Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

[enter_tain]

Don't agree with you there. What Lazaridis proved was that first Greeks were Mediterranean, rather than anything else. And that the modern Greeks and neighboring peoples were similar to them, but with some delusion of their genepool. That was the essense of the research. Like the rest of us, he didn't know exactly to what extent other people invaded Greece after the Bronze Age. But this was less relevant at that point of time. It's not that anyone expected modern Greeks to be pure Mycenaens. It's only later research which started to shed ligh into the Slavic admixture in the Balkans.



I postulated that Doric Greeks were somewhat different as well. But we still don't have sufficient evidence for that.

But we do. Not all Greeks are homogenous. The ones in the Aegean/eastern parts diverge.

[Jovialis]

So excited for this!

A Spartan with blue eyes and light hair? No one tell Hitler.

Yeah, no one tell Hitler the Spartan is genetically Southern European/Mediterranean, despite those features.

[torzio]

Yeah, no one tell Hitler the Spartan is genetically Southern European/Mediterranean, despite those features.

Haha

reminds me of the Scene in the film ..True Romance ......when Dennis Hopper tells Christopher Walken, that all sicilians where originally blond hair and blue eyed people

[Jovialis]

Also, nobody better tell Hitler that the "Aryans" are darker than modern Europeans.

[Jovialis]

With so little steppe DNA, I think this lends some more weight to Anatolian_N bringing some light features, in addition to light skin.

[bigsnake49]

With so little steppe DNA, I think this lends some more weight to Anatolian_N bringing some light features, in addition to light skin.

That is for me the surprise of this study, the very small amount of Steppe. Which begs the question, were the Greeks displaced by Steppe Invaders from Central Europe? The prevailing narrative up to now was that they were a lot of admixture with steppe.

[Hawk]

Also, nobody better tell Hitler that the "Aryans" are darker than modern Europeans.

Hitler should have focused more on his E-M35 Natufian/Iberomaurusian ancestors who were mid-tone skinned.

[Dianatomia]

But we do. Not all Greeks are homogenous. The ones in the Aegean/eastern parts diverge.

The research team has a video posted in Greek. I took the time view it. They argue that Abdera are colonists from Asia Minor. It concerns an Ionian Greek from the 6th century BC. They settled on the coast of Thrace. That specimen is really not that far off from modern Greeks of Asia Minor.

The Akanthos specimens are originally West Aegean islanders and therefore represent the original Bronze Age population. One of them has more Steppe because it could have more Log02 admixture.

On the other hand SLK also has higher levels of admixture from Asia Minor. So in all, if we exclude the islanders it seems that post Iron Age Greeks have more admixture from Anatolia. I don't see that as evidence for a Dorian invasion from Epirus.

The scattered genes from Log 02 and Log 04 types are definitely the source of light featured outliers in Mycenaean Greeks. Nordicists were off by maybe a thousand years. Thinking that Mycenaeans were majority Steppe. During the Iron Age, East Med/Anatolian elements entered the Greek gene pool. Along with some additional Steppe.

[ihype02]

It's very well recorded that during LBA people identical to North Balkans Danube, associated with Eastern Urnfielders took part in so called Aegean migrations, the introduction of cremation burials, Naue II swords, and whole other package is an attestation of this. Facts are straight there.

I think E-V13 became a mainstream line because of Slavic inclusions in Peloponnese. (40% to 50% Early Sclaveni admixture) Later Arvanite colonies gave a bust by 5% to 8%.

Target: Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 371.1558% / 3.71155821
58.4	Greek_Dodecanese
41.6	Croat_Bosnia

Target: Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 261.7663% / 2.61766258
50.8	Greek_Dodecanese
49.2	Serb_Herzegovina

[Hawk]

I think E-V13 became a mainstream line because of Slavic inclusions in Peloponnese. (40% to 50% Early Sclaveni admixture) Later Arvanite colonies gave a bust by 5% to 8%.

Target: Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 371.1558% / 3.71155821
58.4	Greek_Dodecanese
41.6	Croat_Bosnia

Target: Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 261.7663% / 2.61766258
50.8	Greek_Dodecanese
49.2	Serb_Herzegovina

That's illogical, E-V13 was reduced in Central-Eastern Balkans by a large margin, and the same Slavs wouldn't increase the percentage in Peloponnese which is twice as larger as in Balkan Slavs countries. It doesn't add up the math. Try something else.

[Dushman]

@ihype02

Is that a modern Peloponnese sample?

And are you saying that Croats from Bosnia or Herzegovina Serbs are 100% North-Eastern European?

[ihype02]

@ihype02

Is that a modern Peloponnese sample?

And are you saying that Croats from Bosnia or Herzegovina Serbs are 100% North-Eastern European?

The rumored Slavic samples according to some people in Anthrogenica had some Balkan admixture during their road. A good proportion E-V13 in Serbia and especially Croatia does not seem to be native.

Besides I need to say this: Do you know that Medieval Albanians probably remained endogamous till the at least 9th century. (did not mix with the Pagan Slavs at least not as much) And besides that we know that 10th century South Slavic genetic profile was already created.

So that Slavic admixture that we mixed with was South Slavic. The same will probably turn out to be true for Peloponnese.

But we need to know how the Late Roman age ancestors of Albanians were like. (I believe Lazio/Marche/Tuscan-like)

[ihype02]

That's illogical, E-V13 was reduced in Central-Eastern Balkans by a large margin, and the same Slavs wouldn't increase the percentage in Peloponnese which is twice as larger as in Balkan Slavs countries. It doesn't add up the math. Try something else.

You are assuming that all Slavs were the same, they were not.
Albanians and Greeks have similar proportions of R1a and I2a while South Slavs have way more I2a than R1a. Y-DNA does not work that way.
Why did J2a die out in Peloponnese but not in other more genetically conservative islands? Besides do you know that Crete has nearly as much R1a and I2a as Peloponnese. ~15% in Crete while Peloponnese has ~20%

It also does not add up that old Greeks were traveling all other the world forgot to spread E-V13 in Crete and Dodecanese Islands. And even in Crete the West has more E-V13 than the East.

[Dushman]

I believe the biggest contributors of E-V13 in Greece are the “Roman” citizens of Thrace, Macedonia, and Epirus (Vetus+Nova) + Albanians and Vlachs. Those people we later simply called Slavs/Bulgarians were initially mostly Vlachs under the influence of the Bulgarian Church and weren’t yet fully assimilated.

I doubt 6th-9th century actual Slavs (not Slavic subjects) carried that much E-V13. Even Medieval Serbia and Bosnia were flooded with Vlachs up to the 15-16th century.

[Hawk]

You are assuming that all Slavs were the same, they were not.
Albanians and Greeks have similar proportions of R1a and I2a while South Slavs have way more I2a than R1a. Y-DNA does not work that way.
Why did J2a die out in Peloponnese but not in other more genetically conservative islands? Besides do you know that Crete has nearly as much R1a and I2a as Peloponnese. ~15% in Crete while Peloponnese has ~20%

It also does not add up that old Greeks were traveling all other the world forgot to spread E-V13 in Crete and Dodecanese Islands. And even in Crete the West has more E-V13 than the East.

I didn't assume when i replied to you. And i know how Y-DNA works especially a rise in percentage and downgrade depending on the situation. E-V13 in Dodecanese Islands and Cyprus is actually in decent percentages, but not in Crete which still makes sense since their actual contribution there started to wane.

I am actually not saying E-V13 is Proto-Greek, i say that the biggest contributors to E-V13 in Greece was the Bronze to Iron Age Danubian-Urnfield/Eastern Urnfield influences, attested in Barbarian-Ware from Greece, which archeologists connect to Knobbed-Ware and hence to Psenicevo which is already confirmed it was heavy packed with E-V13. There was some disruption of material culture from Mycenaean <> Dark Ages <> Classical Greeks. I assume after the Dark Ages the Barbarian-Ware somehow ended up adopting the Greek speech.

The so called Aegean migrations was a huge event during Bronze to Iron transition age, and for decades it has been talked and brought to tables that a lot of groups via Central Balkans headed toward Mycenean Greece.

Despite all of these, one thing i am quite sure is that E-V13 didn't rose there in percentage with the Slavic invasion. It's absurd thinking so when you consider the recent aDNA samples from Viminacium. How much it was prevalent before Slavic and after, when summing up.

[ihype02]

I didn't assume when i replied to you. And i know how Y-DNA works especially a rise in percentage and downgrade depending on the situation. E-V13 in Dodecanese Islands and Cyprus is actually in decent percentages, but not in Crete which still makes sense since their actual contribution there started to wane.

I am actually not saying E-V13 is Proto-Greek, i say that the biggest contributors to E-V13 in Greece was the Bronze to Iron Age Danubian-Urnfield/Eastern Urnfield influences, attested in Barbarian-Ware from Greece, which archeologists connect to Knobbed-Ware and hence to Psenicevo which is already confirmed it was heavy packed with E-V13. There was some disruption of material culture from Mycenaean <> Dark Ages <> Classical Greeks. I assume after the Dark Ages the Barbarian-Ware somehow ended up adopting the Greek speech.

The so called Aegean migrations was a huge event during Bronze to Iron transition age, and for decades it has been talked and brought to tables that a lot of groups via Central Balkans headed toward Mycenean Greece.

Despite all of these, one thing i am quite sure is that E-V13 didn't rose there in percentage with the Slavic invasion. It's absurd thinking so when you consider the recent aDNA samples from Viminacium. How much it was prevalent before Slavic and after, when summing up.

Do you have sources about E-V13 in Dodecanese?

[Hawk]

Do you have sources about E-V13 in Dodecanese?

I remember reading once a post by rafc who collected info on that:

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.[

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/archiv...26644-p-2.html

Though he didn't quite scope it down further than E-M215, i really doubt that E-V13/non-EV13 ratio would be less than 90/10 with the exception of Cyprus where i would put to 60-70/40-30.

[ihype02]

I remember reading once a post by rafc who collected info on that:



Though he didn't quite scope it down further than E-M215, i really doubt that E-V13/non-EV13 ratio would be less than 90/10 with the exception of Cyprus where i would put to 60-70/40-30.

E-V13 in Dodecanese Islands is fairly small according to this project and also in Eastern Cretans who are much more genetically (and historically) "conservative".
Kalymnos (based on 113 matches):


E (3.5%):

E-V13
E-M78
E-L677
E-L791

G (25.6%):

G-CTS11562 x26
G-PF3345
G-M342 x2

I2 (8.8%):

I2a-M223 x3
I2a-S12195 x5
I2a-CTS10228
I2a-L699

I1 (1.7%)

I1-M253
I1-M227

J2a (27.4%):

J2a-M319 x2
J2a-L25 x3
J2a-L26 x2
J2a-M67 x7
J2a-L70 x14
J2a-L24
J2a-M92
J2a-M172

J2b (2.6%)

J2b-M12
J2b-M241
J2b-L83

J1 (10.6%):

J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-Z2215 x8
J1-M267 x2

R1a (9.7%):

R1a-Z93 x6
R1a-M417 x4
R1a-CTS3402

R1b (9.7%):

R1b-BY250
R1b-Z2108
R1b-P297 x3
R1b-L23 x4
R1b-U152
R1b-M67

Only 1 R1a and 1 I2a is Slavic here. Don't get confused.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....r-region/page3

[Ralphie Boy]

Eye-popping amount of J2a-L70 in Kalymnos. That haplogroup is in my bloodline, confirmed through a relative (sub-clade unknown, unfortunately).

The Roman Balkans study shows that much E-V13 was found in the Balkans, before the Slavs arrived. Certainly Slavs who incorporated local people could have helped spread some around. That study argues for rapid assimilation of Balkans locals with Slavs, who brought a new “Northeastern” ancestry signal, which is weaker in mainland Greece.

[Hawk]

E-V13 in Dodecanese Islands is fairly small according to this project and also in Eastern Cretans who are much more genetically (and historically) "conservative".
Kalymnos (based on 113 matches):


E (3.5%):

E-V13
E-M78
E-L677
E-L791

G (25.6%):

G-CTS11562 x26
G-PF3345
G-M342 x2

I2 (8.8%):

I2a-M223 x3
I2a-S12195 x5
I2a-CTS10228
I2a-L699

I1 (1.7%)

I1-M253
I1-M227

J2a (27.4%):

J2a-M319 x2
J2a-L25 x3
J2a-L26 x2
J2a-M67 x7
J2a-L70 x14
J2a-L24
J2a-M92
J2a-M172

J2b (2.6%)

J2b-M12
J2b-M241
J2b-L83

J1 (10.6%):

J1a-CTS15/Z1828 x2
J1-Z2215 x8
J1-M267 x2

R1a (9.7%):

R1a-Z93 x6
R1a-M417 x4
R1a-CTS3402

R1b (9.7%):

R1b-BY250
R1b-Z2108
R1b-P297 x3
R1b-L23 x4
R1b-U152
R1b-M67

Only 1 R1a and 1 I2a is Slavic here. Don't get confused.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....r-region/page3

That is not a project, just one member solely collecting. Looks straight away off the grid with the papers Imo.

[ihype02]

https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/com...group-e1b-v13/

Remarkable is also its distribution among Rusyns, East Slavs from the Carpathians not associated with the Kievan Rus’, isolated thus quite soon from East Slavic expansions to the east. They were reported to show ca. 35% hg. E1b-V13 globally in FTDNA, with a frequency similar to or higher than R1a, in common with South Slavic peoples*, reflecting thus a situation similar to the source of East Slavs before further R1a-based bottlenecks (and/or acculturation events) to the east...

* Iberian samples of the Visigothic period in Spain show up to 25% E1b-V13 samples, with a mixture of haplogroups including local and foreign lineages, as well as some more E1b-V13 samples later during the Muslim period. Out of the two E1b samples from Longobards in Amorim et al. (2018), only SZ18 from Szólád (ca. AD 412-604) is within E1b-V13, in a very specific early branch (SNP M35.2), further locating the expansion of hg. E1b-V13 near the Danube. Samples of haplogroup J (maybe J2a) or G2a among Germanic tribes (and possibly in Poland’s Roman Iron Age / Early Middle Ages) are impossible to compare with early Hungarian ones without precise subclades.

One sample from Székkutas-Kápolnadülő (SzK/239) among middle or late Avars (ca. AD 650-710), a supposed Slavonic-speaking polity, of hg. E1b-V13.

[Hawk]

That's the same guy who thinks R1b-V88 were the original Proto Afro-Asiatics.

E-V13 among Rysins if i recall correctly falls down within 10-14%. Very likely Geto-Dacian influence on them.

[ihype02]

That's the same guy who thinks R1b-V88 were the original Proto Afro-Asiatics.

E-V13 among Rysins if i recall correctly falls down within 10-14%. Very likely Geto-Dacian influence on them.

Rusyeins seems to have settled Danube in the second millennium too.

Yeah Early Slavs were almost entirely I2a and R1a. But my belief was that they picked some E-V13 during their road (whenever it was Dacian-like or whatever) making a more southern shifted population before mixing with other natives. Like the pagan ancestors of Croatians picked some E-V13 during their road and nearly completely wiped the native Dalmatian population. Or maybe the Romans displaced some East Balkanites in Dalmatia. Assuming E-V13 was not common there in Iron Age.

E-V13 is extremely confusing.

[torzio]

That's the same guy who thinks R1b-V88 were the original Proto Afro-Asiatics.

E-V13 among Rysins if i recall correctly falls down within 10-14%. Very likely Geto-Dacian influence on them.

He is wrong R-V88 where the first to go back into Africa via the levant and into Egypt .............the group split ....with one group going to Tunisia and crossing into Italy ................the other went down Cameroon area and beyond

There is an old scientific paper on this

[bigsnake49]

The research team has a video posted in Greek. I took the time view it. They argue that Abdera are colonists from Asia Minor. It concerns an Ionian Greek from the 6th century BC. They settled on the coast of Thrace. That specimen is really not that far off from modern Greeks of Asia Minor.
The Akanthos specimens are originally West Aegean islanders and therefore represent the original Bronze Age population. One of them has more Steppe because it could have more Log02 admixture.
On the other hand SLK also has higher levels of admixture from Asia Minor. So in all, if we exclude the islanders it seems that post Iron Age Greeks have more admixture from Anatolia. I don't see that as evidence for a Dorian invasion from Epirus.
The scattered genes from Log 02 and Log 04 types are definitely the source of light featured outliers in Mycenaean Greeks. Nordicists were off by maybe a thousand years. Thinking that Mycenaeans were majority Steppe. During the Iron Age, East Med/Anatolian elements entered the Greek gene pool. Along with some additional Steppe.

@Dianatomia, can you provide me with a link?