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Thread: Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

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    Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

    This is my theory

    Ancient Greece- J2 (34,5%), E-V13 (29%), R1b (15%), G2a (8%), T (6%), I2 (4%), R1a (2%), J1 (1,5%)
    Cycladic Civilization- J2 (36%), I2 (22%), G2a (18%), T (13%), E-V13 (11%)
    Minoan Civilization- J2 (36%), I2 (20%), G2a (16%), J1 (14%), T (11%), R1b (2%), E1b1b (1%)
    Mycenaean Civilization- J2 (35%), I2 (18%), E-V13 (17%), G2a (12%), J1 (10%), R1b (7%), T (5%), R1a (3%)
    Ancient Thrace- R1a (25,5%), I2 (21%), E-V13 (15%), R1b (12%),G2a (11%), J2 (8,5%), T (4%), J1 (3%)
    Illyria- I2 (26%), R1a (23%), E-V13 (16%), G2a (12,5%), J2 (12%), R1b (5%), T (4%), J1 (1,5%)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    This is my theory

    Ancient Greece- J2 (34,5%), E-V13 (29%), R1b (15%), G2a (8%), T (6%), I2 (4%), R1a (2%), J1 (1,5%)
    Cycladic Civilization- J2 (36%), I2 (22%), G2a (18%), T (13%), E-V13 (11%)
    Minoan Civilization- J2 (36%), I2 (20%), G2a (16%), J1 (14%), T (11%), R1b (2%), E1b1b (1%)
    Mycenaean Civilization- J2 (35%), I2 (18%), E-V13 (17%), G2a (12%), J1 (10%), R1b (7%), T (5%), R1a (3%)
    Ancient Thrace- R1a (25,5%), I2 (21%), E-V13 (15%), R1b (12%),G2a (11%), J2 (8,5%), T (4%), J1 (3%)
    Illyria- I2 (26%), R1a (23%), E-V13 (16%), G2a (12,5%), J2 (12%), R1b (5%), T (4%), J1 (1,5%)
    Why so high I2 and R1a on Illyrians and Thrace, arent does supposed to be Slavic haplogroups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    This is my theory

    Ancient Greece- J2 (34,5%), E-V13 (29%), R1b (15%), G2a (8%), T (6%), I2 (4%), R1a (2%), J1 (1,5%)
    Cycladic Civilization- J2 (36%), I2 (22%), G2a (18%), T (13%), E-V13 (11%)
    Minoan Civilization- J2 (36%), I2 (20%), G2a (16%), J1 (14%), T (11%), R1b (2%), E1b1b (1%)
    Mycenaean Civilization- J2 (35%), I2 (18%), E-V13 (17%), G2a (12%), J1 (10%), R1b (7%), T (5%), R1a (3%)
    Ancient Thrace- R1a (25,5%), I2 (21%), E-V13 (15%), R1b (12%),G2a (11%), J2 (8,5%), T (4%), J1 (3%)
    Illyria- I2 (26%), R1a (23%), E-V13 (16%), G2a (12,5%), J2 (12%), R1b (5%), T (4%), J1 (1,5%)

    Firstly, it is nearly impossible to know what the percentage of particular haplogroups were, due to most being the result of founder effects and bottlenecks. Secondly, I2a/R1a was most certainly having nothing to do with these early peoples. At least I-Y3120 & R1a-Z280/M458, which makes up nearly 100% of R1a/I2a in the Balkans. Whatever variants they carried likely went extinct. Placing J2 at 12% in Illyrians is absolutely asinine considering every single Illyrian and Proto-Illyrian male sample thus far was confirmed J2b-L283.

    The only thing we can be certain of is that some variety of J2b/J2a/E-V13/R1b and some other variety in lower amounts of E, J1, and some archaic I2a & R1a, G, and T may have been present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gedzo View Post
    Why so high I2 and R1a on Illyrians and Thrace, arent does supposed to be Slavic haplogroups?

    I2 and R1a are not slavic .............these markers are thousands of years older than slavic
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Firstly, it is nearly impossible to know what the percentage of particular haplogroups were, due to most being the result of founder effects and bottlenecks. Secondly, I2a/R1a was most certainly having nothing to do with these early peoples. At least I-Y3120 & R1a-Z280/M458, which makes up nearly 100% of R1a/I2a in the Balkans. Whatever variants they carried likely went extinct. Placing J2 at 12% in Illyrians is absolutely asinine considering every single Illyrian and Proto-Illyrian male sample thus far was confirmed J2b-L283.
    The only thing we can be certain of is that some variety of J2b/J2a/E-V13/R1b and some other variety in lower amounts of E, J1, and some archaic I2a & R1a, G, and T may have been present.
    did you see the August 2021 ancient croatian paper ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    did you see the August 2021 ancient croatian paper ?
    You're referring to the I-CTS10228 sample??

    Are you still ignoring the fact that the sample was confirmed contaminated on the fact that he was mostly modern South-West Slavic like, and also has a mtdna that only has a tmrca with others in the 18th century and formed in the 15th century of the middle ages??

    How many times are people going to bring up that sample.

    Even if it was legitimate, the distance between CTS10228 and Y3120 is in the Bronze Age.

    Yet you still twist your tongue about J2b-L283 connection with Albanians, despite overwhelming majority of confirmed Illyrian samples falling in this lineage.

    Keep coping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    You're referring to the I-CTS10228 sample??
    Are you still ignoring the fact that the sample was confirmed contaminated on the fact that he was mostly modern South-West Slavic like, and also has a mtdna that only has a tmrca with others in the 18th century and formed in the 15th century of the middle ages??
    How many times are people going to bring up that sample.
    Even if it was legitimate, the distance between CTS10228 and Y3120 is in the Bronze Age.
    Yet you still twist your tongue about J2b-L283 connection with Albanians, despite overwhelming majority of confirmed Illyrian samples falling in this lineage.
    Keep coping.
    I refer to all haplogroups in the paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    did you see the August 2021 ancient croatian paper ?
    I am not exactly sure if you know what the definition of a haplogroup is (after all you claimed T1 to be a "brother" clade of Altaic basal R1* ). There is no living basal R1a unless he is a time traveller. You constantly and purposly mix up that one basal I2a2 neolithic non Indo-European Potocari sample with Slavic I2a1-Y3120 which are completely different haplogroups.

    Also did you see that Patterson/Reich, did you see the Matthieson paper? From Posusje MBA Dalmatians to IA Illyrians all J2b-L283. Repeating the same off topic non sense won't link obvious Slavic lineages to Illyrians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Yet you still twist your tongue about J2b-L283 connection with Albanians, despite overwhelming majority of confirmed Illyrian samples falling in this lineage.

    Keep coping.
    He is a fan of the pseudo scientific fantasy that Slavs are autochthonous to the Balkans. I think he is not referring to the obviously contaminated modern Slavic sample but to one basal I2a2 non-IE sample from Slavonia, Potocari and is trying to link it to I2a1b-Slav which does not make sense whatsoever since these are different haplogroups.

    Also, J2b-L283 in antiquity does not have anything to do with the ancestors of Proto-Albanians but everything with Illyrians as we've seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    This is my theory
    Ancient Greece- J2 (34,5%), E-V13 (29%), R1b (15%), G2a (8%), T (6%), I2 (4%), R1a (2%), J1 (1,5%)
    Cycladic Civilization- J2 (36%), I2 (22%), G2a (18%), T (13%), E-V13 (11%)
    Minoan Civilization- J2 (36%), I2 (20%), G2a (16%), J1 (14%), T (11%), R1b (2%), E1b1b (1%)
    Mycenaean Civilization- J2 (35%), I2 (18%), E-V13 (17%), G2a (12%), J1 (10%), R1b (7%), T (5%), R1a (3%)
    Ancient Thrace- R1a (25,5%), I2 (21%), E-V13 (15%), R1b (12%),G2a (11%), J2 (8,5%), T (4%), J1 (3%)
    Illyria- I2 (26%), R1a (23%), E-V13 (16%), G2a (12,5%), J2 (12%), R1b (5%), T (4%), J1 (1,5%)
    The majority of the ancient Illyrian samples be it Iron Age or Proto-Illyrian MBA Dalmatian samples are J2b-L283. There are scientific papers like Patterson/Reich et. al. one should read and not post this pseudo scientific non sense

    This is yet another amateur non sense pseudo science thread but somehow no moderator is closing these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    The majority of the ancient Illyrian samples be it Iron Age or Proto-Illyrian MBA Dalmatian samples are J2b-L283. There are scientific papers like Patterson/Reich et. al. one should read and not post this pseudo scientific non sense

    This is yet another amateur non sense pseudo science thread but somehow no moderator is closing these.
    The majority of Illyrian samples aren't "Illyrian". The term Illyrian was not applied to those areas until the times of the Roman Empire.

    Maybe you should learn some basic history instead of haplobro science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    The majority of Illyrian samples aren't "Illyrian". The term Illyrian was not applied to those areas until the times of the Roman Empire.

    Maybe you should learn some basic history instead of haplobro science.
    They are Illyrian wether you like it or not and Proto-Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians. You have a vibrant imagination, I'll give you that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I am not exactly sure if you know what the definition of a haplogroup is (after all you claimed T1 to be a "brother" clade of Altaic basal R1* ). There is no living basal R1a unless he is a time traveller. You constantly and purposly mix up that one basal I2a2 neolithic non Indo-European Potocari sample with Slavic I2a1-Y3120 which are completely different haplogroups.

    Also did you see that Patterson/Reich, did you see the Matthieson paper? From Posusje MBA Dalmatians to IA Illyrians all J2b-L283. Repeating the same off topic non sense won't link obvious Slavic lineages to Illyrians.

    more like cousins of the same ydna line are Haplogroup T, L, R, P, S, O, N, S all come from the same "father" of K-M9 haplogroup


    very distant ydna haplogroups from the above are
    J
    E
    G
    I
    H

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    I am not exactly sure if you know what the definition of a haplogroup is (after all you claimed T1 to be a "brother" clade of Altaic basal R1* ). There is no living basal R1a unless he is a time traveller. You constantly and purposly mix up that one basal I2a2 neolithic non Indo-European Potocari sample with Slavic I2a1-Y3120 which are completely different haplogroups.

    Also did you see that Patterson/Reich, did you see the Matthieson paper? From Posusje MBA Dalmatians to IA Illyrians all J2b-L283. Repeating the same off topic non sense won't link obvious Slavic lineages to Illyrians.

    I was referring to his comments on G haplogroup

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    The majority of the ancient Illyrian samples be it Iron Age or Proto-Illyrian MBA Dalmatian samples are J2b-L283. There are scientific papers like Patterson/Reich et. al. one should read and not post this pseudo scientific non sense

    This is yet another amateur non sense pseudo science thread but somehow no moderator is closing these.
    1) i said THEORY
    2)The theory of the haplogroups of the Illyrians is not based on the haplogroups of the Illyrians in 2,500 BC but in 800 BC.
    3)What is your theory about the haplogroups of illyrians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Firstly, it is nearly impossible to know what the percentage of particular haplogroups were, due to most being the result of founder effects and bottlenecks. Secondly, I2a/R1a was most certainly having nothing to do with these early peoples. At least I-Y3120 & R1a-Z280/M458, which makes up nearly 100% of R1a/I2a in the Balkans. Whatever variants they carried likely went extinct. Placing J2 at 12% in Illyrians is absolutely asinine considering every single Illyrian and Proto-Illyrian male sample thus far was confirmed J2b-L283.

    The only thing we can be certain of is that some variety of J2b/J2a/E-V13/R1b and some other variety in lower amounts of E, J1, and some archaic I2a & R1a, G, and T may have been present.
    I agree that is impossible to know the exact percent of the haplogroups.But, as i said before,its a theory

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    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...9449999998&z=5

    Consider the list of reported ancient samples; it is clear that R1a/I2a-Slavic were not present in even trace amounts in the ancient Balkans. Before 300-200 BCE, I2a-Y3120 did not even exist. The I2a that existed in the pre-Bronze Age Balkans is mostly I-M223 and bears no resemblance to present South Slavs; they belong to entirely distinct branches of I2a. It is still present in very small numbers in the Balkans and is extremely rare among Slavs. I-M223 concentrations are highest in Albanians (2.5-3 percent). I-M223 has been discovered in Neolithic samples, but no IA samples have been discovered to date.

    Haplogroups should not be classified according to haplotype. "R1a" is a haplotype that dates back thousands of years. Even Romani R1a is descended from Indo-Iranian migrations. Clearly, they cannot be classified with Slavic R1a. Distinct haplogroups have distinct histories. Contrary to popular belief, they are not interchangeable.

    The term "J2" refers to a haplotype. J2b is distinct from J2a, and within J2b, J-L283 is distinct from J-M205. Within J2a, there is Neolithic J2a from Neolithic Croatia that is still found among Albanians today and Balkan J2a brought by Syriac Romans. They cannot simply be grouped together as "J2". They are quite dissimilar to one another.

    Anyone familiar with the J-L283 phylogeny realizes that Albanian J-L283 and most likely Iapodean J-L283 are "brother" branches of J-L283, which is precisely what we might anticipate of J-L283 among Illyrians, unless one believes that Illyrians were a single little subclade of J-L283. Albanians have a high level of variation in J-L283, making it inevitable that J-L283 samples obtained in the Balkans will correspond to their subclades. Likewise, this is true for E-V13. It will be quite difficult to locate E-V13 in the ancient Balkans that is distinct from the Albanian clades.
    Clearly, the thread is flawed, with figures that make no sense. According to what we know, the five major haplogroups of the ancient Balkans are as follows (in alphabetical order): E-V13, G-P15, J-L283, J-M410, and R-M269.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...9449999998&z=5

    Consider the list of reported ancient samples; it is clear that R1a/I2a-Slavic were not present in even trace amounts in the ancient Balkans. Before 300-200 BCE, I2a-Y3120 did not even exist. The I2a that existed in the pre-Bronze Age Balkans is mostly I-M223 and bears no resemblance to present South Slavs; they belong to entirely distinct branches of I2a. It is still present in very small numbers in the Balkans and is extremely rare among Slavs. I-M223 concentrations are highest in Albanians (2.5-3 percent). I-M223 has been discovered in Neolithic samples, but no IA samples have been discovered to date.

    Haplogroups should not be classified according to haplotype. "R1a" is a haplotype that dates back thousands of years. Even Romani R1a is descended from Indo-Iranian migrations. Clearly, they cannot be classified with Slavic R1a. Distinct haplogroups have distinct histories. Contrary to popular belief, they are not interchangeable.

    The term "J2" refers to a haplotype. J2b is distinct from J2a, and within J2b, J-L283 is distinct from J-M205. Within J2a, there is Neolithic J2a from Neolithic Croatia that is still found among Albanians today and Balkan J2a brought by Syriac Romans. They cannot simply be grouped together as "J2". They are quite dissimilar to one another.

    Anyone familiar with the J-L283 phylogeny realizes that Albanian J-L283 and most likely Iapodean J-L283 are "brother" branches of J-L283, which is precisely what we might anticipate of J-L283 among Illyrians, unless one believes that Illyrians were a single little subclade of J-L283. Albanians have a high level of variation in J-L283, making it inevitable that J-L283 samples obtained in the Balkans will correspond to their subclades. Likewise, this is true for E-V13. It will be quite difficult to locate E-V13 in the ancient Balkans that is distinct from the Albanian clades.
    Clearly, the thread is flawed, with figures that make no sense. According to what we know, the five major haplogroups of the ancient Balkans are as follows (in alphabetical order): E-V13, G-P15, J-L283, J-M410, and R-M269.

    and G2a2, T1a, C1a2 neolithic
    I2a2 from 2400BC

    and many more

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    1) i said THEORY
    2)The theory of the haplogroups of the Illyrians is not based on the haplogroups of the Illyrians in 2,500 BC but in 800 BC.
    3)What is your theory about the haplogroups of illyrians?
    He thinks the Illyrians bordering Greeks are all 90% J2B2 and "Spanish-like", because that's how DNA works.

    You live for 2000 years next to someone and intermix with them, but you're magically very different genetically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    They are Illyrian wether you like it or not and Proto-Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians. You have a vibrant imagination, I'll give you that.
    Yeah Copernicus. All those new ancient Greek samples fell exactly in that red graph box I concocted months ago. Stop staying stupid crap before you look like an even bigger fool.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...9449999998&z=5

    Consider the list of reported ancient samples; it is clear that R1a/I2a-Slavic were not present in even trace amounts in the ancient Balkans. Before 300-200 BCE, I2a-Y3120 did not even exist. The I2a that existed in the pre-Bronze Age Balkans is mostly I-M223 and bears no resemblance to present South Slavs; they belong to entirely distinct branches of I2a. It is still present in very small numbers in the Balkans and is extremely rare among Slavs. I-M223 concentrations are highest in Albanians (2.5-3 percent). I-M223 has been discovered in Neolithic samples, but no IA samples have been discovered to date.

    Haplogroups should not be classified according to haplotype. "R1a" is a haplotype that dates back thousands of years. Even Romani R1a is descended from Indo-Iranian migrations. Clearly, they cannot be classified with Slavic R1a. Distinct haplogroups have distinct histories. Contrary to popular belief, they are not interchangeable.

    The term "J2" refers to a haplotype. J2b is distinct from J2a, and within J2b, J-L283 is distinct from J-M205. Within J2a, there is Neolithic J2a from Neolithic Croatia that is still found among Albanians today and Balkan J2a brought by Syriac Romans. They cannot simply be grouped together as "J2". They are quite dissimilar to one another.

    Anyone familiar with the J-L283 phylogeny realizes that Albanian J-L283 and most likely Iapodean J-L283 are "brother" branches of J-L283, which is precisely what we might anticipate of J-L283 among Illyrians, unless one believes that Illyrians were a single little subclade of J-L283. Albanians have a high level of variation in J-L283, making it inevitable that J-L283 samples obtained in the Balkans will correspond to their subclades. Likewise, this is true for E-V13. It will be quite difficult to locate E-V13 in the ancient Balkans that is distinct from the Albanian clades.
    Clearly, the thread is flawed, with figures that make no sense. According to what we know, the five major haplogroups of the ancient Balkans are as follows (in alphabetical order): E-V13, G-P15, J-L283, J-M410, and R-M269.

    I do not see any J-L283 in Montenegro or Albania



    I see it in Italy and Hungaria as well as croatia , Slovenia

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    Consider the list of reported ancient samples; it is clear that R1a/I2a-Slavic were not present in even trace amounts in the ancient Balkans. Before 300-200 BCE, I2a-Y3120 did not even exist. The I2a that existed in the pre-Bronze Age Balkans is mostly I-M223 and bears no resemblance to present South Slavs; they belong to entirely distinct branches of I2a. It is still present in very small numbers in the Balkans and is extremely rare among Slavs. I-M223 concentrations are highest in Albanians (2.5-3 percent). I-M223 has been discovered in Neolithic samples, but no IA samples have been discovered to date.
    Haplogroups should not be classified according to haplotype. "R1a" is a haplotype that dates back thousands of years. Even Romani R1a is descended from Indo-Iranian migrations. Clearly, they cannot be classified with Slavic R1a. Distinct haplogroups have distinct histories. Contrary to popular belief, they are not interchangeable.
    The term "J2" refers to a haplotype. J2b is distinct from J2a, and within J2b, J-L283 is distinct from J-M205. Within J2a, there is Neolithic J2a from Neolithic Croatia that is still found among Albanians today and Balkan J2a brought by Syriac Romans. They cannot simply be grouped together as "J2". They are quite dissimilar to one another.
    Anyone familiar with the J-L283 phylogeny realizes that Albanian J-L283 and most likely Iapodean J-L283 are "brother" branches of J-L283, which is precisely what we might anticipate of J-L283 among Illyrians, unless one believes that Illyrians were a single little subclade of J-L283. Albanians have a high level of variation in J-L283, making it inevitable that J-L283 samples obtained in the Balkans will correspond to their subclades. Likewise, this is true for E-V13. It will be quite difficult to locate E-V13 in the ancient Balkans that is distinct from the Albanian clades.
    Clearly, the thread is flawed, with figures that make no sense. According to what we know, the five major haplogroups of the ancient Balkans are as follows (in alphabetical order): E-V13, G-P15, J-L283, J-M410, and R-M269.[/QUOTE]


    There are 3 R1a samples in bulgaria before 1500bc:R1a-Z93 x2 and R1a-M459
    There are 6 I2 samples in bulgaria before 1600bc: I2-S12195, I2-L702, I2-L621, I2-P215 and I2-Y87044

    (The message above the samples is not mine)

  23. #23
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    1) i said THEORY
    2)The theory of the haplogroups of the Illyrians is not based on the haplogroups of the Illyrians in 2,500 BC but in 800 BC.
    3)What is your theory about the haplogroups of illyrians?
    Illyrians are an IE group of people they show a continuity from Middle Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture (those are J2b-L283) and the Classical Iron Age Illyrians are J2b-L283 heavy.

    If you choose to deny scientific papers like Patterson/Reich, Matthieson etc. then that is your problem not anyone else's.

  24. #24
    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...9449999998&z=5

    Consider the list of reported ancient samples; it is clear that R1a/I2a-Slavic were not present in even trace amounts in the ancient Balkans. Before 300-200 BCE, I2a-Y3120 did not even exist. The I2a that existed in the pre-Bronze Age Balkans is mostly I-M223 and bears no resemblance to present South Slavs; they belong to entirely distinct branches of I2a. It is still present in very small numbers in the Balkans and is extremely rare among Slavs. I-M223 concentrations are highest in Albanians (2.5-3 percent). I-M223 has been discovered in Neolithic samples, but no IA samples have been discovered to date.

    Anyone familiar with the J-L283 phylogeny realizes that Albanian J-L283 and most likely Iapodean J-L283 are "brother" branches of J-L283, which is precisely what we might anticipate of J-L283 among Illyrians, unless one believes that Illyrians were a single little subclade of J-L283. Albanians have a high level of variation in J-L283, making it inevitable that J-L283 samples obtained in the Balkans will correspond to their subclades. Likewise, this is true for E-V13. It will be quite difficult to locate E-V13 in the ancient Balkans that is distinct from the Albanian clades.
    Clearly, the thread is flawed, with figures that make no sense. According to what we know, the five major haplogroups of the ancient Balkans are as follows (in alphabetical order): E-V13, G-P15, J-L283, J-M410, and R-M269.
    Non sense. J2b-L283 has nothing to do with Proto-Albanians. Second of all the South Dalmatian Posusje samples are harbingers as to what is to be expected from even more southern regions.

    There is no E1b-V13 in BA and most definitely not among Classical Illyrians. This is an Albanian nationalistic obsession of you.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Illyrians are an IE group of people they show a continuity from Middle Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture (those are J2b-L283) and the Classical Iron Age Illyrians are J2b-L283 heavy.
    If you choose to deny scientific papers like Patterson/Reich, Matthieson etc. then that is your problem not anyone else's.
    Send me a link of their scientific papers.I want your opinion about the percentage of J2 on the illyrians.I am not in this forum to promote nationalistic ideas

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