Classical Greeks.
    Genetics works just fine when it comes to Slavic admixture.

    The only possible explanation is that the Mycenaean civilization was overthrown by an identical population and that there might another reason for the Bronze Age Collapse. Aegean Islands (including the Ionic one who were "Mycenaean-like" and supposedly different from Dorians) were a part of Mycenaean civilization and did in fact experience the Greek Dark Ages and massive cultural collapse just like Peloponnese did. I don't see E-V13 or high Doric steppe there from the hypothesized late Bronze Age migrations.






  15. #65
    Banned
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    1,262


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    Southern Italians can be modelled in such a way, yes, but I don't believe it's accurate. The additional Natufian admixture in them points towards assimilation of a population that wasn't like the Minoans/Mycenaeans who both lacked that component in excess of their Neolithic Anatolian. We know that Greek city-states in Magna Graecia were quite large, and the interconnected nature of the Hellenic world at that time means it's quite likely the region absorbed Greek immigrants from across the entire Eastern Mediterranean. This of course would include mainland Greece, but also places like the Aegean islands, Cyprus, Asia Minor, Egypt and coastal Syria. Naturally, the genetics of Southern Italy would have been quite cosmopolitan as a result, and probably more akin to modern Greek island populations than Mycenaeans by the time the Romans conquered and assimilated them.

    Attachment 13210
    The old Greek cities of Italy were established around 800BC to 500BC. Nearly all the Greek cities of Italy were cut off from Hellenistic Macedonian empire due to Roman expansion in Italy before Alexander The Great was even born.
    Last edited by ihype02; 29-04-22 at 01:42.

  16. #66
    Banned
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    737

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    So excited for this!

    A Spartan with blue eyes and light hair? No one tell Hitler.

  17. #67
    Banned
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    737

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Why would Dorians take ships from Epirus and Albania to reach Greece?

    The ones who came by ships and landed to South Albania and Epirus according to Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi were the Urnfielders who according to him didn't left much legacy on the identity of latter Illyrians but in the surroundings. During Bronze to Iron Age transition burial rite in Greece changed to cremation in urns like Athenian burial rite etc, etc.

    Would be interesting to know who were these people, because during this time Mycenae was put in fire and their civilization collapsed followed by Dark Ages and then we got the formation of Iron Age and Classical Greeks.
    Vjose was a major river in antiquity, but got dried out. NGL Hammond states Greek colonists that built Apollonia sailed up Vjose to collaborate with local Illyrians and build that colony.

    "when ‘200 [Corinthians] sailed up the Vjosë (Aous) [River], established good relations with the local Illyrians, founded a joint settlement and made a riverine harbor"

  18. #68
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,401

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Why would Dorians take ships from Epirus and Albania to reach Greece?

    The ones who came by ships and landed to South Albania and Epirus according to Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi were the Urnfielders who according to him didn't left much legacy on the identity of latter Illyrians but in the surroundings. During Bronze to Iron Age transition burial rite in Greece changed to cremation in urns like Athenian burial rite etc, etc.

    Would be interesting to know who were these people, because during this time Mycenae was put in fire and their civilization collapsed followed by Dark Ages and then we got the formation of Iron Age and Classical Greeks.
    as they explained ....the Dorians required ships to take all the Greek islands, including Crete and Rhodes ...........the Dorians must have lived on the coast as they where mariners as well

  19. #69
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,857

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Genetics works just fine when it comes to Slavic admixture.
    The only possible explanation is that the Mycenaean civilization was overthrown by an identical population and that there might another reason for the Bronze Age Collapse. Aegean Islands (including the Ionic one who were "Mycenaean-like" and supposedly different from Dorians) were a part of Mycenaean civilization and did in fact experience the Greek Dark Ages and massive cultural collapse just like Peloponnese did. I don't see E-V13 or high Doric steppe there from the hypothesized late Bronze Age migrations.




    It's very well recorded that during LBA people identical to North Balkans Danube, associated with Eastern Urnfielders took part in so called Aegean migrations, the introduction of cremation burials, Naue II swords, and whole other package is an attestation of this. Facts are straight there.

  20. #70
    Banned
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    737

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    That Macedonian lady with the dark hair and blue eyes is looking like a few aunts I have from southern Albania

  21. #71
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    345


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Keep in mind that the extent of the habitat of the Greeks in classical times is pretty vast. From Asia Minor, to Crete, South Italy, Macedonia and Epirus. Seas, islands and mountains separate these people. And yet, they have less genetic variety than the modern Greeks. North Ancient Greeks may be slightly more Northern shifted, and Ionian Greeks may have more Anatolian admixture. The big news however is that we now know that these people essentially cluster together. From here, it's all splitting hairs. The Macedonians are more Med and are closer to Mycenaeans than the modern Greeks. Modern Greeks from the South and the islands cluster closer to Ancient Macedonians than modern Greek Macedonians. And to make it more spectacular, some ancient Greeks may cluster closer to some modern Greeks than they are to other Ancient Greeks.

  22. #72
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    15-11-21
    Posts
    33


    Country: Italy



    Where's the Spartan on the PCA so speculation can be cut by 90%

  23. #73
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,579


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Let me add this to your overall correct statement. There was one archaic Macedonian sample, a female with blue eyes and brown hair. So from 9 (minus the 1 mesolithic sample) 2 samples had blue eyes.




    Anyway, anyone who is familiar with Ancient Greek primary sources would expect nothing but that Ancient Greeks were majority dark-haired and dark-eyed Mediterranean people. However, in this study, the Greeks aside from one outlier that had intermediate to dark complexion, were all pale or pale to intermediate. In contrast in the "Aegean palatial civilizations" paper, the BA Greeks were predicted as being very dark which took us all by surprise.
    Thanks for the clarification.

    As to the first bolded comment, a lot of people, from internet "experts" to "historians" to anthropologists to Nazi "racialists" relying on those anthropologists to some degree, drew, from the same Ancient Greek primary texts the opposite conclusion as to the Ancient Greek physical type. They were convinced they would look like Germanic "Aryans".

    As to the second bolded comment, any comparison would require a determination as to whether there was a different in the quality of the samples, i.e. did one set of samples have more data. Also, the algorithms would have to be compared, i.e. which test was more recent, which has a better reputation in the forensic evidence field, etc..

  24. #74
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    238

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The post Iron Age Greeks do not completely overlap with Mycenaeans. The Myceneans actually formed their own cluster. Some of the spesimens are closer to Sicilians and some Greek islanders. And I believe that the modern Greeks in this chart are the ones previously used for the Lazaridis' Mycenaean paper. They are from Thessalonika. For good measure, the modern Greeks would plot starting from the T of Thessaloniki to just a little bit below the text Doliani. The post Bronze Age Greeks also seem to be pulled a little bit more to the near East.
    Curious about the two “Agios Giorgios?” results and wonder if they are samples from the same location but different eras, plotting far away from each other.

  25. #75
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-04-19
    Posts
    110


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The post Iron Age Greeks do not completely overlap with Mycenaeans. The Myceneans actually formed their own cluster. Some of the spesimens are closer to Sicilians and some Greek islanders. And I believe that the modern Greeks in this chart are the ones previously used for the Lazaridis' Mycenaean paper. They are from Thessalonika. For good measure, the modern Greeks would plot starting from the T of Thessaloniki to just a little bit below the text Doliani. The post Bronze Age Greeks also seem to be pulled a little bit more to the near East.
    I think so too...
    Even if they are not the focus, I don't understand how can you release a paper about Greeks through the ages and have only people from Thessaloniki as representatives of the modern era. Are they still the only properly sampled samples available ?
    It's like releasing a paper on French population history and having people from Normandy as the sole representatives of the modern era... They are part of the genetic variation, sure, but it leaves a lot to be desired.

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •