Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

[1337]

The majority of Illyrian samples aren't "Illyrian". The term Illyrian was not applied to those areas until the times of the Roman Empire.

Maybe you should learn some basic history instead of haplobro science.

It was applied before that actually by the Greeks referring to tribes north of them. Although it's true the term came to be more used during the Roman period. And how are they not Illyrian ? That's where Illyrians lived. Strabo referred to them as Illyrians. Maybe proto-Illyrians then would be the right term. There is also cultural material. And there were Celts, Thracians and other people that settled there too.


It's also funny how the guy claims J2b2-L283 is not linked to proto-Albanians when it actually is.

 

[1337]

Apologies "Neo-Illyrian". I forgot that you are not an Albanian, but a man living in a fantasy world.

The guy is obviously not Albanian but some minority who has tested for an Albanian Y-DNA or maybe something related. Or maybe just some fake profile. You always have these kind of people who test for a certain Y-DNA and then develop all these coping theories instead of just facing the truth and ironically accuse others of being nationalists.

Proto-Albanians were also EV-13 and R1b-BY611. I mean, regardless of weather proto-Albanians were EV-13, J2b2-L283 or R1b (Or all three) or even if any of these was picked up during the Roman period or before, they must of been part of proto-Albanians before the Slavic migrations most likely which makes them proto-Albanian markers.

So far there is at least J2b2 and R1b in the ancient West Balkans and apparently ancestral clade of EV-13.

 

[1337]

mount123 is a Serbian member from TheApricity I believe or some other Slavic minority. I know his username there.

Yeah, it's pretty much shaping like J2b-L283 subclades played an important role in the ethnogenesis of the Illyrians, just like some of us predicted some time ago and before we had all these aDNA samples.
Actually, since this Iapygian/Messapian sample (NEO806) is he is closer to the Hoti clan, who are under CTS11100>Y166564, and the FT29003 cluster observed in southeastern Gegëria which user Archetype0ne belongs to.
The Kastrati clan are under PH4679>>PH1751, so like Krasniqi/Nikaj clans and me

Debunks the whole ''Cretan origin'' of the Messapians I guess

Cultural material also already suggested an Illyrian origin for Messapians and not Cretan (as claimed by Strabo or was it some other historian ? )

Strabo also claimed the Epirotes were non-Greeks while others described them as Greek for example. Though it's possible some Cretans settled Italy together with Illyrians.

 

[enter_tain]

It was applied before that actually by the Greeks referring to tribes north of them. Although it's true the term came to be more used during the Roman period. And how are they not Illyrian ? That's where Illyrians lived. Strabo referred to them as Illyrians. Maybe proto-Illyrians then would be the right term. There is also cultural material. And there were Celts, Thracians and other people that settled there too.


It's also funny how the guy claims J2b2-L283 is not linked to proto-Albanians when it actually is.

No, as in during the times of those samples (EBA to EIA) in Croatia, they were not called Illyrian. First mentions of Illyrians we hear are Greeks calling people in Albania Illyria during the time of Classical Greece.

The areas of former Yugoslavia were only called Illyrian after the Romans came over to the Balkans after the period of Classical Greece. They were probably distant cousins or something like that, but it's not the "core" Illyrians.

 

[Dibran]

The guy is obviously not Albanian but some minority who has tested for an Albanian Y-DNA or maybe something related. Or maybe just some fake profile. You always have these kind of people who test for a certain Y-DNA and then develop all these coping theories instead of just facing the truth and ironically accuse others of being nationalists.

Proto-Albanians were also EV-13 and R1b-BY611. I mean, regardless of weather proto-Albanians were EV-13, J2b2-L283 or R1b (Or all three) or even if any of these was picked up during the Roman period or before, they must of been part of proto-Albanians before the Slavic migrations most likely which makes them proto-Albanian markers.

So far there is at least J2b2 and R1b in the ancient West Balkans and apparently ancestral clade of EV-13.

He identifies as "Kosovan" like some of these other Albanian youth from Kosove, who act like we are two different ethnicities.

 

[1337]

He identifies as "Kosovan" like some of these other Albanian youth from Kosove, who act like we are two different ethnicities.

If that's true then the guy is obviously mentally disturbed. Thought he was some Balkan Slav troll.

 

[Dibran]

If that's true then the guy is obviously mentally disturbed. Thought he was some Balkan Slav troll.

Yea, lol. Idk why that is becoming a thing now. He is not the first person I have met who says "I am not Albanian, I am Kosovan".

 

[1337]

No, as in during the times of those samples (EBA to EIA) in Croatia, they were not called Illyrian. First mentions of Illyrians we hear are Greeks calling people in Albania Illyria during the time of Classical Greece.

The areas of former Yugoslavia were only called Illyrian after the Romans came over to the Balkans after the period of Classical Greece. They were probably distant cousins or something like that, but it's not the "core" Illyrians.

Yugoslavia and Albania included the same or related tribes before the Roman period

The Ardiaei were an Illyrian people residing on territory of present-day Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia between Adriatic coast on the south, Konjic on the north, along the Neretva river and its right bank on the west, extending to Lake Shkodra to the southeast. From the 3rd century BC to 168 BC the capital cities of the Ardiaean State were Rhizon and Scodra.

The Labeatae, Labeatai or Labeates (Ancient Greek: Λαβεᾶται; Latin: Labeatae) were an Illyrian people that lived on the Adriatic coast of southern Illyria, between modern Albania and Montenegro, around Lake Scodra (the ancient Lacus Labeatis).
Their territory, which was called Labeatis in classical antiquity, seems to have stretched from Lissus at the river Drin in the south, or probably even from the valley of Mat, up to Meteon in the north. Their centre and main stronghold was Skodra, which during the last period of the Illyrian kingdom was the capital city.

In Greek mythology 'Illyrius' is the ancestor of Illyrians.

The Indo-Europeans that settled Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro etc during the Iron Age / Bronze Age were the same people that settled Albania, Kosovo, Southern Italy etc.

Although it's completely nonsense that 'Illyricum' was the core area of Illyrians and that the tribes dwelling south were different like that guy claims in some posts of his. Illyricum was a region created by the Romans. However, the term Illyrian was first used by Greeks to refer to people especially in Southern Yugoslavia and Albania.

 

[torzio]

It was applied before that actually by the Greeks referring to tribes north of them. Although it's true the term came to be more used during the Roman period. And how are they not Illyrian ? That's where Illyrians lived. Strabo referred to them as Illyrians. Maybe proto-Illyrians then would be the right term. There is also cultural material. And there were Celts, Thracians and other people that settled there too.


It's also funny how the guy claims J2b2-L283 is not linked to proto-Albanians when it actually is.

Strabo refers to 2 groups of Illyrians ..............on map below.....2.1 = Illyrians of the interior and 2.2 as maritime Illyrians

 

[1337]

For example, the Taulantii, an Illyrian tribe in modern Albania are said to of allied with the Dardani

In the well attested historical period, the Taulantian kingdom seems to have reached its apex during Glaukias rule, in the years between 335 BC and 302 BC. Glaucias had entered into an alliance and joined the cause of another Illyrian dynast, Cleitus son of Bardylis, against Alexander the great, in the siege of Pelium (335 BC). However, they were both defeated and Cleitus was forced to take refuge within the Taulantian territories.

I certainly wouldn't take the description of all these supposed ancient authors very serious. Although the name Illyrian came to be applied to all the people of the Western Balkans by Greek authors during the transition period into the Roman period.

 

[torzio]

For example, the Taulantii, an Illyrian tribe in modern Albania are said to of allied with the Dardani




I certainly wouldn't take the description of all these supposed ancient authors very serious. Although the name Illyrian came to be applied to all the people of the Western Balkans by Greek authors during the transition period into the Roman period.

The Taulantii was originally a montengrian illyrian tribe...........they pushed out the Indigenous Bryges out of Albania.........but they had no coastal towns as Durres and Appolnia remained Corinthian Greek until the Roman occupation

The earliest mentions of the Bryges are contained in the historical writings of Herodotus, who relates them to Phrygians, stating that according to the Macedonians, the Bryges “changed their name” to Phryges after migrating into Anatolia, a movement which is thought to have happened between 1200 BC and 800 BC perhaps due to the Bronze Age collapse, particularly the fall of the Hittite Empire and the power vacuum that was created. In the Balkans, the Bryges occupied central Albania and northern Epirus, as well as Macedonia, mainly west of the Axios river, but also Mygdonia, which was conquered by the kingdom of Macedon in the early 5th century BC. They seem to have lived peacefully next to the inhabitants of Macedonia, however, Eugammon in his Telegony, drawing upon earlier epic traditions, mentions that Odysseus commanded the Epirotian Thesprotians against the Bryges. Small groups of Bryges, after the migration to Anatolia and the expansion of the kingdom of Macedon, were still left in northern Pelagonia and around Epidamnus.

 

[enter_tain]

Yea, lol. Idk why that is becoming a thing now. He is not the first person I have met who says "I am not Albanian, I am Kosovan".

You can notice it in his rhetoric. I mention that the name Albanian comes from an Illyrian tribe, which no one denies, and he says "it's propaganda".

A lot of these "Kosovars" are trying to make up their own history about some mythical EV-13 tribe from Dardania or something

Let's ignore that all the Balkans have a lot of EV-13 including Greeks.

 

[enter_tain]

Yugoslavia and Albania included the same or related tribes before the Roman period







In Greek mythology 'Illyrius' is the ancestor of Illyrians.

The Indo-Europeans that settled Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro etc during the Iron Age / Bronze Age were the same people that settled Albania, Kosovo, Southern Italy etc.

Although it's completely nonsense that 'Illyricum' was the core area of Illyrians and that the tribes dwelling south were different like that guy claims in some posts of his. Illyricum was a region created by the Romans. However, the term Illyrian was first used by Greeks to refer to people especially in Southern Yugoslavia and Albania.

"The Ardiaei are attested since the 3rd century BC." That's after Classical Greece. At this point some tribes like the Taulantii don't even exist anymore. They were famous for Teuta fighting the Romans and pirating.

 

[Hawk]

Looks like taina created yet another troll account, shameless lol, especially when he replies between his accounts like giving the impression that they disagree.

 

[1337]

"The Ardiaei are attested since the 3rd century BC." That's after Classical Greece. At this point some tribes like the Taulantii don't even exist anymore. They were famous for Teuta fighting the Romans and pirating.

It's still before the Roman period. Most of these tribes were power houses before the Roman period. The name Illyrian being first mentioned in Albania is the first attestation of the name and the name also appears in Greek mythology, and the name later was also applied to some tribes between Montenegro and Albania (and later came to be applied to all the tribes of the Western Balkans), however, this doesn't automatically mean that other tribes weren't Illyrian. It's just the attestation of the name. Just because those other tribes weren't mentioned as Illyrian doesn't mean they weren't Illyrian. Also, it's just the origin of the name itself, doesn't define what was the core area or what separated or connected these tribes. Just some name that originated somewhere in Albania that came to be applied to some related tribes basically. And they developed before the Roman period.

Also many of these ancient authors weren't right about everything they wrote. Some tribes which they claimed as Illyrian were Thracian and vice versa.

I am not sure where you are trying to go with this. You claimed the samples in Croatia were not Illyrian and you claimed there was some ''core area'' , but this is simply based on some name which over time changed. It seems logical to me that the tribes that lived the closest to each other (Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo etc) were historically the closest related, and that the name came to be applied even to more distant related tribes that were geographically further away during transition into the Roman period.

 

[1337]

You can notice it in his rhetoric. I mention that the name Albanian comes from an Illyrian tribe, which no one denies, and he says "it's propaganda".

A lot of these "Kosovars" are trying to make up their own history about some mythical EV-13 tribe from Dardania or something

Let's ignore that all the Balkans have a lot of EV-13 including Greeks.

It's also an Illyrian name in general that appears in many places in Illyria or similar sounding names. You also have the name 'Arba' in Croatia for example. Which in Slavic was turned into 'Rab' , this is the same thing that happened with 'Arbanon' where Serbs turned into 'Raban' . Albanoi also do appear in Dardania during the Roman period.

Anyway, I am not sure where you are going with this. You claimed that tribes in Yugoslavia weren't Illyrian before the Roman period while I just showed you that they were in fact the same or related tribes that held regions in Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo etc. before Roman occupation. Those same regions that you claimed was ''core Illyrian'' .

Your idea of ''core Illyrian'' is basically just some historical attestation of some name during the Classical Greece and when these tribes were forming or still hadn't fully formed. Ancient authors weren't always right either. For example, I see on wiki it is claimed that tribes on Adriatic were separated at one point from ''Illyrians'' by ancient authors (whoever these Illyrians were supposed to be) the book is quoted from Wilkes, a guy who claimed a lot of nonsense, yet it's obvious that the tribes before Roman occupation that occupied the Adriatic were the same or related tribes as the other ones. Would be more logic that the tribes that lived the furthest away would of been separated from other tribes regardless if they lived on the Adriatic or not. And that before the Roman period these tribes came historically in more intense contact with each other and possibly developed from there. From the period of the classical Greece and after these tribes and people could of also changed and how similar or different they were changed.

The Dardani also existed during Classical Greece, their territory stretched into Albania, Epirus and even Macedonia at one point. Appian mentioned them as Illyrian later. And the Taulantii existed too.


Cultural and genetic material also suggests the same people that settled Yugoslavia during Iron Age / Bronze Age were the same that settled Albania.

 

[1337]

It's not only ''Kosovars'' who believe in that whole mythical EV-13 Dardanian origin, I have even seen some people from Albania here spread this nonsense. And I am definitely not that guy's sock if you are referring to me .

I was just reading on Dardanians and I cannot help but laugh at how delusional Serbs are that claim that place and monopolize it , there is just so much battles and history there before and after Serbs. It's hilarious.

 

[torzio]

"The Ardiaei are attested since the 3rd century BC." That's after Classical Greece. At this point some tribes like the Taulantii don't even exist anymore. They were famous for Teuta fighting the Romans and pirating.

Ardiaean Kingdom founded by Bardyllis and that of Pleuratus.[2]

the Kingdom was always in Montenegro

Did the Taulantii belong to this tribe ?

 

[enter_tain]

It's also an Illyrian name in general that appears in many places in Illyria or similar sounding names. You also have the name 'Arba' in Croatia for example. Which in Slavic was turned into 'Rab' , this is the same thing that happened with 'Arbanon' where Serbs turned into 'Raban' . Albanoi also do appear in Dardania during the Roman period.

Anyway, I am not sure where you are going with this. You claimed that tribes in Yugoslavia weren't Illyrian before the Roman period while I just showed you that they were in fact the same or related tribes that held regions in Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo etc. before Roman occupation. Those same regions that you claimed was ''core Illyrian'' .

Your idea of ''core Illyrian'' is basically just some historical attestation of some name during the Classical Greece and when these tribes were forming or still hadn't fully formed. Ancient authors weren't always right either. For example, I see on wiki it is claimed that tribes on Adriatic were separated at one point from ''Illyrians'' by ancient authors (whoever these Illyrians were supposed to be) the book is quoted from Wilkes, a guy who claimed a lot of nonsense, yet it's obvious that the tribes before Roman occupation that occupied the Adriatic were the same or related tribes as the other ones. Would be more logic that the tribes that lived the furthest away would of been separated from other tribes regardless if they lived on the Adriatic or not. And that before the Roman period these tribes came historically in more intense contact with each other and possibly developed from there. From the period of the classical Greece and after these tribes and people could of also changed and how similar or different they were changed.

The Dardani also existed during Classical Greece, their territory stretched into Albania, Epirus and even Macedonia at one point. Appian mentioned them as Illyrian later. And the Taulantii existed too.


Cultural and genetic material also suggests the same people that settled Yugoslavia during Iron Age / Bronze Age were the same that settled Albania.

The issue is that these tribes were not always static for 2-3000 years. They migrated up and down the Balkans/Central Europe. For example you have clear Celtic settlements that went through all over the Balkans, and displaced people/Celticized them. The city of "Nish" follows Albanian sound laws before Slavic migrations but was originally Celtic. So we can't assume the same people always lived in the exact same place.

While there is some clear genetic link with northern Balkan tribes, we don't know what language they spoke/what ethnicity they identified in Bronze Age. Was it Illyrian, Illyrian-related, or just some culturally/genetically related people.

Unless those tribes were called "Illyrian" by Greeks or Romans AT THAT TIME AND PLACE, we can't just assume their identity. For example the Liburnians were considered "Illyrian" but later were considered a different people.

 

[enter_tain]

Ardiaean Kingdom founded by Bardyllis and that of Pleuratus.[2]
the Kingdom was always in Montenegro
Did the Taulantii belong to this tribe ?

Bardyllis existed 100 years before any mention of the Ardieai.