Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 678
Results 176 to 193 of 193

Thread: Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

  1. #176
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,545

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I call my hair "black" despite they are actually very dark brown because they are darker than the average that is medium brown; we call "light haired" those that have light brown hair and lighter shades(I live in Sicily by the way).
    I do not know how well the modern day's case is applicable to 3,000 years ago, but today it is so.
    My hair is a medium brown, but I would say my eyes are "black" because it is very hard to distinguish the pupil from the iris.

  2. #177
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,545

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    In nature and among humans not everything is about "advantage" sometimes it's just a matter of aesthetics, beauty, or simply preference.
    I think so, it may have to do with attracting the opposite sex.

  3. #178
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    581


    Country: Greece



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I call my hair "black" despite they are actually very dark brown because they are darker than the average that is medium brown; we call "light haired" those that have light brown hair and lighter shades(I live in Sicily by the way).
    I do not know how well the modern day's case is applicable to 3,000 years ago, but today it is so.

    In Greece today we have people who have brown hair with a blondish or reddish tint, the sun lightens the hair too etc. And actually the word xanthos which is translated as blonde or even worse yellow could have meant something like tawny. It is likely that it was used for light brown to dirty blonde. I really doubt anything lighter than that had existed.

  4. #179
    Banned
    Join Date
    27-08-20
    Posts
    351

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z17107

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think so, it may have to do with attracting the opposite sex.
    As well as that, beyond their sexual/appearance preference, people are also into the features their children will inherit and in such cases usually most people hope their sons specifically will get for example the dark hair and olive skin of the father and light eyes of the mother.

  5. #180
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,262


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    In Southern Europe any shade lighter than black or very dark brown is considered light-haired.
    I'm sure it was the same in Homer's time.
    Indeed. Every light brown haired person is bionda, or biondo.

    Plus, I would think we would have passed beyond thinking that a poem written hundreds of years after the "war" is a completely accurate description even of events, much less physical descriptions, in addition to which it is the unusual coloring which would be mentioned, not the everyday coloring.

    A lot of the Irish myths are like that, talking about golden and red hair, when the majority then was probably, as it is now, brown haired in adulthood.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  6. #181
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,262


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    In most cases people are attracted to what society has taught them to value in terms of appearance.

    What men found attractive in the Middle Ages, i.e. small breasts and big, pregnant looking bellies, is not what modern men prefer. Likewise, in the 1600s and 1700s men liked "plump" women whom nowadays would be described as fat and would never get a date.

  7. #182
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-06-17
    Posts
    243


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    In Greece today we have people who have brown hair with a blondish or reddish tint, the sun lightens the hair too etc. And actually the word xanthos which is translated as blonde or even worse yellow could have meant something like tawny. It is likely that it was used for light brown to dirty blonde. I really doubt anything lighter than that had existed.
    Why do you doubt that? There are plenty of ancient Greek depictions of people with blonde hair.

  8. #183
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,262


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Why do you doubt that? There are plenty of ancient Greek depictions of people with blonde hair.
    Contemporaneous ones? From the time period?

    There's a few "colorized" statues based on guesses based on specs of paint of which I'm aware, some vases where most of the depictions are of dark hair.

    Mycenaean warriors:


    Mycenaean elite women:


    This is what I meant by the "colorized" reconstructions of famous Greek statues. I think they have quite a way to go, because that red hair looks completely artificial to me. Dyed, perhaps?



    Or maybe dyed yarn wigs on the statues?

    I'd be very interested to see your collection of contemporaneous depictions of ancient Greeks with actual "blonde" hair, not lighter shades of brown.

  9. #184
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    73
    Posts
    5,407

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Gauls were described as blondish/fair haired very often, in stereotypes BUT:
    J. Caesar wrote Gauls were less often fair haired than Belgae who were less fairhaired than Germanics (he wrote somewhere he had selected the highest fairest Belgae he had at hand to simulate Germanic prisoners, if I remember well). AND among the Gauls, the habit of dying/bleeching hairs with acid soap was common. So let's be cautious about stereotypes of ancient pop's.
    And as always, the less common people were the most often described ones; PLUS colour in Irish legends had a symbolic role. Elsewhere too, I suppose?

  10. #185
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,262


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Gauls were described as blondish/fair haired very often, in stereotypes BUT:
    J. Caesar wrote Gauls were less often fair haired than Belgae who were less fairhaired than Germanics (he wrote somewhere he had selected the highest fairest Belgae he had at hand to simulate Germanic prisoners, if I remember well). AND among the Gauls, the habit of dying/bleeching hairs with acid soap was common. So let's be cautious about stereotypes of ancient pop's.
    And as always, the less common people were the most often described ones; PLUS colour in Irish legends had a symbolic role. Elsewhere too, I suppose?
    Exactly so.

    Apollo is the sun god, the huntress having red hair, black haired Hades etc.

  11. #186
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-02-21
    Posts
    21

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U106 > Z8

    Country: USA - North Carolina



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'd be very interested to see your collection of contemporaneous depictions of ancient Greeks with actual "blonde" hair, not lighter shades of brown.
    I can’t post images yet but the Hunters fresco from Pella, Agios Athanasios Fresco, and the Huqoq Mosaics (albeit Jewish, but depicting Greeks and Hellenistic in style) all depict some rather Blond looking Greeks. Many reconstructions are also blond such as the Chios Kore, the Treu Head, and some warriors on the Siphnos Treasury Frieze. Gold was also used to cover hair sometimes, but probably moreso as a show of wealth rather than an interest in depicting a realistic hair color.

  12. #187
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,545

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    I think back to this study, that showed:

    Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel reveals the role of population mixture in cultural transformation

    The material culture of the Late Chalcolithic period in the southern Levant (4500–3900/3800 BCE) is qualitatively distinct from previous and subsequent periods. Here, to test the hypothesis that the advent and decline of this culture was influenced by movements of people, we generated genome-wide ancient DNA from 22 individuals from Peqi’in Cave, Israel. These individuals were part of a homogeneous population that can be modeled as deriving ~57% of its ancestry from groups related to those of the local Levant Neolithic, ~17% from groups related to those of the Iran Chalcolithic, and ~26% from groups related to those of the Anatolian Neolithic. The Peqi’in population also appears to have contributed differently to later Bronze Age groups, one of which we show cannot plausibly have descended from the same population as that of Peqi’in Cave. These results provide an example of how population movements propelled cultural changes in the deep past.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05649-9
    This is why I think a blue-eyed ancient Greeks like the spartan who have a genetic profile similar to Myceneans, and not northern Europeans, isn't that unbelievable. If Chalcolithic Levantines can have blue eyes, so can Ancient Southern Europeans. That being said, most of the Ancient Greeks were indeed brown eyed and brown haired as the biomuse exhibit shows.

    Blue eyes and fair skin


    The scientists found that these individuals shared genetic features with people from the north, and those similar genes were absent in farmers who lived in the southern Levant earlier. For example, the allele (one of two or more alternative forms of a gene) that is responsible for blue eyes was associated with 49 percent of the sampled remains, suggesting that blue eyes had become common in people living in Upper Galilee. Another allele hinted that fair skin may have been widespread in the local population as well, the study authors wrote.

    "Both eye and skin color are traits that are controlled by complex interactions between multiple alleles, many — but not all — of which have been identified," Harney explained.

    "The two alleles that we highlight in our study are known to be strongly associated with light eye and skin color, respectively, and are often used to make predictions about the appearance of various human populations in ancient DNA studies," she said.

    However, it is important to note that multiple other alleles can influence the color of eyes and skin in individuals, Harney added, so "scientists cannot perfectly predict pigmentation in an individual."

    The scientists also discovered that genetic diversity increased within groups over time, while genetic differences between groups decreased; this is a pattern that typically emerges in populations after a period of human migration, according to the researchers.

    https://www.livescience.com/63396-an...rkey-iran.html

  13. #188
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,545

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    ~57% of its ancestry from groups related to those of the local Levant Neolithic, ~17% from groups related to those of the Iran Chalcolithic, and ~26% from groups related to those of the Anatolian Neolithic.


    The Ancient Greeks had both Iranian-related ancestry and Anatolian_N, so maybe the light eyes, skin could have come from those sources.

  14. #189
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-09-16
    Posts
    623


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ~57% of its ancestry from groups related to those of the local Levant Neolithic, ~17% from groups related to those of the Iran Chalcolithic, and ~26% from groups related to those of the Anatolian Neolithic.


    The Ancient Greeks had both Iranian-related ancestry and Anatolian_N, so maybe the light eyes, skin could have come from those sources.

    Could be. Nonetheless, BA Greeks, Minoans, and Mycenaeans were predicted as being very swarthy, though. Remember the Aegean palatial civilizations paper that left us befuddled since BA Greeks were predicted to have dark eyes and to be in the dark or dark to black category? Plus, Iran_Neo samples revealed that they were dark too.

  15. #190
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,262


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by billyh View Post
    I can’t post images yet but the Hunters fresco from Pella, Agios Athanasios Fresco, and the Huqoq Mosaics (albeit Jewish, but depicting Greeks and Hellenistic in style) all depict some rather Blond looking Greeks. Many reconstructions are also blond such as the Chios Kore, the Treu Head, and some warriors on the Siphnos Treasury Frieze. Gold was also used to cover hair sometimes, but probably moreso as a show of wealth rather than an interest in depicting a realistic hair color.
    I'm familiar with these few examples. From that you deduce what, exactly? Lighter hair was found sporadically among people of the Anatolia Neolithic, Jovialis has pointed out a cluster of lighter haired people in the Galilee, and the steppe people picked up some of those lighter alleles from the farmers of Europe, as was detailed in a recent large paper on pigmentation with regard to Europeans.

    So, yes, there were some lighter haired people among the ancient Greeks. I doubt they would have picked up the alleles from the darker Neolithic Greeks, so, it must be, as the latest pigmentation paper pointed out, something picked up from the Central European Neolithic people. The Etruscan frescoes show some lighter haired people as well, interspersed among the predominantly darker haired majority.

    Indeed, some of the patrician Latin families also were known for having lighter hair and eyes i.e. the Claudians. Caesar, on the other hand, reputedly had black eyes.

    I don't see the big whoops.

    Where there was less sun, more cloud cover, evolution favored it more. Having skin like that present in the Celtic fringe would be a serious handicap in Sicilia or the Salento.

  16. #191
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,191

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Pigmentation changes over time

    Cheddar man and his ancestor
    https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blo...her-of-history

    Cheddar Man is mtdna U5b1. Cheddar Man is I2 yda


    not sure if Cheddar man skin and eye colour are correct

    scientist get this for him ( unless they faked it )

    blue eye: 0.564

    intermediate eye: 0.189

    brown eye: 0.247

    blond hair: 0.014

    brown hair: 0.719

    red hair: 0.011

    black hair: 0.257

    light hair: 1

    dark hair: 0

    very pale skin: 0

    pale skin: 0

    intermediate skin: 0.013

    dark skin: 0

    dark to black skin: 0.987
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  17. #192
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-17
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    317


    Ethnic group
    Greek Messinia
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Pigmentation changes over time
    Cheddar man and his ancestor
    https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blo...her-of-history
    Cheddar Man is mtdna U5b1. Cheddar Man is I2 yda
    not sure if Cheddar man skin and eye colour are correct
    scientist get this for him ( unless they faked it )
    blue eye: 0.564
    intermediate eye: 0.189
    brown eye: 0.247
    blond hair: 0.014
    brown hair: 0.719
    red hair: 0.011
    black hair: 0.257
    light hair: 1
    dark hair: 0
    very pale skin: 0
    pale skin: 0
    intermediate skin: 0.013
    dark skin: 0
    dark to black skin: 0.987
    From what I’ve read and heard there’s negligible genetic connection between many of these paleothic groups and modern Brits.

  18. #193
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-02-21
    Posts
    21

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U106 > Z8

    Country: USA - North Carolina



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm familiar with these few examples. From that you deduce what, exactly? Lighter hair was found sporadically among people of the Anatolia Neolithic, Jovialis has pointed out a cluster of lighter haired people in the Galilee, and the steppe people picked up some of those lighter alleles from the farmers of Europe, as was detailed in a recent large paper on pigmentation with regard to Europeans.

    So, yes, there were some lighter haired people among the ancient Greeks. I doubt they would have picked up the alleles from the darker Neolithic Greeks, so, it must be, as the latest pigmentation paper pointed out, something picked up from the Central European Neolithic people. The Etruscan frescoes show some lighter haired people as well, interspersed among the predominantly darker haired majority.

    Indeed, some of the patrician Latin families also were known for having lighter hair and eyes i.e. the Claudians. Caesar, on the other hand, reputedly had black eyes.

    I don't see the big whoops.

    Where there was less sun, more cloud cover, evolution favored it more. Having skin like that present in the Celtic fringe would be a serious handicap in Sicilia or the Salento.
    I don’t deduce anything from it, you just asked for examples of blondism in Greek art. Doesn’t mean Greeks were genetically Nordic. Doesn’t mean neolithic euros were blond blue eyed people. But on a side note, I have seen those Etruscan tomb paintings and it seems the women were depicted as very fair and the men depicted as a more typically swarthy complexion, which I suppose is just copying Minoan artistic tradition.

Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 678

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •