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Thread: Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

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    Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

    This Preview of Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse was originally posted by Moriopoulos on AG.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....017#post843017

    The genetic heritage of ancient Greece: Bringing digitalised biohistory to museums


    The project aims to analyse a series of 50 humans, including their full genomes, who lived in Greece from the Mesolithic to the Byzantine period. Based on the study of their skeletal remains and the reconstruction of each individual’s visible and functional phenotype, we create their “individual biographies”, and transfer these reconstructions into existing or new exhibitions, museums and cultural venues.
    We propose a new approach to save, document, digitise, and share a previously underutilised source of human cultural and biological heritage information: namely, palaeogenomic and anthropological data taken directly from ancient humans.
    http://https://biomuse.eu/project/?lang=en




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    Interesting phenotype predictions and recreations:

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I think "Ariel" from anthrogenica's PCA is wrong, given the fact the Abdera sample is from the Archaic period. Not after 300 BC...

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    Thanks for sharing, looks like an interesting study.

    Surprisingly, the female from Agios Panteleimonas is red haired which is very uncommon for the region.

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    Iron Age Greeks (leak?)

    Tried to ask moderators but private message function doesn't seem to work. Are leaks allowed here?

    Iron Age Greeks seem Mycenean-like, with elite samples as well

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    Certainly, and thank you again. Here is the image you shared with me:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Certainly, and thank you again. Here is the image you shared with me:

    The post Iron Age Greeks do not completely overlap with Mycenaeans. The Myceneans actually formed their own cluster. Some of the spesimens are closer to Sicilians and some Greek islanders. And I believe that the modern Greeks in this chart are the ones previously used for the Lazaridis' Mycenaean paper. They are from Thessalonika. For good measure, the modern Greeks would plot starting from the T of Thessaloniki to just a little bit below the text Doliani. The post Bronze Age Greeks also seem to be pulled a little bit more to the near East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    The Iron Age Greeks do not completely overlap with Mycenaeans. The Myceneans actually formed their own cluster. Some of the spesimens are closer to Sicilians and some Greek islanders. And I believe that the modern Greeks in this chart are the ones previously used for the Lazaridis' Mycenaean paper. They are from Thessalonika. For good measure, the modern Greeks would plot starting from the T of Thessaloniki to just a little bit below the text Doliani. The post Bronze Age Greeks also seem to be pulled a little bit more to the near East.
    I think you better look again, because most of them do in fact overlap, and are similar. Just as the upcoming Campania paper shows, as does the Olalde et al. 2021 pre-print.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think you better look again, because most of them do in fact overlap, and are similar. Just as the upcoming Campania paper shows.
    I can only make out Thessaloniki, Abdera as post Bronze Age. While Doliani is medieval. The rest is not on the chart. While the descriptions of other Iron Age Greeks is light hair and/or pale skin and in some cases light eyes. While Mycenaeans were described as very dark by Lazaridis. Where are Archontiko, Agios Panteleimonas, Sparta, Tenea on the PCA? The rest are from the Neolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The post Iron Age Greeks do not completely overlap with Mycenaeans. The Myceneans actually formed their own cluster. Some of the spesimens are closer to Sicilians and some Greek islanders. And I believe that the modern Greeks in this chart are the ones previously used for the Lazaridis' Mycenaean paper. They are from Thessalonika. For good measure, the modern Greeks would plot starting from the T of Thessaloniki to just a little bit below the text Doliani. The post Bronze Age Greeks also seem to be pulled a little bit more to the near East.
    Curious about the two “Agios Giorgios?” results and wonder if they are samples from the same location but different eras, plotting far away from each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Curious about the two “Agios Giorgios?” results and wonder if they are samples from the same location but different eras, plotting far away from each other.
    Agr1 overlaps with modern Cypriots. There is a necropolis in Cyprus also called Agios Georgios. From the Early Christian era. Could it be it? I don't know. Agios Georgios 9 is unlikely to be from Cyprus though. Too much speculation. Let's wait for the paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The post Iron Age Greeks do not completely overlap with Mycenaeans. The Myceneans actually formed their own cluster. Some of the spesimens are closer to Sicilians and some Greek islanders. And I believe that the modern Greeks in this chart are the ones previously used for the Lazaridis' Mycenaean paper. They are from Thessalonika. For good measure, the modern Greeks would plot starting from the T of Thessaloniki to just a little bit below the text Doliani. The post Bronze Age Greeks also seem to be pulled a little bit more to the near East.
    I think so too...
    Even if they are not the focus, I don't understand how can you release a paper about Greeks through the ages and have only people from Thessaloniki as representatives of the modern era. Are they still the only properly sampled samples available ?
    It's like releasing a paper on French population history and having people from Normandy as the sole representatives of the modern era... They are part of the genetic variation, sure, but it leaves a lot to be desired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lacreme View Post
    I think so too...
    Even if they are not the focus, I don't understand how can you release a paper about Greeks through the ages and have only people from Thessaloniki as representatives of the modern era. Are they still the only properly sampled samples available ?
    It's like releasing a paper on French population history and having people from Normandy as the sole representatives of the modern era... They are part of the genetic variation, sure, but it leaves a lot to be desired.
    Perhaps a University in Thessaloniki was involved in the research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnimirie View Post
    Tried to ask moderators but private message function doesn't seem to work. Are leaks allowed here?

    Iron Age Greeks seem Mycenean-like, with elite samples as well
    Seems to indeed be the case.

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    Something that was expected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnimirie View Post
    Tried to ask moderators but private message function doesn't seem to work. Are leaks allowed here?

    Iron Age Greeks seem Mycenean-like, with elite samples as well
    Thank you once again for sharing even more images:













    Wow!

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    ^Red hair, blonde hair, blue eyes in some of them, but their genotype is typical of Southern Europe, predominately Anatolian_N.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^Red hair, blonde hair, blue eyes in some of them, but their genotype is typical of Southern Europe, predominately Anatolian_N.
    Not to be a party pooper, but these are most likely based on the HIrisPlex prediction system, so they're to be taken with a grain of salt. Likelihood of blonde hair seems to be overestimated by this system. Also, ancient DNA is pseudo-haploid, which means they read just one of the 2 positions on each SNP. With eye colour, this means that the individual could in reality have been heterozygous on the relevant SNP, which is usually expressed as brown or hazel eyes in the phenotype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Not to be a party pooper, but these are most likely based on the HIrisPlex prediction system, so they're to be taken with a grain of salt. Likelihood of blonde hair seems to be overestimated by this system. Also, ancient DNA is pseudo-haploid, which means they read just one of the 2 positions on each SNP. With eye colour, this means that the individual could in reality have been heterozygous on the relevant SNP, which is usually expressed as brown or hazel eyes in the phenotype.
    That doesn't poop the party for me, because it's not important to me. However, just like southern Europeans today there were surely some of them with light features. Just like southern europeans today, they were predominantly dark hair and brown eyes, with light skin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Not to be a party pooper, but these are most likely based on the HIrisPlex prediction system, so they're to be taken with a grain of salt. Likelihood of blonde hair seems to be overestimated by this system. Also, ancient DNA is pseudo-haploid, which means they read just one of the 2 positions on each SNP. With eye colour, this means that the individual could in reality have been heterozygous on the relevant SNP, which is usually expressed as brown or hazel eyes in the phenotype.
    According to some of those algorithms I should have blue gray eyes like my father and younger sister. Instead I inherited my mother's brown eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    According to some of those algorithms I should have blue gray eyes like my father and younger sister. Instead I inherited my mother's brown eyes.
    I don't understand what you mean. I don't think these people personally ran your DNA for you to come to that conclusion.

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    Interesting thread, thanks for images. Some questions:

    1) The Leaked PCA in post #2, where is this from. Is there a new working paper on Ancient Greek DNA (new samples) floating around in the works that is going to be published maybe this year?
    2) If there is such a paper, what is the name of it, is there an Abstract presented at one of these Research Conferences since obviously it is not available at Biorxiv.
    3) With regards to the Leaked PCA, can someone give me a relative position on where these Ancient Greeks by the time of the Late Bronze/Iron Age are plotting. Kind of hard to see but I do see Sicilian, Italian_South and Italian_North as populations in the PCA. Based on Lazaridis et al 2014, The Myceneans had maybe up to 16% Steppe Ancestry, which would put them as Jovialis is alluding to well within what most Southern Europeans have, e.g. Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2, page 5) If I remember correctly had Northern Italian populations with the highest Steppe admixture at an amount of about 28%.

    Thanks, PT

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