Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

[peloponnesian]

Why would the Spartans be more light pigmented than other Greeks? It seems very clear to me that even as the Steppe component was “diluted” so-to-speak, there was continued selection for eg blondism alleles at a disproportionate rate amongst the elites (these elites being of the lineage going back to less “diluted” proto-Greeks etcetera). When there would be disruption to this caste-like phenomenon typical of Indo-Europeans, these selective alleles of blondism that have progenerated would be mixed into the wider gene pool which, of course, was by and large brunette. The Spartans were more blonde because they were of a stock which maintained this caste-like system more strongly.

There is zero evidence for any of that. In fact, it's less than zero because we know the vast majority of steppe folk in Ukraine and Russia had brown hair and brown eyes and we know they mixed with local populations everywhere they went (so no "caste" either).

And like I said, it's not remotely certain this Spartan person actually had blonde hair given how HIrisPlex overestimates blondism. If the good researchers ran my genetic data through HIrisPlex they would predict I have light blonde hair, even though in reality it's brown. And my genetic data is of much higher quality than a pseudo-haploid genome from 500BC :)

[PaleoRevenge]

Ionnina after 1205 had many emigrants from Constantinople that has nothing to do with the Iocal population.

The Metropolitan of Naupaktos, John Apokaukos, reports how the city was but a "small town", until Michael gathered refugees who had fled Constantinople and other parts of the Empire that fell to the crusaders of the Fourth Crusade, and settled them there, transforming the city into a fortress and "ark of salvation". Despite frictions with local inhabitants who tried in 1232 to expel the refugees, the latter were eventually successfully settled and Ioannina gained in both population and economic and political importance.


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You want to say without saying it that Ionnina didn't not fall because of some immigrants from Istanbul a century earlier. I had to break it to you, but the local Greek mobilized themselves and begged the Serbians to send someone to hold off the Albanians. Ionnina would not have held if the nearby region of Pogoni and Zagoria did not rally to their cause, and those regions are solidly Greek, today and as far back as Lord Byrons time, there is no point in time you can show these regions becoming Albanian.

[Excine]

delete, wrong thread.

[blevins13]

You want to say without saying it that Ionnina didn't not fall because of some immigrants from Istanbul a century earlier. I had to break it to you, but the local Greek mobilized themselves and begged the Serbians to send someone to hold off the Albanians. Ionnina would not have held if the nearby region of Pogoni and Zagoria did not rally to their cause, and those regions are solidly Greek, today and as far back as Lord Byrons time, there is no point in time you can show these regions becoming Albanian.

What I am saying it is what you reading. Nothing more nothing less. After then fall of Constantinople to the Fourth Crusade 1204, many emigrant moved to Ionnina.


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[Jovialis]

To me, their pigmentation matters less. I find that their autosomal make up is fascinating and bridges their legacy with modern Greeks and southern Italians. Pre-Indo-European people with mostly about Anatolian_N 75% + CHG 15%, mixing with Indo-Europeans in the early Bronze Age.

[ihype02]

The Marathon type/Roman Greek samples will indeed decrease the Northern Slavic component in 2 way model.

Using Classical Greeks/Mycenaeans, Anatolians and Northern Slavs as a 3 way model, Thessalians push 40% (really) Northern Slavic which is probably overfitting.

While using Dodecanese islanders the Northern Slavic admixture seems to be around 25% (in Peloponnese excluding certain areas) to 35% (Macedonia). Which is IMO, more accurate.

[Angela]

so why else were mostly Mediterranean people displaying blondism?

Good point. De-pigmentation is found at the nexus between solar radiation levels and diet. If you live at altitudes or in microclimates where there's less sunlight, but eat a lot of foods, usually meats and fish, where the organism or certain parts of the organism provide lots of Vitamin A, you don't need to select as much for depigmenation as much to get every tiny bit of Vitamin A available from solar rays.

Steppe people were primarily herders. Neolithic people ate meat, but a much bigger part of their diet was plant based.

Also, please don't bring up dairy products. Milk from any animal only has TRACE amounts of Vitamin A. In modern countries the milk is FORTIFIED with Vitamin A. I see people still writing this YEARS after it was all explained.

Now, this mostly explains skin de-pigmentation. I don't think they've quite figured out why blonde hair was selected. We just know indisputably that before admixture with European Neolithic people, the steppe people were lower in blondism than were the Neolithic people.

We've been over and over this.

[enter_tain]

so why else were mostly Mediterranean people displaying blondism?

You had ancient Egyptian Pharaos with red hair. These lighter features are not exclusive to any one region.

[MOESAN]

Blondism was rather seldom everywhere, when not absent.
Opposite to light skin, blondism was not under strong NATURAL selective pressure, not DIRECTLY; perhaps its linked SNP's has been tied (close) on chromosomes with other SNP's concerning principally other traits, and under a more direct and strong selective pressure?

[Angela]

Blondism was rather seldom everywhere, when not absent.
Opposite to light skin, blondism was not under strong NATURAL selective pressure, not DIRECTLY; perhaps its linked SNP's has been tied (close) on chromosomes with other SNP's concerning principally other traits, and under a more direct and strong selective pressure?

That seems like a good possibility to me too.

[bicicleur]

Blondism was rather seldom everywhere, when not absent.
Opposite to light skin, blondism was not under strong NATURAL selective pressure, not DIRECTLY; perhaps its linked SNP's has been tied (close) on chromosomes with other SNP's concerning principally other traits, and under a more direct and strong selective pressure?

are there any advantages for having blond or dark hair?

[real expert]

are there any advantages for having blond or dark hair?

In nature and among humans not everything is about "advantage" sometimes it's just a matter of aesthetics, beauty, or simply preference.

[Theotokopoulos]

The Marathon type/Roman Greek samples will indeed decrease the Northern Slavic component in 2 way model.

Using Classical Greeks/Mycenaeans, Anatolians and Northern Slavs as a 3 way model, Thessalians push 40% (really) Northern Slavic which is probably overfitting.

While using Dodecanese islanders the Northern Slavic admixture seems to be around 25% (in Peloponnese excluding certain areas) to 35% (Macedonia). Which is IMO, more accurate.

A more interesting thing to me is how "Macedonia" a land settled in living memory 40% by Pontics and Asia Minor Greeks is 35% Slavic-admixed. It must have been as Slavic as Poland before the population exchange...

[Ralphie Boy]

A more interesting thing to me is how "Macedonia" a land settled in living memory 40% by Pontics and Asia Minor Greeks is 35% Slavic-admixed. It must have been as Slavic as Poland before the population exchange...

If the modern Greeks in the PCA of this study are Macedonians, they appear almost identical to the medieval Doliani sample from Epirus, and thus highly indigenous to that general area for the last 700 or so years, at least.

[Bill7]

A more interesting thing to me is how "Macedonia" a land settled in living memory 40% by Pontics and Asia Minor Greeks is 35% Slavic-admixed. It must have been as Slavic as Poland before the population exchange...

You are mistaken the Greek Macedonians used for the studies are people who can trace all their ancestry to Macedonia and have no Asia minor or pontic Greek or any other refugee ancestry . That's why they are pretty much identical to Epirotes, Albanians and Thessalians

[MOESAN]

are there any advantages for having blond or dark hair?

I haven't any clue to answer this. It surely has some aesthetical or sexual choice weight (whose real statistical input on pop's is unkown to me) but at the natural selection level I don't see any evident advantage. It's why I imagine other causes, without having solid answer;
Blue eyes can offer an advantages in night, but not specially in snowy environment. But blue eyes and blond hair aren't always tightly linked. Sorry for poorly useful answer.

[enter_tain]

Is this paper out? I think this will be important for Albanians as well, as those Epirotes and Macedonians might serve as a good proxy for Proto-Albanians (before Migration Age admixture), at least autosomally speaking.

[peloponnesian]

Is this paper out? I think this will be important for Albanians as well, as those Epirotes and Macedonians might serve as a good proxy for Proto-Albanians (before Migration Age admixture), at least autosomally speaking.

No paper has been announced. We just hope there is one.

[sharenorth]

Thanks for sharing the information with us, it was very informative.

[Theotokopoulos]

You are mistaken the Greek Macedonians used for the studies are people who can trace all their ancestry to Macedonia and have no Asia minor or pontic Greek or any other refugee ancestry . That's why they are pretty much identical to Epirotes, Albanians and Thessalians

Well, the pool is pretty small as I understand it. Still, I have yet to see any specific information relating to it.

[billyh]

I can only make out Thessaloniki, Abdera as post Bronze Age. While Doliani is medieval. The rest is not on the chart. While the descriptions of other Iron Age Greeks is light hair and/or pale skin and in some cases light eyes. While Mycenaeans were described as very dark by Lazaridis. Where are Archontiko, Agios Panteleimonas, Sparta, Tenea on the PCA? The rest are from the Neolithic.

Homer described many, if not most of the Achaeans as light-haired. I’m not surprised

[billyh]

Yeah, no one tell Hitler the Spartan is genetically Southern European/Mediterranean, despite those features.

Hitler’s closest ally was Southern European, so I don’t think he’d be too concerned

[Vallicanus]

Homer described many, if not most of the Achaeans as light-haired. I’m not surprised

In Southern Europe any shade lighter than black or very dark brown is considered light-haired.
I'm sure it was the same in Homer's time.

[Leopoldo Leone]

In Southern Europe any shade lighter than black or very dark brown is considered light-haired.
I'm sure it was the same in Homer's time.

I call my hair "black" despite they are actually very dark brown because they are darker than the average that is medium brown; we call "light haired" those that have light brown hair and lighter shades(I live in Sicily by the way).
I do not know how well the modern day's case is applicable to 3,000 years ago, but today it is so.

[Yetos]

are there any advantages for having blond or dark hair?

the answer here can be seen on the summer tourists from North Europe to med lands.

Also most of the people I know that have blue eyes, suffer from May to July at daylight, and thry nneed sunglasses.