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Thread: Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    The Doliani is from the time of the Albanian migration and Serbian invasion (1300-1400). He cannot be Albanian because Zagori was a stronghold of the Greeks, part of the reason Ionnina did not fall, while the rest of Epirus was overrun. And the manner of his death, probably as a consequence of Albanian raids.
    Ionnina after 1205 had many emigrants from Constantinople that has nothing to do with the Iocal population.

    The Metropolitan of Naupaktos, John Apokaukos, reports how the city was but a "small town", until Michael gathered refugees who had fled Constantinople and other parts of the Empire that fell to the crusaders of the Fourth Crusade, and settled them there, transforming the city into a fortress and "ark of salvation". Despite frictions with local inhabitants who tried in 1232 to expel the refugees, the latter were eventually successfully settled and Ioannina gained in both population and economic and political importance.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you're talking about EEF type samples and steppe samples, yes, we do, imo. We have dozens and dozens, and the patterns are clear.

    Autosomal dna is not like ydna. You don't need thousands and thousands of samples to see the patterns.
    What patterns are clear exactly... Yes you need thousands and thousands of samples because these mutations don't happen when we want them too. It's quite clear during the Late Neolithic none of these populations were mostly light haired/eyed.

    We have a major study out of Italy essentially saying there was no change in phenotype with IE migrations. We need more samples to determine exactly when/where these features got super popular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you're talking about EEF type samples and steppe samples, yes, we do, imo. We have dozens and dozens, and the patterns are clear.

    Autosomal dna is not like ydna. You don't need thousands and thousands of samples to see the patterns.

    we have seemingly big enough samples when taking diverses great regions together but I hold to say at a more local level we have not so big samples.
    and the more SNPs and genes you have (autosomals), the less they can mistake you even if the sample is not too big; it's rather the less numerous sets of phenotypic SNP's that can mistake us, not at the level of the individual look, but at the statistical level (how many people share this look among a region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menachem View Post
    Why would the Spartans be more light pigmented than other Greeks? It seems very clear to me that even as the Steppe component was “diluted” so-to-speak, there was continued selection for eg blondism alleles at a disproportionate rate amongst the elites (these elites being of the lineage going back to less “diluted” proto-Greeks etcetera). When there would be disruption to this caste-like phenomenon typical of Indo-Europeans, these selective alleles of blondism that have progenerated would be mixed into the wider gene pool which, of course, was by and large brunette. The Spartans were more blonde because they were of a stock which maintained this caste-like system more strongly.
    There is zero evidence for any of that. In fact, it's less than zero because we know the vast majority of steppe folk in Ukraine and Russia had brown hair and brown eyes and we know they mixed with local populations everywhere they went (so no "caste" either).

    And like I said, it's not remotely certain this Spartan person actually had blonde hair given how HIrisPlex overestimates blondism. If the good researchers ran my genetic data through HIrisPlex they would predict I have light blonde hair, even though in reality it's brown. And my genetic data is of much higher quality than a pseudo-haploid genome from 500BC :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Ionnina after 1205 had many emigrants from Constantinople that has nothing to do with the Iocal population.

    The Metropolitan of Naupaktos, John Apokaukos, reports how the city was but a "small town", until Michael gathered refugees who had fled Constantinople and other parts of the Empire that fell to the crusaders of the Fourth Crusade, and settled them there, transforming the city into a fortress and "ark of salvation". Despite frictions with local inhabitants who tried in 1232 to expel the refugees, the latter were eventually successfully settled and Ioannina gained in both population and economic and political importance.


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    You want to say without saying it that Ionnina didn't not fall because of some immigrants from Istanbul a century earlier. I had to break it to you, but the local Greek mobilized themselves and begged the Serbians to send someone to hold off the Albanians. Ionnina would not have held if the nearby region of Pogoni and Zagoria did not rally to their cause, and those regions are solidly Greek, today and as far back as Lord Byrons time, there is no point in time you can show these regions becoming Albanian.

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    delete, wrong thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    You want to say without saying it that Ionnina didn't not fall because of some immigrants from Istanbul a century earlier. I had to break it to you, but the local Greek mobilized themselves and begged the Serbians to send someone to hold off the Albanians. Ionnina would not have held if the nearby region of Pogoni and Zagoria did not rally to their cause, and those regions are solidly Greek, today and as far back as Lord Byrons time, there is no point in time you can show these regions becoming Albanian.
    What I am saying it is what you reading. Nothing more nothing less. After then fall of Constantinople to the Fourth Crusade 1204, many emigrant moved to Ionnina.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian9 View Post
    Why would they "select" for something that IEs themselves didn't massively select?as far as I know they weren't some kind of modern-N. European like pop phenotypically..
    There's no need for selection ,from the point that a supposedly very light looking or light-allele carrying population mixes with a non-light one the first "exports" light alleles to the new genepool and through mostly recombination the light traits reappears here and there ,the autosomal ratios don't matter..given a large sample size only how many carry these alleles matters which can also give a rough estimate of how many have the traits expressed too.And the smaller the founding/starting population is and the more endogamous it is,the easier it is for the alleles frequency to be increased so the more that will have them expressed as well.
    They can come from the farmer side as much as they can from the steppe component or both.Remember ,back then the population sizes and the mating choices were different.
    so why else were mostly Mediterranean people displaying blondism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    There is zero evidence for any of that. In fact, it's less than zero because we know the vast majority of steppe folk in Ukraine and Russia had brown hair and brown eyes and we know they mixed with local populations everywhere they went (so no "caste" either).

    And like I said, it's not remotely certain this Spartan person actually had blonde hair given how HIrisPlex overestimates blondism. If the good researchers ran my genetic data through HIrisPlex they would predict I have light blonde hair, even though in reality it's brown. And my genetic data is of much higher quality than a pseudo-haploid genome from 500BC :)
    So you deny that Steppe people had a lot of blondism? The scythians etc as one example

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    To me, their pigmentation matters less. I find that their autosomal make up is fascinating and bridges their legacy with modern Greeks and southern Italians. Pre-Indo-European people with mostly about Anatolian_N 75% + CHG 15%, mixing with Indo-Europeans in the early Bronze Age.

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    The Marathon type/Roman Greek samples will indeed decrease the Northern Slavic component in 2 way model.

    Using Classical Greeks/Mycenaeans, Anatolians and Northern Slavs as a 3 way model, Thessalians push 40% (really) Northern Slavic which is probably overfitting.

    While using Dodecanese islanders the Northern Slavic admixture seems to be around 25% (in Peloponnese excluding certain areas) to 35% (Macedonia). Which is IMO, more accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Menachem View Post
    so why else were mostly Mediterranean people displaying blondism?
    Good point. De-pigmentation is found at the nexus between solar radiation levels and diet. If you live at altitudes or in microclimates where there's less sunlight, but eat a lot of foods, usually meats and fish, where the organism or certain parts of the organism provide lots of Vitamin A, you don't need to select as much for depigmenation as much to get every tiny bit of Vitamin A available from solar rays.

    Steppe people were primarily herders. Neolithic people ate meat, but a much bigger part of their diet was plant based.

    Also, please don't bring up dairy products. Milk from any animal only has TRACE amounts of Vitamin A. In modern countries the milk is FORTIFIED with Vitamin A. I see people still writing this YEARS after it was all explained.

    Now, this mostly explains skin de-pigmentation. I don't think they've quite figured out why blonde hair was selected. We just know indisputably that before admixture with European Neolithic people, the steppe people were lower in blondism than were the Neolithic people.

    We've been over and over this.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Menachem View Post
    so why else were mostly Mediterranean people displaying blondism?
    You had ancient Egyptian Pharaos with red hair. These lighter features are not exclusive to any one region.

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    Blondism was rather seldom everywhere, when not absent.
    Opposite to light skin, blondism was not under strong NATURAL selective pressure, not DIRECTLY; perhaps its linked SNP's has been tied (close) on chromosomes with other SNP's concerning principally other traits, and under a more direct and strong selective pressure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Blondism was rather seldom everywhere, when not absent.
    Opposite to light skin, blondism was not under strong NATURAL selective pressure, not DIRECTLY; perhaps its linked SNP's has been tied (close) on chromosomes with other SNP's concerning principally other traits, and under a more direct and strong selective pressure?
    That seems like a good possibility to me too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Blondism was rather seldom everywhere, when not absent.
    Opposite to light skin, blondism was not under strong NATURAL selective pressure, not DIRECTLY; perhaps its linked SNP's has been tied (close) on chromosomes with other SNP's concerning principally other traits, and under a more direct and strong selective pressure?
    are there any advantages for having blond or dark hair?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    are there any advantages for having blond or dark hair?
    In nature and among humans not everything is about "advantage" sometimes it's just a matter of aesthetics, beauty, or simply preference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The Marathon type/Roman Greek samples will indeed decrease the Northern Slavic component in 2 way model.

    Using Classical Greeks/Mycenaeans, Anatolians and Northern Slavs as a 3 way model, Thessalians push 40% (really) Northern Slavic which is probably overfitting.

    While using Dodecanese islanders the Northern Slavic admixture seems to be around 25% (in Peloponnese excluding certain areas) to 35% (Macedonia). Which is IMO, more accurate.
    A more interesting thing to me is how "Macedonia" a land settled in living memory 40% by Pontics and Asia Minor Greeks is 35% Slavic-admixed. It must have been as Slavic as Poland before the population exchange...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotokopoulos View Post
    A more interesting thing to me is how "Macedonia" a land settled in living memory 40% by Pontics and Asia Minor Greeks is 35% Slavic-admixed. It must have been as Slavic as Poland before the population exchange...
    If the modern Greeks in the PCA of this study are Macedonians, they appear almost identical to the medieval Doliani sample from Epirus, and thus highly indigenous to that general area for the last 700 or so years, at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotokopoulos View Post
    A more interesting thing to me is how "Macedonia" a land settled in living memory 40% by Pontics and Asia Minor Greeks is 35% Slavic-admixed. It must have been as Slavic as Poland before the population exchange...
    You are mistaken the Greek Macedonians used for the studies are people who can trace all their ancestry to Macedonia and have no Asia minor or pontic Greek or any other refugee ancestry . That's why they are pretty much identical to Epirotes, Albanians and Thessalians

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    are there any advantages for having blond or dark hair?
    I haven't any clue to answer this. It surely has some aesthetical or sexual choice weight (whose real statistical input on pop's is unkown to me) but at the natural selection level I don't see any evident advantage. It's why I imagine other causes, without having solid answer;
    Blue eyes can offer an advantages in night, but not specially in snowy environment. But blue eyes and blond hair aren't always tightly linked. Sorry for poorly useful answer.

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    Is this paper out? I think this will be important for Albanians as well, as those Epirotes and Macedonians might serve as a good proxy for Proto-Albanians (before Migration Age admixture), at least autosomally speaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Is this paper out? I think this will be important for Albanians as well, as those Epirotes and Macedonians might serve as a good proxy for Proto-Albanians (before Migration Age admixture), at least autosomally speaking.
    No paper has been announced. We just hope there is one.

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    Thanks for sharing the information with us, it was very informative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7 View Post
    You are mistaken the Greek Macedonians used for the studies are people who can trace all their ancestry to Macedonia and have no Asia minor or pontic Greek or any other refugee ancestry . That's why they are pretty much identical to Epirotes, Albanians and Thessalians
    Well, the pool is pretty small as I understand it. Still, I have yet to see any specific information relating to it.

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