Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

[1337]

There is also a total lack of EV-13 among Illyrian samples so far. Southern Albania was settled by various people through different waves. Except for the dialect split there were also Vlach and later Gheg migrations. Your comparison of J2b2 with EV-13 to southern Albania to me makes no sense. Also J2b2 which is a strong Illyrian marker so far does not even seem to peak in Central Albania neither in Tirana nor any close areas rrenjet.com/statistikat/

J2b2-L283 actually peaks in the Malsi / Kosovo . Of course it could be a bottle neck like anything else.

Reality is that we don't really know where Proto-Albanians originated for certain , we only know the name comes from a tribe in Albania . And the people that live there today have a strong affinity to EV-13 and some other markers it seems, they cluster more Greek-like but this is not the case for all Albanians, some almost cluster like Sicilians if you go more south and some more North Italian, Tuscan etc.... but there is none so far that clusters West like those samples in Croatia so there obviously was a Eastern shift in the South Balkans at least. We have hundreds of years before the Roman period and the end of Classical Greece. And then we have hundreds of years of the Roman period. Anything could of changed and also changed. Right before the Roman occupation many of the areas in Northern Albania, Montenegro etc were actually occupied by the same or related tribes that became power bases before Roman conquest. This might not of always been the case. Dwelling into some autosomal clustering seems meaningless.


Of course, there is also the question of Slavic influence.

 

[1337]

Yeah Copernicus. All those new ancient Greek samples fell exactly in that red graph box I concocted months ago. Stop staying stupid crap before you look like an even bigger fool.

But those samples don't even cluster like Greek or Albanian populations, they are more south ? Where is the evidence that only Slavic ancestry shifted people more north rather than some more North-Italian like derived ancestry for example such as the samples from Croatia ?

And wasn't the Logos sample that was close to a Kosovo Albanian in Northern Greece ? Now imagine samples in Northern Albania ?


To make everything shorter here so I dont' write a bunch of wall of text again, my point here is that the Illyrians that settled Albania were people that originated from the Glasinac, Bosnia, Croatia etc, and they probably clustered North Italian like. At one point most likely became more East shifted and more Southern but nothing suggests that this autosomal DNA was entirely washed out and that all Southern Illyrians clustered like those Ancient Greeks, maybe like modern Greeks, Tuscans, North-East Italians etc . So to say that they are not ancestral is completely nonsense. Albanians definitely do not derive from mainly populations that clustered that SOUTH.


If this is what you're saying, that proto-Albanians and Southern Illyrians clustered as South as some of those Ancient Greek samples then Ancient DNA is eventually going to debunk you , I don't even need to waste my time here. There are Tosks who almost cluster like Sicilians and the IA sample from Bulgaria even clustered very south and it's indeed possible some people clustered that south but to say that this was the main ancestral is nonsense.

We don't even know how much Slavic influence there has been for sure. And that PCA map is completely nonsense , it shows Albanians as more West and the IA/BA as more East together with Balkan Slavs when both Albanian populations and those IA/BA samples are more West than Balkan Slavs in general

 

[enter_tain]

But those samples don't even cluster like Greek or Albanian populations, they are more south ? Where is the evidence that only Slavic ancestry shifted people more north rather than some more North-Italian like derived ancestry for example such as the samples from Croatia ?

And wasn't the Logos sample that was close to a Kosovo Albanian in Northern Greece ? Now imagine samples in Northern Albania ?


To make everything shorter here so I dont' write a bunch of wall of text again, my point here is that the Illyrians that settled Albania were people that originated from the Glasinac, Bosnia, Croatia etc, and they probably clustered North Italian like. At one point most likely became more East shifted and more Southern but nothing suggests that this autosomal DNA was entirely washed out and that all Southern Illyrians clustered like those Ancient Greeks, maybe like modern Greeks, Tuscans, North-East Italians etc . So to say that they are not ancestral is completely nonsense. Albanians definitely do not derive from mainly populations that clustered that SOUTH.


If this is what you're saying, that proto-Albanians and Southern Illyrians clustered as South as some of those Ancient Greek samples then Ancient DNA is eventually going to debunk you , I don't even need to waste my time here. There are Tosks who almost cluster like Sicilians and the IA sample from Bulgaria even clustered very south and it's indeed possible some people clustered that south but to say that this was the main ancestral is nonsense.

We don't even know how much Slavic influence there has been for sure.

Dude they're on a cline towards "Ukraine". The other study was on a cline towards "Russia". If you add extra Slavic ancestry to a population you go up that cline.

And we know for a fact there is extra Slavic ancestry. We've had countless studies on it.

 

[1337]

that PCA map is completely nonsense , it shows Albanians as more West and some of the IA/BA Balkans as more East together with Balkan Slavs when both Albanian populations and those IA/BA samples are more West than Balkan Slavs in general

The PCA MAP makes no sense.

 

[1337]

You have to be pretty clueless to think that proto-Albanians clustered that SOUTH. This would literally make some people almost 50% Slavic or more. Some Balkan Slavs would even turn out more Slavic. The distance is almost the same as Balkan Slavs are to Ukrainians.

The Mat district is an interesting region in studying the origin or survival of Albanians. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mat_District

It was closer to Dardania than to Epirus, Greece or Southern Albania anyway. It explains the low level of Greek influence in the Albanian language and more Latin.

Plains are also more fertile. The Albanoi inscriptions show such movements occurred into the plains even back then. (if we even came from that tribe) , 'Albanos' is also mentioned in Macedonia in Greek inscriptions south of the Jirecek and there is Arbaios in Southern Albania in Greek (Like I mentioned earlier)

This is not to say that Albanians never lived in any areas but what survived of Illyrian and that turned into Albanian happened in an area where Latin was more spoken but in a way that the people weren't Romanized.

 

[enter_tain]

You have to be pretty clueless to think that proto-Albanians clustered that SOUTH.

You have to be pretty clueless to think otherwise. There was an entire paper of this. We know Albania has Slavic/Gothic ancestry, which shifted it north of the Middle Ages.

You remove all the R1a, I2, I1, etc...-related DNA and Albanians will go more south than they are now. Modern Albanians plot exactly with modern Greeks. No reason to think ancient Albanians would be different than mainland ancient Greeks autosomally.

 

[enter_tain]

Just add a bit of Russian-like DNA to ancient Greek samples and you get modern Albanians/Greeks.

 

[1337]

Albanian language shows more Latin influence rather than Greek, suggesting a more intense contact with Latin speaking areas during the Roman period (Dardania, Northern Albania) and shows similarities with Romanian and Aromanian. Nish, Shtip, Shkup, Lezha, Durres, Shkodra, Mat, Shar, Drin, Shkumbin etc show Albanian influence or follow changes common in Albanian. The Mat or some area in Northern Albania might of been a strong hold of a non-Romanized population. Some historians suggest a homeland between Mat and Nish (Naissus) during the Roman period.

Of course these are just theories and we will never know the truth for sure. But I have seen several people mention this including some historians and linguists that have written on Romanian. But if Albanians lived in an area, or overlapping area, between the Greek speaking and Latin speaking parts during the Roman period it certainly does not explain why the Albanian language mostly picked up Latin during Roman period rather than Greek.

It's interesting how you really seem to have this idea that the people in some modern artificially created borders such as Albania were in ancient times ''different'' than the rest of Yugoslavia and supposedly closer to Greece while I showed you the same or related tribes inhabited both Albania and Yugoslavia prior to the Romans.

 

[1337]

For example the Shkumbin river or some place in central Albania was apparently a border between the Latin and Greek speaking world yet Albanian shows mostly Latin suggesting more contact with Latin speaking areas. Epirus Nova was also under Greek influence at one point.

Also most linguists put the dialect split in 600-400 AD. (Which could of happened when Albanians arrived into Albania if Albanian language wasn't developed there) . The supposed oldest settlements in Mat date to a similar time frame. The name 'Albanoi' could of survived and been picked up.

This is why I say we will never know these things for sure but you seem to be driven by an agenda.

 

[torzio]

For example the Shkumbin river or some place in central Albania was apparently a border between the Latin and Greek speaking world yet Albanian shows mostly Latin suggesting more contact with Latin speaking areas. Epirus Nova was also under Greek influence at one point.

Also most linguists put the dialect split in 600-400 AD. (Which could of happened when Albanians arrived into Albania if Albanian language wasn't developed there) . The supposed oldest settlements in Mat date to a similar time frame. The name 'Albanoi' could of survived and been picked up.

This is why I say we will never know these things for sure but you seem to be driven by an agenda.

Durres had to be Latin as it was a major trade city

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Egnatia

 

[1337]

Except for the Mat district, the Lezhe, Diber, Durres county and Mirdita is also a good candidate for one of the proto-Albanian homeland within Albania

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirditë_District

That samples are supposed to appear ''Mycenean like'' the minute one crosses over to Albania seems nonsense. The people that cluster that south are either mostly people that are from southern Albania or some southern Ghegs that seem to be very atypical for Ghegs.

There was also a sample from Italy from the Iron Age that clustered similar to some of these Albanians on that PCA Map , if a sample from Italy can cluster like that why not samples from Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia etc ? Even that sample in Northern Greece was pretty north like a Kosovar Albanian.

 

[Riverman]

If there any correlatoin of yDNA with plotting in Albanians? Like the E-V13 heavy Kosovans more Northern shifted? Other E-V13 provinces in the same direction or different etc.

 

[Olti27]

The reason why albanian picked up more latin than greek is not related much to geography. It is the same reason why the indians picked up more english than chinese or persian even though the British were living far away.

 

[1337]

I agree btw that Albanians clustering like Greeks, Tuscans etc suggests an origin close to the Ancient Greek border but based on the language it was in a Latin speaking area north of the jirecek or just north of it. Christian teachings were taught in Latin for example. It was possibly an area between Dardania and Ancient Greece somewhere in North/Central Albania where this stronghold was and where the dialect split occurred. that's why you have people ranging from appearing North East-Italian like, to Greek to Tuscan etc.

It's also interesting because IBD sharing show a lot of common ancestors with 1500 years suggesting having spread from a small area but past 1500 years the IBD sharing is normal , which suggests there was a contraction (fits with the Slavic incursions and dialect split) and then an extraction again.

 

[1337]

Principality of Arbanon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Arbanon ,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krujë

Though the dialect split had already occurred, Despotate of Epirus for example had an Albanian population but was under foreign rule, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_Epirus , Kosovo and Macedonia during this period was under Bulgarian rule , and still had not entirely been conquered by the Serbs.

Western Macedonia apparently was held by an Albanian principality later.

 

[Riverman]

I agree btw that Albanians clustering like Greeks, Tuscans etc suggests an origin close to the Ancient Greek border but based on the language it was in a Latin speaking area north of the jirecek or just north of it. Christian teachings were taught in Latin for example. It was possibly an area between Dardania and Ancient Greece somewhere in North/Central Albania where this stronghold was and where the dialect split occurred. that's why you have people ranging from appearing North East-Italian like, to Greek to Tuscan etc.

It's also interesting because IBD sharing show a lot of common ancestors with 1500 years suggesting having spread from a small area but past 1500 years the IBD sharing is normal , which suggests there was a contraction (fits with the Slavic incursions and dialect split) and then an extraction again.

Everything considered a Dardanian origin story is still the most likely, because they had both Illyrian and Thracian (from Channelled Ware/Psenichevo-Basarabi/E-V13) elements, which would account for combination the Proto-Albanian core is supposed to have had.

The migrations shown on this map are possibly interesting to verify and measure:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-db0b7b1b0283ad1de3a90923834496f2-pjlq

 

[Hawk]

Channeled-Ware/Gava shouldn't exclusively be linked with Thracians btw, there might be Western Channeled-Ware people who might have shared same ancestry as Thracians except having less Iranic influence in comparison with Geto-Thracians.

Also, i believe Z5018/Z5017 is to be linked with the Channeled-Ware phenomena, non Z5018/Z5017 E-V13-ers could have been present among Vatina, Brnjica but they weren't as successful in spreading as Z5017/Z5018. And, it's likely that Z5017/Z5018 were Indo-European speakers while the rest could have spoken some sort of Southern Tell Cultures language, Neolithic survivor.

 

[1337]

Here is your ''Mycenean'' sample

Distance to: Greece_Logkas_MBA:

4.89615155 Albanian_Kosovo
5.93014334 Italian_Romagna
6.09094410 Macedonian_Central
6.41718786 Torbesh
6.62554149 Italian_Emilia
6.65923419 Italian_Tuscany
6.94583328 Albanian_North_Albania
7.01688677 Albanian_Montenegro
7.06844396 Albanian_Macedonia
7.09947181 Albanian_South_Albania
7.14357754 Macedonian_East
7.15119570 Italian_Umbria
7.15253102 Greek_Laconia_Karitsa
7.18699520 Macedonian_South
7.31719208 Greek_Thessaly
7.60623429 Italian_Liguria
7.65052939 Italian_Marche
7.75949741 Italian_Lazio
7.78777247 Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
8.04773260 Albanian_Central_Albania
8.11820177 Bulgarian_Moldova
8.17136464 Aromanian
8.25806878 Greek_Florina
8.25960653 Greek_Euboea_South
8.27143277 Italian_Veneto


How on earth could you possibly believe that those Ancient Greek samples plotted on that PCA map are representatives of Southern Illyrians, Macedonians etc ?


This would literally make many people 50% Slavic dude.


We got those samples in Croatia that are more north and west too and I imagine such genetic combination must of been inherited to some extent rather than entirely disappeared.

 

[Riverman]

Channeled-Ware/Gava shouldn't exclusively be linked with Thracians btw, there might be Western Channeled-Ware people who might have shared same ancestry as Thracians except having less Iranic influence in comparison with Geto-Thracians.

Also, i believe Z5018/Z5017 is to be linked with the Channeled-Ware phenomena, non Z5018/Z5017 E-V13-ers could have been present among Vatina, Brnjica but they weren't as successful in spreading as Z5017/Z5018. And, it's likely that Z5017/Z5018 were Indo-European speakers while the rest could have spoken some sort of Southern Tell Cultures language, Neolithic survivor.

It's possible. But while I'm sure about E-Z5018 and E-Z5017 being spread by Channelled Ware people, every other group needs to be looked at on its own right.

 

[MOESAN]

A lot of unprecisions on both sides! Typically a no-end discussion by people with apparently emotional feelings concerning pigmentation (and sentimental assimilation of ancient pop's to modern ethnies?) pushing us far from the very topic, or am I wrong?