Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

[Illyria]

Thats correct ....there are zero ancient J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro because the illyrians came from the north originally.....modern slovenia, croatia , eastern Austria ( we even have the Port of Vienna as Illyrian via Archeological studies ...not talking about the city of Vienna established by celts 500 years after ).................the ones in Foggia Italy are the Daunians who arrived there from modern southern slovenia in 1000BC


E-V13 is clearly a dardanian marker ( modern Kosovo ) and only went into coastal albania after Thracian invasion of their lands.............my guess is ancient Paeonian are also E-V13 and are related to the Dardanians

Correction: There are no ancient J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro because these regions haven't been sampled yet.

In the past you've talked about Illyria proper being the only true Illyrians, because the ones in the north were Celticized, now you're saying, "Illyrians come from the north originally so that's why there's no ancient J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro"

Surely if Illyria Proper are the true Illyrians, who came from the north, who were overwhelmingly J-L283, then we can expect the future samples to contain J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro (Which were part of Illyria proper in ancient times)

 

[torzio]

Correction: There are no ancient J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro because these regions haven't been sampled yet.

In the past you've talked about Illyria proper being the only true Illyrians, because the ones in the north were Celticized, now you're saying, "Illyrians come from the north originally so that's why there's no ancient J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro"

Surely if Illyria Proper are the true Illyrians, who came from the north, who were overwhelmingly J-L283, then we can expect the future samples to contain J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro (Which were part of Illyria proper in ancient times)

the term illyria proper only refers to the illyrian tribes in Montenegro which where not celtinized over time.......it has zero to do with origin............the illyrians migrated southward prior to the celtic 'invasion" of illyrian lands termed halstatt culture phase one ( circa 1000 BC )

when we find J-L283 in montenegro....then we can discuss

 

[Illyria]

the term illyria proper only refers to the illyrian tribes in Montenegro which where not celtinized over time.......it has zero to do with origin............the illyrians migrated southward prior to the celtic 'invasion" of illyrian lands termed halstatt culture phase one ( circa 1000 BC )

when we find J-L283 in montenegro....then we can discuss

Wrong, it also included Albania

Illyrii proprie dicti or Illyrians proper were a group of ancient illyrian tribes. Ancient Roman writer Pliny the Elder and Pomponius Mela used the term Illyrii proprie dicti ('properly called Illyrians') to designate a people that was located in the coast of modern Albania and Montenegro. ^[1]

 

[Dibran]

Correction: There are no ancient J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro because these regions haven't been sampled yet.

In the past you've talked about Illyria proper being the only true Illyrians, because the ones in the north were Celticized, now you're saying, "Illyrians come from the north originally so that's why there's no ancient J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro"

Surely if Illyria Proper are the true Illyrians, who came from the north, who were overwhelmingly J-L283, then we can expect the future samples to contain J-L283 in Albania and Montenegro (Which were part of Illyria proper in ancient times)

Don't waste your time with that anti-Albanian ding bat.

Must have been repeated 3 times that we don't have samples from those areas and he still mouths off the same things like a broken record.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Thanks for the compliment tallava dancing fanatasy wannabe Illyrian descended magjup.

Funny coming from a fake kosovar albanian troll, your family is muslim which is a disgrace to our efforts
As for magjup, proto J people were dark skinned. I people, in particular i2a were the original europeans

 

[Kari]

Funny coming from a fake kosovar albanian troll, your family is muslim which is a disgrace to our efforts

As for magjup, proto J people were dark skinned. I people, in particular i2a were the true europeans

Were Illyrians
dark skinned?

 

[mount123]

Funny coming from a fake kosovar albanian troll, your family is muslim which is a disgrace to our efforts
As for magjup, proto J people were dark skinned. I people, in particular i2a were the true europeans

I am not a Muslim. You surely are not a troll account

 

[torzio]

Wrong, it also included Albania
View attachment 13223

The bulk where in Montenegro

The taulantii history is , they moved south into Albania and occupied the land of the Bryges
they settled in the area of Epidamnos-Dyrrhachion-Durres, the Taulantii replaced the previous inhabitants, the Bryges.

Bryges or Briges (Greek: Βρύγοι or Βρίγες) is the historical name given to a people of the ancient Balkans. They are generally considered to have been related to the Phrygians, who during classical antiquity lived in western Anatolia. Both names, Bryges and Phrygians, are assumed to be variants of the same root. Based on archaeological evidence, some scholars such as Nicholas Hammond and Eugene N. Borza argue that the Bryges/Phrygians were members of the Lusatian culture that migrated into the southern Balkans during the Late Bronze Age.[1][2]

They then went to war against the macedonians of Phillip II , Alexander and Cassender




Macedonia then lost coastal Albania when they aligned themselves to Hannibal ...............so the Roman invaded macedonia and took and held all areas so that Macedonia could not supply Hannibal in Italy
Then after Hannibal defeat in 202BC ..............Rome set about in taking all of modern albania from the macedonians in the first Roman-mecedonian war of 197BC ................Albania became Roman permanently from that time and Durres became the centre of Via Egnatia

Starting at Dyrrachium (now Durrës) on the Adriatic Sea, the road followed a difficult route along the river Genusus (Shkumbin), over the Candaviae (Jablanica) mountains and thence to the highlands around Lake Ohrid. It then turned south, following several high mountain passes to reach the northern coastline of the Aegean Sea at Thessalonica. From there it ran through Thrace to the city of Byzantium (later Constantinople, now Istanbul).[1]

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Were Illyrians
dark skinned?

If they were pure j2b l283 as some people suggest then proto illyrians would have been quite dark skinned, especially if they brought their own women along from caucasus 5000 years ago - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

I am not a Muslim. You surely are not a troll account

Then stop trolling other people, how about you sort your family and neighbours first as they dont seem to understand that your religion is a remnant from the last remaining low IQ people 1400 years ago. It has no place in todays modern world where people actually have a brain

 

[mount123]

If they were pure j2b l283 as some people suggest then proto illyrians would have been quite dark skinned, especially if they brought their own women along from caucasus 5000 years ago - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

Your repetitive trolling won't change genetic facts. This is absolute non sense.

 

[Hawk]

My assumption would be like this:

Dalmatia and surrounding: J2b2-L283 in majority with some R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51, I2a-M223.

Montenegro-Albania-West Serbia-Herzegovina: J2b2-L283 mostly with some R1b-Z2103, I2a-M223 and E-V13.

Greece: J2a and R1b-Z2103, G2a from Early Bronze Age and E-V13 from Bronze to Iron Age migrations, so: J2a, R1b-Z2103, G2a and E-V13.

Dacians, Thracians: mostly E-V13 (~70-80%) with some R1b-Z2103 from Early Bronze Age.

Dardanii: I am not sure, E-V13 and J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 probably.

Epirus: E-V13, R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283, J2a, G2a.

Macedonia: E-V13, R1b-Z2103, J2a, G2a.

More or less...

 

[Excine]

My assumption would be like this:

Dalmatia and surrounding: J2b2-L283 in majority with some R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51, I2a-M223.

Montenegro-Albania-West Serbia-Herzegovina: J2b2-L283 mostly with some R1b-Z2103, I2a-M223 and E-V13.

Greece: J2a and R1b-Z2103, G2a from Early Bronze Age and E-V13 from Bronze to Iron Age migrations, so: J2a, R1b-Z2103, G2a and E-V13.

Dacians, Thracians: mostly E-V13 (~70-80%) with some R1b-Z2103 from Early Bronze Age.

Dardanii: I am not sure, E-V13 and J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 probably.

Epirus: E-V13, R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283, J2a, G2a.

Macedonia: E-V13, R1b-Z2103, J2a, G2a.

More or less...

To the above, a clarification should be added:

Hawk considers that Dacians, Thracians, Macedonia, Epirus will be predominantly E-V13 because he thinks that E-V13 is "Daco-Thracian" and he has included E-V13 in Montenegro/Albania/west Serbia/Herzegovina as the last haplogroup even below I-M223.

This is all pure speculation because 0 samples exist.

Highest E-V13 diversity in the Balkans however is nowhere near Romania or Bulgaria, but in the areas for Hawk have only very low E-V13 in antiquity. So, diversity is exactly opposite to Hawk's hypothesis.

We'll see what aDNA will show, but there is a very high correlation between modern diversity and aDNA so far.

 

[Hawk]

To the above, a clarification should be added:

Hawk considers that Dacians, Thracians, Macedonia, Epirus will be predominantly E-V13 because he thinks that E-V13 is "Daco-Thracian" and he has included E-V13 in Montenegro/Albania/west Serbia/Herzegovina as the last haplogroup even below I-M223.

This is all pure speculation because 0 samples exist.

Highest E-V13 diversity in the Balkans however is nowhere near Romania or Bulgaria, but in the areas for Hawk have only very low E-V13 in antiquity. So, diversity is exactly opposite to Hawk's hypothesis.

We'll see what aDNA will show, but there is a very high correlation between modern diversity and aDNA so far.

Because what matters is the wider Eastern Urnfielders did they archaeologically made an impact during Bronze to Iron Age, starting from Psenicevo Culture (confirmed dominant E-V13) which is related to Babadag and both of them descended from Gava the quintessential Eastern Urnfielder Culture. For decades this has been talked in archaeological circles, and now thanks to science we have a solid candidate which lineage was the main carrier of these people.

The Dacians just as Dalmatian-Illyrians were long time gone for good after the Romans enslaved quite a lot of them and weakened them, destroying their stronghold-homes. So, asking for modern diversity in both respective regions is not adequate because the modern people living there are not direct descendants of the ancient peoples, despite having some ancestry from them.

 

[Excine]

Because what matters is the wider Eastern Urnfielders did they archaeologically made an impact during Bronze to Iron Age, starting from Psenicevo Culture (confirmed dominant E-V13) which is related to Babadag and both of them descended from Gava the quintessential Eastern Urnfielder Culture. For decades this has been talked in archaeological circles, and now thanks to science we have a solid candidate which lineage was the main carrier of these people.

The Dacians just as Dalmatian-Illyrians were long time gone for good after the Romans enslaved quite a lot of them and weakened them, destroying their stronghold-homes. So, asking for modern diversity in both respective regions is not adequate because the modern people living there are not direct descendants of the ancient peoples, despite having some ancestry from them.

"Eastern Urnfielders" is not a culture or human group. It's a set of trends which were adopted and abandoned over and over again by different cultures.

Babadag came from Gava-Holihrady via eastern Romania, but how do you explain that the Babadag area is the region where E-V13 has the lowest frequency and diversity in Romania? Dobrogea also happens to be the last area where medieval Romanians settled in their trek from eastern Serbia. Where is the high diversity in Bulgaria and Romania overall? I'm not saying that modern diversity is conclusive, but when we're faced with such a staggering gap doesn't that trouble you? How possible can it be that these areas were 70-80% E-V13?

 

[Hawk]

"Eastern Urnfielders" is not a culture or human group. It's a set of trends which were adopted and abandoned over and over again by different cultures.

Babadag came from Gava-Holihrady via eastern Romania, but how do you explain that the Babadag area is the region where E-V13 has the lowest frequency and diversity in Romania? Dobrogea also happens to be the last area where medieval Romanians settled in their trek from eastern Serbia. Where is the high diversity in Bulgaria and Romania overall? I'm not saying that modern diversity is conclusive, but when we're faced with such a staggering gap doesn't that trouble you? How possible can it be that these areas were 70-80% E-V13?

If you have bothered to read, you will realize how archaeologists reflected decades ago and now that material culture and especially burial rites are the last thing to change in a culture, if it changes there would be disruption. Especially burying the dead, from inhumating to burning the corpse in a pyre and putting the ashes in specific urns. I would tell you the chances of suddenly switching to that rite from nowhere is 0%. Especially the specificity of burials, not just inhumation or cremation. There is no mistake in it, there is a whole package. Just recently did Albanian archaeologists talk about the Kanellure influence in Bronze to Iron Age Albania. I am curious to see the outcome of it in aDNA as well. I expect Enchelei, Taulanti and Dardani to be influenced by these people.

And lastly, I would answer to your question of modern diversity if you answer me why modern Croatia and Bosnia have so low J2b2-L283 percentage and diversity yet ancient samples are overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 so far?

 

[Riverman]

Lăpuș

To the above, a clarification should be added:

Hawk considers that Dacians, Thracians, Macedonia, Epirus will be predominantly E-V13 because he thinks that E-V13 is "Daco-Thracian" and he has included E-V13 in Montenegro/Albania/west Serbia/Herzegovina as the last haplogroup even below I-M223.

This is all pure speculation because 0 samples exist.

Highest E-V13 diversity in the Balkans however is nowhere near Romania or Bulgaria, but in the areas for Hawk have only very low E-V13 in antiquity. So, diversity is exactly opposite to Hawk's hypothesis.

We'll see what aDNA will show, but there is a very high correlation between modern diversity and aDNA so far.

It's connected to a clear pattern from the Upper Tisza region, from Ny?rs?g -> Suciu de Sus/Berkesz-Demecser/Lăpuș -> G?va/Belegis II-G?va/Channelled Ware -> Bosut-Basarabi/Psenichevo-Babadag = Thracians (including Dacians, Moesians, Getae, Carpi etc.)

The main issue is, that we have practically no samples from the crucial groups and areas in question and they are hard to get, because they cremated for the most part. The samples from the areas settled by these people we got, from the Iron Age and Roman era, are among the oldest E-V13 samples until now.

 

[Hawk]

What a name, Llapush. We call vesh-llapush people with protruding big ears.

 

[Riverman]

What a name, Llapush. We call vesh-llapush people with protruding big ears.

It was one of the Bronze Age capitals, in a way. They largely controlled the flow of high quality bronze items, especially weapons. In a given time span, there seems to have been a conflict within the wider Urnfield-related sphere, and they kind of embargoed the North. At that time the lords of Lăpuș preferred to give huge bronze hoards as sacrifices to the gods instead of delivering. In that period, the weapons in Northern Europe became worse and more worn out. There were less bronzes in the grave goods and the swords were used for generations, until they being completely wasted, because the supplies were missing.

They also built some of the largest and richest burial mounds of the Bronze Age:

Cremation is the only burial practice in Transylvania dur-
ing the Late Bronze Age. The small number of burials in
relation to settlements is remarkable. The burial mounds of
Lăpuş, Suciu de Sus-Troian and Bicaz are burial places of
elites, which emerged thanks to the rich ore deposits of the
region.

https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576 0x002debec.pdf

Like the later Thracians/Dacians, they used special places for scattering the ashes of the dead. This is a practise which being already noticed in the Ny?rs?g group! And we have historical accounts and archaeological remains from later Dacians/Thracians, proving that this tradition was kept alive for thousands of years. It was even used in the more Gothic-mixed Chernyakhov culture, which had strong local Dacian elements, especially in the Masłomęcz group. From the Masłomęcz group, we have one of the first E-V13 carriers from a Germanic-mixed context. And there too, a place for scattering the ashes of the dead was discovered. But many seem to have decided more individually how they being buried, which explains why Germanics adopted cremation again there and Dacians might have ended up in inhumation graves - which might give us the chance to track their DNA.

The Thracian tradition is unfortunately a worst case scenario for ancient DNA. There's even less to find than in normal cremation burials quite often (scattered ashes, completely burnt).

 

[Hawk]

Was just joking, that name is modern anyway. But, on general i agree with the points taken. The way how historical populations in Balkans were formed by reflecting on their Bronze Age Culture ancestors looks interesting and intriguing.