Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

[ihype02]

After several Balkan samples in the Danubian paper plotting south of Bulgaria_IA. I was sure that old Macedonians were just Mycenaeans but slightly more northern shifted.

 

[torzio]

After several Balkan samples in the Danubian paper plotting south of Bulgaria_IA. I was sure that old Macedonians were just Mycenaeans but slightly more northern shifted.

this is something that Borza and Cohen have been stating since the 1990's

They also said the Doric invasion did not go to macedonian lands and so kept these "myceaneans" more pure to their origin
They state the Dorians came via ship ( logicall ) from modern Epirus and Albanian lands, conquering all Greece and all the islands including Crete and Rhodes

 

[Hawk]

this is something that Borza and Cohen have been stating since the 1990's
They also said the Doric invasion did not go to macedonian lands and so kept these "myceaneans" more pure to their origin
They state the Dorians came via ship ( logicall ) from modern Epirus and Albanian lands, conquering all Greece and all the islands including Crete and Rhodes

Why would Dorians take ships from Epirus and Albania to reach Greece?

The ones who came by ships and landed to South Albania and Epirus according to Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi were the Urnfielders who according to him didn't left much legacy on the identity of latter Illyrians but in the surroundings. During Bronze to Iron Age transition burial rite in Greece changed to cremation in urns like Athenian burial rite etc, etc.

Would be interesting to know who were these people, because during this time Mycenae was put in fire and their civilization collapsed followed by Dark Ages and then we got the formation of Iron Age and Classical Greeks.

 

[ihype02]

Why would Dorians take ships from Epirus and Albania to reach Greece?

The ones who came by ships and landed to South Albania and Epirus according to Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi were the Urnfielders who according to him didn't left much legacy on the identity of latter Illyrians but in the surroundings. During Bronze to Iron Age transition burial rite in Greece changed to cremation in urns like Athenian burial rite etc, etc.

Would be interesting to know who were these people, because during this time Mycenae was put in fire and their civilization collapsed followed by Dark Ages and then we got the formation of Iron Age and Classical Greeks.

Genetics works just fine when it comes to Slavic admixture.

The only possible explanation is that the Mycenaean civilization was overthrown by an identical population and that there might another reason for the Bronze Age Collapse. Aegean Islands (including the Ionic one who were "Mycenaean-like" and supposedly different from Dorians) were a part of Mycenaean civilization and did in fact experience the Greek Dark Ages and massive cultural collapse just like Peloponnese did. I don't see E-V13 or high Doric steppe there from the hypothesized late Bronze Age migrations.​

​

 

[ihype02]

Southern Italians can be modelled in such a way, yes, but I don't believe it's accurate. The additional Natufian admixture in them points towards assimilation of a population that wasn't like the Minoans/Mycenaeans who both lacked that component in excess of their Neolithic Anatolian. We know that Greek city-states in Magna Graecia were quite large, and the interconnected nature of the Hellenic world at that time means it's quite likely the region absorbed Greek immigrants from across the entire Eastern Mediterranean. This of course would include mainland Greece, but also places like the Aegean islands, Cyprus, Asia Minor, Egypt and coastal Syria. Naturally, the genetics of Southern Italy would have been quite cosmopolitan as a result, and probably more akin to modern Greek island populations than Mycenaeans by the time the Romans conquered and assimilated them.

View attachment 13210

The old Greek cities of Italy were established around 800BC to 500BC. Nearly all the Greek cities of Italy were cut off from Hellenistic Macedonian empire due to Roman expansion in Italy before Alexander The Great was even born.

 

[enter_tain]

So excited for this!

A Spartan with blue eyes and light hair? No one tell Hitler. :dismayed::dismayed:

 

[enter_tain]

Why would Dorians take ships from Epirus and Albania to reach Greece?

The ones who came by ships and landed to South Albania and Epirus according to Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi were the Urnfielders who according to him didn't left much legacy on the identity of latter Illyrians but in the surroundings. During Bronze to Iron Age transition burial rite in Greece changed to cremation in urns like Athenian burial rite etc, etc.

Would be interesting to know who were these people, because during this time Mycenae was put in fire and their civilization collapsed followed by Dark Ages and then we got the formation of Iron Age and Classical Greeks.

Vjose was a major river in antiquity, but got dried out. NGL Hammond states Greek colonists that built Apollonia sailed up Vjose to collaborate with local Illyrians and build that colony.

"when ‘200 [Corinthians] sailed up the Vjosë (Aous) [River], established good relations with the local Illyrians, founded a joint settlement and made a riverine harbor"

 

[torzio]

Why would Dorians take ships from Epirus and Albania to reach Greece?

The ones who came by ships and landed to South Albania and Epirus according to Albanian archaeologist Frano Prendi were the Urnfielders who according to him didn't left much legacy on the identity of latter Illyrians but in the surroundings. During Bronze to Iron Age transition burial rite in Greece changed to cremation in urns like Athenian burial rite etc, etc.

Would be interesting to know who were these people, because during this time Mycenae was put in fire and their civilization collapsed followed by Dark Ages and then we got the formation of Iron Age and Classical Greeks.

as they explained ....the Dorians required ships to take all the Greek islands, including Crete and Rhodes ...........the Dorians must have lived on the coast as they where mariners as well

 

[Hawk]

Genetics works just fine when it comes to Slavic admixture.

The only possible explanation is that the Mycenaean civilization was overthrown by an identical population and that there might another reason for the Bronze Age Collapse. Aegean Islands (including the Ionic one who were "Mycenaean-like" and supposedly different from Dorians) were a part of Mycenaean civilization and did in fact experience the Greek Dark Ages and massive cultural collapse just like Peloponnese did. I don't see E-V13 or high Doric steppe there from the hypothesized late Bronze Age migrations.​

It's very well recorded that during LBA people identical to North Balkans Danube, associated with Eastern Urnfielders took part in so called Aegean migrations, the introduction of cremation burials, Naue II swords, and whole other package is an attestation of this. Facts are straight there.

 

[enter_tain]

That Macedonian lady with the dark hair and blue eyes is looking like a few aunts I have from southern Albania :lol:

 

[Dianatomia]

Keep in mind that the extent of the habitat of the Greeks in classical times is pretty vast. From Asia Minor, to Crete, South Italy, Macedonia and Epirus. Seas, islands and mountains separate these people. And yet, they have less genetic variety than the modern Greeks. North Ancient Greeks may be slightly more Northern shifted, and Ionian Greeks may have more Anatolian admixture. The big news however is that we now know that these people essentially cluster together. From here, it's all splitting hairs. The Macedonians are more Med and are closer to Mycenaeans than the modern Greeks. Modern Greeks from the South and the islands cluster closer to Ancient Macedonians than modern Greek Macedonians. And to make it more spectacular, some ancient Greeks may cluster closer to some modern Greeks than they are to other Ancient Greeks.

 

[Carnimirie]

Where's the Spartan on the PCA so speculation can be cut by 90%

 

[Angela]

Let me add this to your overall correct statement. There was one archaic Macedonian sample, a female with blue eyes and brown hair. So from 9 (minus the 1 mesolithic sample) 2 samples had blue eyes.

Anyway, anyone who is familiar with Ancient Greek primary sources would expect nothing but that Ancient Greeks were majority dark-haired and dark-eyed Mediterranean people. However, in this study, the Greeks aside from one outlier that had intermediate to dark complexion, were all pale or pale to intermediate. In contrast in the "Aegean palatial civilizations" paper, the BA Greeks were predicted as being very dark which took us all by surprise.

Thanks for the clarification.

As to the first bolded comment, a lot of people, from internet "experts" to "historians" to anthropologists to Nazi "racialists" relying on those anthropologists to some degree, drew, from the same Ancient Greek primary texts the opposite conclusion as to the Ancient Greek physical type. They were convinced they would look like Germanic "Aryans".

As to the second bolded comment, any comparison would require a determination as to whether there was a different in the quality of the samples, i.e. did one set of samples have more data. Also, the algorithms would have to be compared, i.e. which test was more recent, which has a better reputation in the forensic evidence field, etc..

 

[Ralphie Boy]

The post Iron Age Greeks do not completely overlap with Mycenaeans. The Myceneans actually formed their own cluster. Some of the spesimens are closer to Sicilians and some Greek islanders. And I believe that the modern Greeks in this chart are the ones previously used for the Lazaridis' Mycenaean paper. They are from Thessalonika. For good measure, the modern Greeks would plot starting from the T of Thessaloniki to just a little bit below the text Doliani. The post Bronze Age Greeks also seem to be pulled a little bit more to the near East.

Curious about the two “Agios Giorgios?” results and wonder if they are samples from the same location but different eras, plotting far away from each other.

 

[lacreme]

The post Iron Age Greeks do not completely overlap with Mycenaeans. The Myceneans actually formed their own cluster. Some of the spesimens are closer to Sicilians and some Greek islanders. And I believe that the modern Greeks in this chart are the ones previously used for the Lazaridis' Mycenaean paper. They are from Thessalonika. For good measure, the modern Greeks would plot starting from the T of Thessaloniki to just a little bit below the text Doliani. The post Bronze Age Greeks also seem to be pulled a little bit more to the near East.

I think so too...
Even if they are not the focus, I don't understand how can you release a paper about Greeks through the ages and have only people from Thessaloniki as representatives of the modern era. Are they still the only properly sampled samples available ?
It's like releasing a paper on French population history and having people from Normandy as the sole representatives of the modern era... They are part of the genetic variation, sure, but it leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Dianatomia]

I think so too...
Even if they are not the focus, I don't understand how can you release a paper about Greeks through the ages and have only people from Thessaloniki as representatives of the modern era. Are they still the only properly sampled samples available ?
It's like releasing a paper on French population history and having people from Normandy as the sole representatives of the modern era... They are part of the genetic variation, sure, but it leaves a lot to be desired.

Perhaps a University in Thessaloniki was involved in the research.

 

[Dianatomia]

Curious about the two “Agios Giorgios?” results and wonder if they are samples from the same location but different eras, plotting far away from each other.

Agr1 overlaps with modern Cypriots. There is a necropolis in Cyprus also called Agios Georgios. From the Early Christian era. Could it be it? I don't know. Agios Georgios 9 is unlikely to be from Cyprus though. Too much speculation. Let's wait for the paper.

 

[ihype02]

Knowing Classical Greeks were broadly Mycenaean-like before this study was like seeing the writing on the wall. I mean after seeing the Iron Age Greek samples from Spain and many Balkan_IA clusters being fairly close to Aegean BA.
I understand being skeptical in 2018 but not now.
Was there even a migration there from another population or maybe it was a just a civil war that caused the collapse in Greece?

 

[bigsnake49]

You know these guys seem to eat an extraordinary amount of meat and animal products, and a surprisingly low amount of fruits and vegetables.

How did you come up with that conclusion if I may ask? It might be true for the elite but I doubt it for the common farmers.

EDIT: Never mind, duh!!! I wonder how they (the authors came up with the diet).

 

[bigsnake49]

Where's the Spartan on the PCA so speculation can be cut by 90%

Or the Macedonian samples so that speculation about the Greekness of Ancient Macedonians can be cut at least by 99%. There are some Balkan individuals that have been throwing conspiracy theory accusation that the Greek government is suppressing genetic studies because the ancient greeks might turn out to be not Greeks after all .Of course the new accusation will be that they threw away all the samples that did not fit the official narrative.