Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

[1337]

Except for the Mat district, the Lezhe, Diber, Durres county and Mirdita is also a good candidate for one of the proto-Albanian homeland within Albania

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirditë_District

That samples are supposed to appear ''Mycenean like'' the minute one crosses over to Albania seems nonsense. The people that cluster that south are either mostly people that are from southern Albania or some southern Ghegs that seem to be very atypical for Ghegs.













There was also a sample from Italy from the Iron Age that clustered similar to some of these Albanians on that PCA Map , if a sample from Italy can cluster like that why not samples from Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia etc ? Even that sample in Northern Greece was pretty north like a Kosovar Albanian.

[Riverman]

If there any correlatoin of yDNA with plotting in Albanians? Like the E-V13 heavy Kosovans more Northern shifted? Other E-V13 provinces in the same direction or different etc.

[Olti27]

The reason why albanian picked up more latin than greek is not related much to geography. It is the same reason why the indians picked up more english than chinese or persian even though the British were living far away.

[1337]

I agree btw that Albanians clustering like Greeks, Tuscans etc suggests an origin close to the Ancient Greek border but based on the language it was in a Latin speaking area north of the jirecek or just north of it. Christian teachings were taught in Latin for example. It was possibly an area between Dardania and Ancient Greece somewhere in North/Central Albania where this stronghold was and where the dialect split occurred. that's why you have people ranging from appearing North East-Italian like, to Greek to Tuscan etc.

It's also interesting because IBD sharing show a lot of common ancestors with 1500 years suggesting having spread from a small area but past 1500 years the IBD sharing is normal , which suggests there was a contraction (fits with the Slavic incursions and dialect split) and then an extraction again.

[1337]

Principality of Arbanon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Arbanon ,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krujë




Though the dialect split had already occurred, Despotate of Epirus for example had an Albanian population but was under foreign rule, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_Epirus , Kosovo and Macedonia during this period was under Bulgarian rule , and still had not entirely been conquered by the Serbs.

Western Macedonia apparently was held by an Albanian principality later.

[Riverman]

I agree btw that Albanians clustering like Greeks, Tuscans etc suggests an origin close to the Ancient Greek border but based on the language it was in a Latin speaking area north of the jirecek or just north of it. Christian teachings were taught in Latin for example. It was possibly an area between Dardania and Ancient Greece somewhere in North/Central Albania where this stronghold was and where the dialect split occurred. that's why you have people ranging from appearing North East-Italian like, to Greek to Tuscan etc.

It's also interesting because IBD sharing show a lot of common ancestors with 1500 years suggesting having spread from a small area but past 1500 years the IBD sharing is normal , which suggests there was a contraction (fits with the Slavic incursions and dialect split) and then an extraction again.

Everything considered a Dardanian origin story is still the most likely, because they had both Illyrian and Thracian (from Channelled Ware/Psenichevo-Basarabi/E-V13) elements, which would account for combination the Proto-Albanian core is supposed to have had.

The migrations shown on this map are possibly interesting to verify and measure:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...3834496f2-pjlq

[Hawk]

Channeled-Ware/Gava shouldn't exclusively be linked with Thracians btw, there might be Western Channeled-Ware people who might have shared same ancestry as Thracians except having less Iranic influence in comparison with Geto-Thracians.

Also, i believe Z5018/Z5017 is to be linked with the Channeled-Ware phenomena, non Z5018/Z5017 E-V13-ers could have been present among Vatina, Brnjica but they weren't as successful in spreading as Z5017/Z5018. And, it's likely that Z5017/Z5018 were Indo-European speakers while the rest could have spoken some sort of Southern Tell Cultures language, Neolithic survivor.

[1337]

Here is your ''Mycenean'' sample

Distance to: Greece_Logkas_MBA:

4.89615155 Albanian_Kosovo
5.93014334 Italian_Romagna
6.09094410 Macedonian_Central
6.41718786 Torbesh
6.62554149 Italian_Emilia
6.65923419 Italian_Tuscany
6.94583328 Albanian_North_Albania
7.01688677 Albanian_Montenegro
7.06844396 Albanian_Macedonia
7.09947181 Albanian_South_Albania
7.14357754 Macedonian_East
7.15119570 Italian_Umbria
7.15253102 Greek_Laconia_Karitsa
7.18699520 Macedonian_South
7.31719208 Greek_Thessaly
7.60623429 Italian_Liguria
7.65052939 Italian_Marche
7.75949741 Italian_Lazio
7.78777247 Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
8.04773260 Albanian_Central_Albania
8.11820177 Bulgarian_Moldova
8.17136464 Aromanian
8.25806878 Greek_Florina
8.25960653 Greek_Euboea_South
8.27143277 Italian_Veneto


How on earth could you possibly believe that those Ancient Greek samples plotted on that PCA map are representatives of Southern Illyrians, Macedonians etc ?


This would literally make many people 50% Slavic dude.


We got those samples in Croatia that are more north and west too and I imagine such genetic combination must of been inherited to some extent rather than entirely disappeared.

[Riverman]

Channeled-Ware/Gava shouldn't exclusively be linked with Thracians btw, there might be Western Channeled-Ware people who might have shared same ancestry as Thracians except having less Iranic influence in comparison with Geto-Thracians.

Also, i believe Z5018/Z5017 is to be linked with the Channeled-Ware phenomena, non Z5018/Z5017 E-V13-ers could have been present among Vatina, Brnjica but they weren't as successful in spreading as Z5017/Z5018. And, it's likely that Z5017/Z5018 were Indo-European speakers while the rest could have spoken some sort of Southern Tell Cultures language, Neolithic survivor.

It's possible. But while I'm sure about E-Z5018 and E-Z5017 being spread by Channelled Ware people, every other group needs to be looked at on its own right.

[MOESAN]

A lot of unprecisions on both sides! Typically a no-end discussion by people with apparently emotional feelings concerning pigmentation (and sentimental assimilation of ancient pop's to modern ethnies?) pushing us far from the very topic, or am I wrong?

[Illyria]

If there any correlatoin of yDNA with plotting in Albanians? Like the E-V13 heavy Kosovans more Northern shifted? Other E-V13 provinces in the same direction or different etc.

I've noticed that Albanians from Northern Albania and Montenegro, tend to plot slightly more North-West compared to the "core" of Albanians. Interestingly, these areas have the lowest foreign Y-DNA (I2,R1a, l1, etc) but they have slightly higher Baltic, Atlantic, compared to other Albanians. J2b2 is also highest in this region. On that PCA map a few posts above, I plot just north of IceT and to the right of Fustan, on a North-West cline. My family comes from the Catholic highlands, I don't score any Slavic autosomal but I am 4% Irish, from the ancient Celts

I wonder if some of that increased Baltic/Atlantic is from when Illyrians and Dardanians used to trade amber & women with the ancient Baltic tribes. Of course, some would have came from medieval marriages with Slavic women, but there was also a trade network in ancient times from the Balkans to Northern Europe, that I've also seen you mention before

[Ralphie Boy]

In practically all academic studies, or in most of them, mainland Greeks and Albanians plot the farthest south of anyone in the Balkans, not counting the Greek islands. The Mycenaean study is one arguing for more local ancestry among Albanians and mainland Greeks, put forth in a heat map. This was presented by Cavalli-Sforza et al. in the early days of population genetics, in their PC map #4 I believe.

CA654862-FB63-4707-9809-5CC2F184E576.jpg

[1337]

Off topic but I never understood why Albanians from Albania are surprised that Kosovar Albanians distance themselves from them when you see things like this

https://www.euractiv.com/section/pol...nica-genocide/

They are also in open Balkan together with Serbia. And I have seen many Albanians from Albania support Serbia and Russia and they marry Serbs.

https://twitter.com/SabinaCudic/stat...04195307626498

[enter_tain]

I agree btw that Albanians clustering like Greeks, Tuscans etc suggests an origin close to the Ancient Greek border but based on the language it was in a Latin speaking area north of the jirecek or just north of it. Christian teachings were taught in Latin for example. It was possibly an area between Dardania and Ancient Greece somewhere in North/Central Albania where this stronghold was and where the dialect split occurred. that's why you have people ranging from appearing North East-Italian like, to Greek to Tuscan etc.

It's also interesting because IBD sharing show a lot of common ancestors with 1500 years suggesting having spread from a small area but past 1500 years the IBD sharing is normal , which suggests there was a contraction (fits with the Slavic incursions and dialect split) and then an extraction again.

The Jirecek line is a waste of time, because it's talking about Byzantine Greece not Ancient Greece. The Latin/Greek division took place after the massive loanwords into Albanian. There is no reason for modern Albanian to be heavy in Greek loanwords, when Romans took them over in 2200-2300 BC.

Although the earliest loanwords in Albanian are from Doric Greek, so clearly there was contact even in antiquity.

Off topic but I never understood why Albanians from Albania are surprised that Kosovar Albanians distance themselves from them when you see things like this

https://www.euractiv.com/section/pol...nica-genocide/

They are also in open Balkan together with Serbia. And I have seen many Albanians from Albania support Serbia and Russia and they marry Serbs.

https://twitter.com/SabinaCudic/stat...04195307626498

The Albanian parliament is denying anything Sali Berisha is putting forth. Nothing to do with Kosovo. Please educate yourself.

And who the **** supports Russia? Last time I checked it was like 7% of people who thought Russians were a "friend population".

[torzio]

Except for the Mat district, the Lezhe, Diber, Durres county and Mirdita is also a good candidate for one of the proto-Albanian homeland within Albania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirditë_District
That samples are supposed to appear ''Mycenean like'' the minute one crosses over to Albania seems nonsense. The people that cluster that south are either mostly people that are from southern Albania or some southern Ghegs that seem to be very atypical for Ghegs.
There was also a sample from Italy from the Iron Age that clustered similar to some of these Albanians on that PCA Map , if a sample from Italy can cluster like that why not samples from Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia etc ? Even that sample in Northern Greece was pretty north like a Kosovar Albanian.

the lombard samples
yellow triangles = samples of north anatolia
blue triangles = samples of Greece
Kum4 = Barcin sample ( anatolia )
your samples neither fit Lombard, Greek or Anatolian

[torzio]

I agree btw that Albanians clustering like Greeks, Tuscans etc suggests an origin close to the Ancient Greek border but based on the language it was in a Latin speaking area north of the jirecek or just north of it. Christian teachings were taught in Latin for example. It was possibly an area between Dardania and Ancient Greece somewhere in North/Central Albania where this stronghold was and where the dialect split occurred. that's why you have people ranging from appearing North East-Italian like, to Greek to Tuscan etc.

It's also interesting because IBD sharing show a lot of common ancestors with 1500 years suggesting having spread from a small area but past 1500 years the IBD sharing is normal , which suggests there was a contraction (fits with the Slavic incursions and dialect split) and then an extraction again.

North East Italian like is due to

From 1420 to 1797 the Republic of Venice controlled Dalmatia, with the southern enclave, the Bay of Kotor, is Montenegro ( A Venetian word meaning Black Mountain ). Venetian language was the commercial lingua franca in the Mediterranean at that time, and it heavily influenced Dalmatian, Liburnian, Istrian and coastal Croatian people.


lingua franca

a language that is adopted as a common language between speakers whose native languages are different.

Lingua franca of most of the world today is English language

[1337]

Jirecek line according to various people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jireček_Line , if we go by the line of jirecek himself , inscriptions south of the line were mostly found in Greek for example , in Southern Albania inscriptions were found in Greek







It's also interesting how these Albanians from Albania are all so sure that they are native to Albania when we have Aromanians scattered all across the Balkans and we don't know for sure where Romanian originated either.



And since you are accusing Kosovar Albanians of adopting ''Kosovan'' identity based on a guy on some forum, what about that guy from the Apricity ''Illyrius'' an Albanian Catholic from Mirdita that was supporting Serbia ?

What about marriages with Albanians from Albania and Serbs ?

And also this: https://www.euractiv.com/section/pol...-indifference/






I'M OUT , ADIOS!!!!!!!!

[Kari]

We know ancient greek y-dna.What about the illyrians-thracians-dacians y-dna?

[torzio]

Jirecek line according to various people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jireček_Line , if we go by the line of jirecek himself , inscriptions south of the line were mostly found in Greek for example , in Southern Albania inscriptions were found in Greek







It's also interesting how these Albanians from Albania are all so sure that they are native to Albania when we have Aromanians scattered all across the Balkans and we don't know for sure where Romanian originated either.



And since you are accusing Kosovar Albanians of adopting ''Kosovan'' identity based on a guy on some forum, what about that guy from the Apricity ''Illyrius'' an Albanian Catholic from Mirdita that was supporting Serbia ?

What about marriages with Albanians from Albania and Serbs ?

And also this: https://www.euractiv.com/section/pol...-indifference/






I'M OUT , ADIOS!!!!!!!!

Logically it has to be the blue line........Durres must be in the Latin zone as it was the major trade city between Durres and Constantinople

[Kari]

Guys, according to maciamo,thracians and illyrians were predominantly a blend of r1a and i2a.I do not know if he is a specialist in genetics

[Riverman]

Guys, according to maciamo,thracians and illyrians were predominantly a blend of r1a and i2a.I do not know if he is a specialist in genetics

He obviously is a specialist in genetics and I pretty much trust him on many things, but these assumptions being based on completely outdated informations. Some old theories assumed a primary source of E-V13 in Greeks - probably even Greeks only. This theory is now just dead. This doesn't mean Greeks couldn't have spread them, but it was coming to Greeks with Eastern Urnfielders/G�va first and later Thracian contacts second.

[mount123]

Every so often the misinformation pops up, and for the benefit of newbies it has to be pointed out.

These puppet accounts are not „newbies“, in case you have not already noticed, and are repeatedly derailing every thread on this forum.



e. g. :

If that's true then the guy is obviously mentally disturbed. Thought he was some Balkan Slav troll.

A lot of Kosovo Albanians have become mentally ill from the war. It is a sad state of affairs.

All i2a peoppe are direct descendents of WHG and have been in europe longer than anyone else, those are facts wether you like it or not. I2a is not slavic (it predates slavs and everyone else by thousands of years), proto slavs were r1a and picked up i2a somewhere in central europe before moving west

Yes indo europeans (asians) did pretty much wipe out the original europeans (i2a and i1) and bring the indo european language.

Guys, according to maciamo,thracians and illyrians were predominantly a blend of r1a and i2a.I do not know if he is a specialist in genetics

The former two are directly offending me and other people of a Kosovan background, making jokes about us being mentally ill due to the 90s war and other offensive non sense whilst using derogatory language.
The latter two are constantly making off topic and bizarre claims too, one of them being that Slavs are autochthonous in the Balkans and other non evidential non sense.

I have already reported these puppet accounts multiple times but since that is not enough I wanted to let you know about what kind of user(s) you are dealing with here.

Best regards.

[Wadabanda]

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[Wadabanda]

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[Kari]

These puppet accounts are not „newbies“, in case you have not already noticed, and are repeatedly derailing every thread on this forum.



e. g. :









The former two are directly offending me and other people of a Kosovan background, making jokes about us being mentally ill due to the 90s war and other offensive non sense whilst using derogatory language.
The latter two are constantly making off topic and bizarre claims too, one of them being that Slavs are autochthonous in the Balkans and other non evidential non sense.

I have already reported these puppet accounts multiple times but since that is not enough I wanted to let you know about what kind of user(s) you are dealing with here.

Best regards.

I just said what maciamo says wth