Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

[Angela]

Every so often the misinformation pops up, and for the benefit of newbies it has to be pointed out.

According to the forensic tests by which pigmentation is measured, WHG were dark skinned. Period.

Yamnaya were darker skinned than any modern Europeans. Period.

WHG had blue eyes, unlike the other people from their time period.

Numerous papers have provided the evidence. Please use the search engine entering phrases like pigmentation, or pigmentation qualified by the group.

Regardless, a discussion of pigmentation appears to be off topic. Please get back on topic.

[Papayaseeds]

Every so often the misinformation pops up, and for the benefit of newbies it has to be pointed out.

According to the forensic tests by which pigmentation is measured, WHG were dark skinned. Period.

Yamnaya were darker skinned than any modern Europeans. Period.

WHG had blue eyes, unlike the other people from their time period.

Numerous papers have provided the evidence. Please use the search engine entering phrases like pigmentation, or pigmentation qualified by the group.

Regardless, a discussion of pigmentation appears to be off topic. Please get back on topic.

I did not spread any misinformation lady, the ones with more yamnaya dna are the ones with more presence of the phenotype that weirdo idolise, not the ones with I2a dinarid y dna LOL.
Maybe it is about time to ban shitposter TaktikatEMalet ? I never seen that guy make a single ok post.

[torzio]

If you have bothered to read, you will realize how archaeologists reflected decades ago and now that material culture and especially burial rites are the last thing to change in a culture, if it changes there would be disruption. Especially burying the dead, from inhumating to burning the corpse in a pyre and putting the ashes in specific urns. I would tell you the chances of suddenly switching to that rite from nowhere is 0%. Especially the specificity of burials, not just inhumation or cremation. There is no mistake in it, there is a whole package. Just recently did Albanian archaeologists talk about the Kanellure influence in Bronze to Iron Age Albania. I am curious to see the outcome of it in aDNA as well. I expect Enchelei, Taulanti and Dardani to be influenced by these people.
And lastly, I would answer to your question of modern diversity if you answer me why modern Croatia and Bosnia have so low J2b2-L283 percentage and diversity yet ancient samples are overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 so far?

Enchelai and Taulanti lived together near modern Budva Montenegro , before fleeing to Albania
Cadmus was the conqueror and ruler of the Greek province of Boeotia and, when he was exiled from the city of Thebes, together with his wife Harmonia, he found refuge with an Illyrian tribe called the Enchelei. According to the legend, Cadmus arrived with a team of oxen, which is where Budva got its name from (bous is Greek for ox).
The Periplus of Pseudo-Skylax from the 4th century BC, mentions the Enchelei as an Illyrian tribe on the Adriatic coast in modern-day Montenegro.

and the Taulanti replaced the Bryges in North Albania.

But Durres and Appolonia always remained Corinthian Greek until the Roman occupation during the 2nd Punic war

[TaktikatEMalet]

I did not spread any misinformation lady, the ones with more yamnaya dna are the ones with more presence of the phenotype that weirdo idolise, not the ones with I2a dinarid y dna LOL.
Maybe it is about time to ban shitposter TaktikatEMalet ? I never seen that guy make a single ok post.

Youre the dumbass who claimed yamnaya brought light skin to WHG. Go do your research before making nonsense up, WHG, scandinavian hunter gatherers (i2a people) had light skin and blue eyes thousands of years before yamnaya existed. Look at this map and youll see that it matches with light hair and light eye frequency (except for maybe iberia wich has had the most recent north african input that had an effect on recessive genes) -
main-qimg-299ae46b2143b527ac99265a0640fc9b.png

As angela mentioned above WHG possibly got lighter skinned over time due to living in europe for a long time (colder region)

[Hawk]

Enchelai and Taulanti lived together near modern Budva Montenegro , before fleeing to Albania
Cadmus was the conqueror and ruler of the Greek province of Boeotia and, when he was exiled from the city of Thebes, together with his wife Harmonia, he found refuge with an Illyrian tribe called the Enchelei. According to the legend, Cadmus arrived with a team of oxen, which is where Budva got its name from (bous is Greek for ox).
The Periplus of Pseudo-Skylax from the 4th century BC, mentions the Enchelei as an Illyrian tribe on the Adriatic coast in modern-day Montenegro.

and the Taulanti replaced the Bryges in North Albania.

But Durres and Appolonia always remained Corinthian Greek until the Roman occupation during the 2nd Punic war

We have no evidence that Enchelei and Taulanti lived in Budva before moving in Albania, atleast i am not aware of any strong evidence. There is only the fact that Pirustae who might have been related to Enchelei, Dassareti moved up more North at a latter stage. Who knows, perhaps it is as you say, they lived in Budva initially and moved South. Just that it's based on pure speculation.

[torzio]

Youre the dumbass who claimed yamnaya brought light skin to WHG. Go do your research before making nonsense up, WHG, scandinavian hunter gatherers (i2a people) had light skin and blue eyes thousands of years before yamnaya existed. Look at this map and youll see that it matches with light hair and light eye frequency (except for maybe iberia who has had the most recent north african input) -
main-qimg-299ae46b2143b527ac99265a0640fc9b.png
As angela mentioned above WHG possibly got lighter skinned over time due to living in europe for a long time (colder region)

where is the map on skin and eye colour ?

[TaktikatEMalet]

where is the map on skin and eye colour ?

Hope this helps - feb4fd6cdd26780caeabdba51706a101.jpg

Green eyes -
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...876856818.webp

It is quite clear that WHG were responsible for not only light eyes but also blonde hair. The asians (indo europeans) wiped out nearly all the men and mixed with the women. Red hair looks unrelated to WHG frequency but it could be that only some WHG in certain areas mixed with neanderthal women

[Papayaseeds]

Hope this helps - feb4fd6cdd26780caeabdba51706a101.jpg
It is quite clear that WHG were responsible for not only light eyes but also blonde hair. The asians (indo europeans) wiped out nearly all the men and mixed with the women

Source : Your wish, I2a dinarid.

"asian" ANE+CHG:


WHG:



I am out of this discussion, close my case.

[TaktikatEMalet]

Source : Your wish, I2a dinarid.
"asian" ANE+CHG:

WHG:

I am out of this discussion, close my case.

Haha nice drawings mate - that is what proto J people look like and still do today. Would be good if you could explain why scandinavians and western russians have most WHG and are most blonde people with light eyes

We've already explained to you that WHG people got lighter over time, maybe they looked dark 30,000 years ago but definitely not 10,000 years ago. Look up scandinavian hunter gatherers, same i2a people

[Angela]

@Tak.
You continue to fail to provide papers to support your somewhat bizarre claims. This is not theapricity.

In addition, you are continuing to post off-topic material. If you continue to do so, you will join your opponent.

Hope I'm clear.

[torzio]

Hope this helps - feb4fd6cdd26780caeabdba51706a101.jpg
Green eyes -
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...876856818.webp
It is quite clear that WHG were responsible for not only light eyes but also blonde hair. The asians (indo europeans) wiped out nearly all the men and mixed with the women. Red hair looks unrelated to WHG frequency but it could be that only some WHG in certain areas mixed with neanderthal women

thanks
Green eyes are my eye colour, its also my father, my grandfather b1895 and my great grandfather b1853
all my sons are Blue eyes ( like their mother )
my grand sons , although both born with blue eyes for first two years are now......eldest grey and youngest green eyes

[Excine]

By the way, Tomenable made a nice map with historically known tribes and how they should be assigned:




https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post844427


Blue is the North Thracian/Daco-Thracian zone. The Celtic-Dacian-Sarmatian mixed zone is close to Masłomęcz, not by chance. Hopefully they have way more samples in the upcoming paper on Masłomęcz, there might be more E-V13 - though its not as sure, because the Dacians still largely cremated.

Its the Upper Tisza area which was still largely Daco-Thracian in the later Antiquity.

Didn't you get a reply for this claim on anthrogenica?

Was the J-M241 (95% J-L283) in Maslomecz Daco-Thracian too?

Were the Mediterranean characteristics of most individuals in the site features of the Dacian Carpathians or of Celts?

Published online by De Gruyter December 14, 2021
Gothic migrations: In search of the truth
Andrzej Kokowski
From the journal Praehistorische Zeitschrift
https://doi.org/10.1515/pz-2021-2014



The predominance of Mediterranean features in the description of the skeletal material of the male population of the Masłomęcz group, that is, its similarity to the Chernyakhov culture, was already pointed out in 1996 57. This is logical, given that the Wielbark culture and the Masłomęcz group lay at the basis of the Chernyakhov culture. Thus, the discovery described by the authors of the article under scrutiny is not sensational. Had they read the literature on the Masłomęcz group, they would have learnt about a 1989 publication, where it is suggested that small cemeteries appearing in the Hrubieszów Basin in the late Roman period seem to have been set up by the Goths returning from the south who brought with them a slightly different culture 58. This means that results of the environmental analysis only partially complement and validate previous findings, faulty historical interpretation aside.

[Hawk]

Read well before you write:

The Chernyakhov culture, Černjachov, or Sântana de Mureș culture, is an archaeological culture that flourished between the 2nd and 5th centuries AD in a wide area of Eastern Europe, specifically in what is now Ukraine, Romania, Moldova and parts of Belarus. The culture is thought to be the result of a multiethnic cultural mix of the Sarmatian, Slavic, Gothic, and Geto-Dacian populations of the area.
The Chernyakhov culture territorially replaced its predecessor, the Zarubintsy culture. Both cultures were discovered by the Czech-Ukrainian archaeologist, Vikentiy Khvoyka, who conducted numerous excavations around Kyiv and its vicinity. With the invasion of Huns, the culture declined and was replaced with the Penkovka culture.
Similarities have been noted between the Chernyakhov culture and the Wielbark culture, which was located closer to the Baltic Sea.

https://artsandculture.google.com/entity/chernyakhov-culture/m05wc08

[Excine]

Read well before you write:

To read what? Random sites? Were "Geto-Dacians" Mediterranean-like or were they J-M241? It's obvious that Chernyahov culture was formed largely by populations who came in the Roman era in Dacia and some others they found there.

It's beyond impossible to suggest that finding J-M241 and E-V13 in a Mediterranean-like context in Poland in a site which is explicitly tied to movements not from "locals of the Carpathians" is actually just a "Geto-Dacian" find.

[Riverman]

To read what? Random sites? Were "Geto-Dacians" Mediterranean-like or were they J-M241? It's obvious that Chernyahov culture was formed largely by populations who came in the Roman era in Dacia and some others they found there.

It's beyond impossible to suggest that finding J-M241 and E-V13 in a Mediterranean-like context in Poland in a site which is explicitly tied to movements not from "locals of the Carpathians" is actually just a "Geto-Dacian" find.

The Mediterranean phenotype described in physical anthropology doesn't necessarily imply an actual recent Southern, Mediterranean Sea area origin. Beside, many Sarmatians and Scythians, including those on the steppes, and before the Roman Empire, had a "Mediterranean" phenotype. This is nothing which strictly implies a recent Southern, especially not a Roman territorial, or even Southern Balkan origin, absolutely not.

And its known from the archaeological context, from the historical sources, from all available reasonable sources, that Dacians played a decisive role in the formation of the Chernyakhov culture, especially in the area in question, especially the subgroup in question from which these samples are from (= Masłomęcz group).
Of course, individual Romans might pop up, as tradespeople, slaves, whatever. But the autosomal DNA doesn't support such a position, but we will see, hopefully, with more samples. If, just if, more E-V13 of different subclades pop up, and they are more like locals/Lusatians, probably even Germanics, you have no case any more.

[Excine]

Strong Roman-era influence in Chernyakhov from the Middle Danubian Provinces including Roman Dacia (Ripensis/Mediterranea etc), Transylvania:

The Baiuvarii and Thuringi: An Ethnographic Perspective (edited by Janine Fries-Knoblach, Heiko Steuer, John Hines), Boydell & Brewer Ltd, 2014




Large-scale Illyrian migration into Dacia in the Roman era:

Trade in the Ancient Mediterranean: Private Order and Public Institutions By Taco Terpstra, Princeton University Press, 2019

[Riverman]

Funnily, most of the potential migration from Roman territories into Free Dacian and Gothic areas were coming from Daco-Romans. So genetically speaking, they were Dacians as well largely, whether they had an impact or not. Their impact was rather limited though and the Free Dacians of the area a real thing if you read into the subject.

[mount123]

We've already explained to you that WHG people got lighter over time, maybe they looked dark 30,000 years ago but definitely not 10,000 years ago. Look up scandinavian hunter gatherers, same i2a people

Theapricity much? Trying to link your Slavic I-Y3120 with WHG is very much off. Neither does it have anything to do with "ancient" Albanians as you were saying in one of your earlier posts. There are many up to date papers on I-Y3120 and its non existence in the ancient Balkans be it pre-Roman or Roman related. It must be shocking to you but the whole world is not Albanian lol.

I am just going to make a cut here since these kind of threads with non evidential claims at the same time attract users who make these "Balkan nationalistic style" claims up on the spot (e.g. Neolithic Europeans were dark like the night or Yamnaya had porcelain white skin/bleach blond hair and other non evidential non sense).

[Riverman]

Theapricity much? Trying to link your Slavic I-Y3120 with WHG is very much off. Neither does it have anything to do with "ancient" Albanians as you were saying in one of your earlier posts. There are many up to date papers on I-Y3120 and its non existence in the ancient Balkans be it pre-Roman or Roman related. It must be shocking to you but the whole world is not Albanian lol.

I am just going to make a cut here since these kind of threads with non evidential claims at the same time attract users who make these "Balkan nationalistic style" claims up on the spot (e.g. Neolithic Europeans were dark like the night or Yamnaya had porcelain white skin/bleach blond hair and other non evidential non sense).

Something factual, more evidence for the importance of J-L283 for early Illyrians, post from Anthrogenica:

Three new samples have been added to the J2b-L283 ancient DNA map:

• NEO806, 1063 BCE, Grotta Delle Mura, Italy_BronzeAge, J2b2a1a1a1a1a1b, which corresponds to: J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
• R11751, 569 BCE, Kerkouane, Tunisia Iron Age: J2b-L283>>Y15058>Z38240>PH1602
• R11753, 531 BCE, Kerkouane, Tunisia Iron Age: J2b-L283>>Y15058>Z38240

Considering the timing and the location, NEO806 should be a Iapygian (Paucetian?) sample. J2b-L283 has been confirmed among the Daunians as well, though no deeper classification is available due to low coverage. This sample suggests that Iapygians carried at least some J-Z638 subclades, which is the predominant J2b-L283 branch among the Albanians.

With regards to R11751 and R11753, considering the phylogeny of J-Z38240>PH1602 and since we have older J-Z38240 aDNA samples from modern Croatia, their more distant origin likely lies somewhere in the eastern Adriatic.
Kerkouane, which is in the Tunisian coast, seems to have been a trade town: "Hardly any agriculture: this town lived for trade (with Phoenicia itself and the Greek world) and trades (stonemasons, purple painters, potters...). Still, several fishermen". https://www.livius.org/articles/place/kerkouane/

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post845433

[mount123]

Something factual, more evidence for the importance of J-L283 for early Illyrians, post from Anthrogenica:


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post845433







[/FONT][/COLOR]

Thanks! I have actually come across these news on Anthrogenica too.
After all of the IA Illyrian samples, the MBA Dalmatian samples especially the one under Z638, truly a harbinger not only for this Iapygian (likely Paucetian) but also for other West/East Adriatic samples to come too, this was really nice to see. Given that the IA Bosnian samples, which are due to be released, were found in a burial rite with similar material culture as in the Southern Dalmatian Posusje samples I bet they will also show a variety of clades under J2b-L283 such as under Z638 and Z38240 and of course all of the other IA Illyrian samples from Croatia due to be published too. I am also excited about the leaked MBA J2b-L283 presence from Northern Albania. Then there are these paternal Western Balkan in origin dudes ending up in that cosmopolitan site in North Africa

Also what great news for all us under Z638 especially for the Kastrati tribe who are under the broader clade this Iapygian falls under haha. I am awaiting nice news for my Nika people too

I am just going to post this aDNA J2b-L283 map, courtesy of Trojet, here too, since he has added the Iapygian and Kerkouane samples to the map:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...2563547568&z=5

[Trojet]

Thanks! I have actually come across these news on Anthrogenica too.
After all of the IA Illyrian samples, the MBA Dalmatian samples especially the one under Z638, truly a harbinger not only for this Iapygian (likely Paucetian) but also for other West/East Adriatic samples to come too, this was really nice to see. Given that the IA Bosnian samples, which are due to be released, were found in a burial rite with similar material culture as in the Southern Dalmatian Posusje samples I bet they will also show a variety of clades under J2b-L283 such as under Z638 and Z38240 and of course all of the other IA Illyrian samples from Croatia due to be published too. I am also excited about the leaked MBA J2b-L283 presence from Northern Albania. Then there are these paternal Western Balkan in origin dudes ending up in that cosmopolitan site in North Africa
Also what great news for all us under Z638 especially for the Kastrati tribe who are under the broader clade this Iapygian falls under haha. I am awaiting nice news for my Nika people too
I am just going to post this aDNA J2b-L283 map, courtesy of Trojet, here too, since he has added the Iapygian and Kerkouane samples to the map:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...2563547568&z=5

Yeah, it's pretty much shaping like J2b-L283 subclades played an important role in the ethnogenesis of the Illyrians, just like some of us predicted some time ago and before we had all these aDNA samples.

Actually, since this Iapygian/Messapian sample (NEO806) is Y21878+ he is closer to the Hoti clan, who are under CTS11100>Y166564, and the FT29003 cluster observed in southeastern Gegëria which user Archetype0ne belongs to.
The Kastrati clan are under PH4679>>PH1751, so like Krasniqi/Nikaj clans and me

[torzio]

Thanks! I have actually come across these news on Anthrogenica too.
After all of the IA Illyrian samples, the MBA Dalmatian samples especially the one under Z638, truly a harbinger not only for this Iapygian (likely Paucetian) but also for other West/East Adriatic samples to come too, this was really nice to see. Given that the IA Bosnian samples, which are due to be released, were found in a burial rite with similar material culture as in the Southern Dalmatian Posusje samples I bet they will also show a variety of clades under J2b-L283 such as under Z638 and Z38240 and of course all of the other IA Illyrian samples from Croatia due to be published too. I am also excited about the leaked MBA J2b-L283 presence from Northern Albania. Then there are these paternal Western Balkan in origin dudes ending up in that cosmopolitan site in North Africa

Also what great news for all us under Z638 especially for the Kastrati tribe who are under the broader clade this Iapygian falls under haha. I am awaiting nice news for my Nika people too

I am just going to post this aDNA J2b-L283 map, courtesy of Trojet, here too, since he has added the Iapygian and Kerkouane samples to the map:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...2563547568&z=5

The Encyclopédie under "Peuceti", distinguishes them from another ancient people, the Peucetioe who were living in Liburnia at the head of the Adriatic, with a reference to Callimachus, as quoted in Pliny (H.N. III.21) placing their country in Pliny's day as part of Illyria.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peucetian_pottery

https://biblio.uottawa.ca/omeka1/mus...tia-peucetians
Lucania are connected with the Samnites

The Peucetians seem the only ones to create their own pottery, while the Duanians kept importing it from Croatia .............no info on messapians except constant wars with spartan owned Taranto

[mount123]

Yeah, it's pretty much shaping like J2b-L283 subclades played an important role in the ethnogenesis of the Illyrians, just like some of us predicted some time ago and before we had all these aDNA samples.
Actually, since this Iapygian/Messapian sample (NEO806) is Y21878+ he is closer to the Hoti clan, who are under CTS11100>Y166564, and the FT29003 cluster observed in southeastern Gegëria which user Archetype0ne belongs to.
The Kastrati clan are under PH4679>>PH1751, so like Krasniqi/Nikaj clans and me

My bad and thanks for correcting me I got them confused. I actually had somewhere back in my mind the memory of Kastrati and Krasniqi etc. both being under PH1751 so don't really know why I mixed them up

Well great news for the FT29003 cluster and the Hoti fis

[TaktikatEMalet]

Theapricity much? Trying to link your Slavic I-Y3120 with WHG is very much off. Neither does it have anything to do with "ancient" Albanians as you were saying in one of your earlier posts. There are many up to date papers on I-Y3120 and its non existence in the ancient Balkans be it pre-Roman or Roman related. It must be shocking to you but the whole world is not Albanian lol.
I am just going to make a cut here since these kind of threads with non evidential claims at the same time attract users who make these "Balkan nationalistic style" claims up on the spot (e.g. Neolithic Europeans were dark like the night or Yamnaya had porcelain white skin/bleach blond hair and other non evidential non sense).

All i2a peoppe are direct descendents of WHG and have been in europe longer than anyone else, those are facts wether you like it or not. I2a is not slavic (it predates slavs and everyone else by thousands of years), proto slavs were r1a and picked up i2a somewhere in central europe before moving west

Some i-3120 lines (dinaric north) have higher diversity and frequency in greece and albania instead of south slavic countries. Some lines like ph908 (dinaric south) can be linked with south slavic migration (from 600ad+) and it makes up the majority of i2a in south slavic countries

As for ancient albanians, only data we have right now is from the arbereshe (moved to italy 550+ years ago), they have a lot of i2a (and i1), over 10% each and nearly non existant j2b l283 (2-3%)

[mount123]

All i2a peoppe are direct descendents of WHG and have been in europe longer than anyone else, those are facts wether you like it or not. I2a is not slavic (it predates slavs and everyone else by thousands of years), proto slavs were r1a and picked up i2a somewhere in central europe before moving west.

Some i-3120 lines (dinaric north) have higher diversity and frequency in greece and albania instead of south slavic countries - only ph908 (dinaric south) can be linked with south slavic migration (from 600ad+) and it makes up the majority of i2a in south slavic countries

As for ancient albanians, only data we have right now is from the arbereshe (moved to italy 550+ years ago), they have a lot of i2a (and i1), over 10% each and nearly non existant j2b l283 (2-3%)

theapricity.com