Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

[Kari]

By the way illyrians were like 15-35% ANE

 

[torzio]

Do you have the y dna lines for those samples?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/

 

[1337]

He is a fan of the pseudo scientific fantasy that Slavs are autochthonous to the Balkans. I think he is not referring to the obviously contaminated modern Slavic sample but to one basal I2a2 non-IE sample from Slavonia, Potocari and is trying to link it to I2a1b-Slav which does not make sense whatsoever since these are different haplogroups.

Also, J2b-L283 in antiquity does not have anything to do with the ancestors of Proto-Albanians but everything with Illyrians as we've seen.

Lmao. And this mentally unstable guy accuses me of being anti-Albanian when you're the ''Kosovan identity'' guy

I defended you for a minute then you come and attack me ? Man, you really have some nerves.

 

[1337]

Complete troll. What does croatia have to do with albania, its hundreds of miles away. Once we get a few ancient samples from albania we will see if there is continuity, croatia has nothing to do with albanians. I am pretty sure that south albanians always had little j2b l283, the arbereshe had 2-3% of it

Certainly nothing to do with being a troll, unless you're also claiming geneticists and even Carleton Coon was a troll. It reperesents the same people that settled Western Balkans during the Iron Age / Bronze Age and formed the Glasinac culture. They originated most likely from the Steppes or somewhere in Central Europe in the Hallstatt. And yes in Y-DNA there is most certainly a continuity. We already have 11 J2b2-L283 samples from Croatia.

You can even see this by the J2b2-L283 and R1b-L23 that has been found in these areas and the archaeological evidence points to this too.

 

[1337]

I've noticed that Albanians from Northern Albania and Montenegro, tend to plot slightly more North-West compared to the "core" of Albanians. Interestingly, these areas have the lowest foreign Y-DNA (I2,R1a, l1, etc) but they have slightly higher Baltic, Atlantic, compared to other Albanians. J2b2 is also highest in this region. On that PCA map a few posts above, I plot just north of IceT and to the right of Fustan, on a North-West cline. My family comes from the Catholic highlands, I don't score any Slavic autosomal but I am 4% Irish, from the ancient Celts

I wonder if some of that increased Baltic/Atlantic is from when Illyrians and Dardanians used to trade amber & women with the ancient Baltic tribes. Of course, some would have came from medieval marriages with Slavic women, but there was also a trade network in ancient times from the Balkans to Northern Europe, that I've also seen you mention before

Those are both Kosovars. I haven't really seen any correlation. In fact it is Kosovans and some Montenegro Albos that plot the most North out of all Albanians and Northern Albania and Albania was filled with Slavs too at one point, both Serbs and Bulgarians. And Albanians in Northern Albania / Montenegro intermarried Slavs and some Montenigrin tribes are also of Albanian and Vlach origin. However I have seen one Albanian from Albania that plotted like an Italian and one guy plotted like a Tuscan or South of Tuscans. Maybe some people in Albania proper or the coastal areas could be more West. I don't know.

 

[1337]

J2b l283 does not peak in kosovo, that is where v13 peaks. J2b l283 peaks in north albania. I have already made a claim that a lot of north albanians died during the ottoman wars and those that fled to the mountains determined the frequencies of y dna in north albanians over the next few hundred years until now

Never said it peaks only in Kosovo. It peaks in Kosovo and Northern Albania compared to other Albanian lands. It depends on the regions. Some regions EV-13 is more common, others R1b or J2b2. It's like that in Macedonia too.

EV-13 maybe peaks only in Kosove there in your study that is older than the internet. It's a Y-DNA that peaks in many Albanian lands and even Montenegro and the Balkans compared to J2b2 and R1b-L23. Your conclusions are "scientific", like that Serbian and Albanian guy who claims Kosovo Serbs, who are bunch of Ottoman immigrants that came from all over the place, are all native Serbs that inhabited Kosove before Ottoman period.

I sincerely understand if the moderators of this forum, you being one of them, are not too enthusiastic to go through these troll accounts' posts, but for the sake of all of the genuine users on this forum, consequences are long overdue for these sock accounts:



These are sock puppet accounts using anti-Albanian slurs, making jokes about people and their generational trauma due to the 90s wars in the Balkans and making pseudo scientific statements.

You and other moderators are notified when people report these posts or quote you. Now it would be greatly appreciated, and I am sure not only by me, but also other users, if these accounts would face consequences for their inappropriate posts. I would also take this as an opportunity to thank you, again, for what you have done in regards to older similar cases.

Best regards and I sincerely hope that this won't stay unheard again.

Just be quiet you troll lol . You see how he called us Kosovars terrorists. This is what they all deep down believe about us. They believe the Serbian version of history, mythical Serbo-Chetnik origins and suffering. They are Chetniks deep down. Most of these Albanians from Albania and even Croats too. Influenced by the Serbo-Chetnik propaganda machine and their false mythical Serbian history. The only Albanians from Albnia that were ever close to us Kosovars are North-Eastern Albania , specifically the Tropoje area and the Has region which was historically closer to Kosovo and before the creation of Albania in 1912-13 they used towns like Prizren, Peja, Gjakova as the main centers rather than Tirana or any town in Albania and where some tribes like Krasniqi and Gashi came from and Morina. Let's also not forget the Albanian revolt of 1912 in Kosove which is exactly what eventually led to the independence of Albania. Albanians from Albania would still be kissing Ottoman shoes if it wasn't for us Kosovars. Cercicz Topulli was a great hero from Albania and some of the Albanians from North-Eastern Albania.

Kastrioti, some mountain dude, who lived in the 15th century is apparently our greatest hero now, ignoring he had first of all military training from the Ottomans and lived in a different time and claiming him as the most relevant is discrediting all the Albanians that died that came after him. According to this dude Azem Bejta Galica was a terrorist too.

The Albanian national resistance was put up in two ways: in the legal way, by the Muslim organisation Cemiyet, and in the revolutionary way, by fighting with arms by Albanian national detachments that are called ‘kaçakë' (outlaws). We shall speak of Cemiyet later. The Serbian government attempted to present Albanian ‘kaçaks' as robbers and put them out of the law. Every governmental service and every Serbian fascist has the right to kill them. ‘Kaçaks' in fact are not robbers at all, but they are good Albanian guerrillas. There are people that can sacrifice everything, their houses, property and goods, and go to mountains, form guerrilla detachments and fight against the misdeeds and barbarisms of Serbian military and police. ‘Kaçaks' believe they can dislodge the Serbian regime from Kosova in that way. These national warriors have fought a great fight, a fight that ought to be admired, against very big forces of Serbian gendarmerie and military. The names of Bajram Curri, Azem Bejta and hundreds of other brave men that have fallen at that war, have been carved in the hearts of the Albanians of Kosova.

- Kosta Novakovic


Ironically some Claim Kastrioti originated in Western Kosovo just like Leke Dukagjini . TikTaki's only correct point is that from 1389 and 1448 many people fled the plains of Kosove and Macedonia after they faced the Ottomans in these battles and settled the mountains of Albania. Included probably many Vlachs and Albanians. Some then returned back. It's just a theory but possible. As there are stories of Montenigrins about this too.

 

[1337]

They are Illyrian wether you like it or not and Proto-Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians. You have a vibrant imagination, I'll give you that.

LOL. You're just mad you're EV-13 and link it to Proto-Albanians. But I'm the one who is anti-Albanian ? No, I'm just a realist. I can even criticize myself and admit things about myself that I don't like. Don't worry, mr.''Kosovan'', I'm EV-13 too from other sides.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Never said it peaks only in Kosovo. It peaks in Kosovo and Northern Albania compared to other Albanian lands. It depends on the regions. Some regions EV-13 is more common, others R1b or J2b2. It's like that in Macedonia too.
EV-13 maybe peaks only in Kosove there in your study that is older than the internet. It's a Y-DNA that peaks in many Albanian lands and even Montenegro and the Balkans compared to J2b2 and R1b-L23. Your conclusions are "scientific", like that Serbian and Albanian guy who claims Kosovo Serbs, who are bunch of Ottoman immigrants that came from all over the place, are all native Serbs that inhabited Kosove before Ottoman period.
Just be quiet you troll lol . You see how he called us Kosovars terrorists. This is what they all deep down believe about us. They believe the Serbian version of history, mythical Serbo-Chetnik origins and suffering. They are Chetniks deep down. Most of these Albanians from Albania and even Croats too. Influenced by the Serbo-Chetnik propaganda machine and their false mythical Serbian history. The only Albanians from Albnia that were ever close to us Kosovars are North-Eastern Albania , specifically the Tropoje area and the Has region which was historically closer to Kosovo and before the creation of Albania in 1912-13 they used towns like Prizren, Peja, Gjakova as the main centers rather than Tirana or any town in Albania and where some tribes like Krasniqi and Gashi came from and Morina. Let's also not forget the Albanian revolt of 1912 in Kosove which is exactly what eventually led to the independence of Albania. Albanians from Albania would still be kissing Ottoman shoes if it wasn't for us Kosovars. Cercicz Topulli was a great hero from Albania and some of the Albanians from North-Eastern Albania.
Kastrioti, some mountain dude, who lived in the 15th century is apparently our greatest hero now, ignoring he had first of all military training from the Ottomans and lived in a different time and claiming him as the most relevant is discrediting all the Albanians that died that came after him. According to this dude Azem Bejta Galica was a terrorist too.
- Kosta Novakovic
Ironically some Claim Kastrioti originated in Western Kosovo just like Leke Dukagjini . TikTaki's only correct point is that from 1389 and 1448 many people fled the plains of Kosove and Macedonia after they faced the Ottomans in these battles and settled the mountains of Albania. Included probably many Vlachs and Albanians. Some then returned back. It's just a theory but possible. As there are stories of Montenigrins about this too.

Say what you want but dont talk shit about gjergj kastrioti. We should send you back 110 years to see how poor your ancestors were thanks to the ottoman. They left us without weapons which meant we were unable to defend ourselves during world war 1 which led to kosovo being taken away. Ottoman didnt allow for albanian schools and didnt bring any sort of modern technology to albania while rest of europe was advancing

As for gjergj kastrioti origin, he was from mat not kosovo - kosovo was overrun by serbs in 1300s and we see that with the battle of kosovo which was mostly fought by serbs. The albanians that fought alongside them was led by the muzaka family who were from berat, south albania

Gjergj kastrioti's grandads origin is speculated to be from south albania but either way he was not from kosovo -
"A figure attested as Kastriot of Kanina in southern Albania who appears in a letter sent on September 2, 1368 by Alexander Komnenos Asen to the Ragusan senate has been hypothesised by a number of authors, mostly in the early 20th century, as an ancestor of the Kastrioti family. Heinrich Kretschmayr argued that this Kastriot may have been in fact Pal or Gjergj Kastrioti, John Fine considered it "probable" that this Kastriot was an ancestor of Gjon Kastrioti."

 

[kmak]

I think that J2 upper hand of Ancient Greece.

 

[epirus1000]

the term illyria proper only refers to the illyrian tribes in Montenegro which where not celtinized over time.......it has zero to do with origin............the illyrians migrated southward prior to the celtic 'invasion" of illyrian lands termed halstatt culture phase one ( circa 1000 BC )

when we find J-L283 in montenegro....then we can discuss

"The Genetic History of the Southern Arc" published the first aDNA results from Velika Gruda, a multi-generational tumulus site of an Illyrian clan in Late Bronze Age Montenegro. All men belonged to hg J-L283. 40% of Albanian and 2% Montenegrin men descend from it in today's Montenegro.

It is weird that no one is discussing about Velika Gruda, close to todays's Tivat and Kotorr, 1450-1250 BCE. It would be great to see even the similarities with the actual Shkodra's individuals.

Generally speaking the old Tivatians and Kotorrians of 3500 years ago have moved along to the southeast to Ulqin-Malesia axis.

 

[1337_]

Say what you want but dont talk shit about gjergj kastrioti. We should send you back 110 years to see how poor your ancestors were thanks to the ottoman. They left us without weapons which meant we were unable to defend ourselves during world war 1 which led to kosovo being taken away. Ottoman didnt allow for albanian schools and didnt bring any sort of modern technology to albania while rest of europe was advancing
As for gjergj kastrioti origin, he was from mat not kosovo - kosovo was overrun by serbs in 1300s and we see that with the battle of kosovo which was mostly fought by serbs. The albanians that fought alongside them was led by the muzaka family who were from berat, south albania
Gjergj kastrioti's grandads origin is speculated to be from south albania but either way he was not from kosovo -
"A figure attested as Kastriot of Kanina in southern Albania who appears in a letter sent on September 2, 1368 by Alexander Komnenos Asen to the Ragusan senate has been hypothesised by a number of authors, mostly in the early 20th century, as an ancestor of the Kastrioti family. Heinrich Kretschmayr argued that this Kastriot may have been in fact Pal or Gjergj Kastrioti, John Fine considered it "probable" that this Kastriot was an ancestor of Gjon Kastrioti."

In contemporary historiography, the figure recorded as Kastriot of Kanina in 1368 is considered to be unrelated to the Kastrioti family.^[4] The early Kastrioti so far remain absent from historical or archival records in comparison to other Albanian noble families until their first historical appearance.

Even Albania was overrun by Serbs & Bulgarians. Rrafshi i Dukagjinit (Dukagjin Plataeu) had Vlach and Albanian population. Lek Dukagjini, Kastrioti etc were Northern Albanians. Their states extended close to Prizren.

Battle of Kosovo was fought by many Balkan states including Albanian ones, not just Muzaka. Battle of Kosovo 1448 by Hungarians etc

And I did not talk shit about him but you talked shit about us. Thanks to us Kosovars you have your independence.

In fact, it was the Albanian revolt, mainly in Kosovo, that compelled the Ottoman government to grant autonomy to the territorially undefined Albania on 18 August 1912, and which in turn provoked the military phase of the Balkan alliance against Istanbul.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42676-Albanian-Revolt-of-1912

 

[Wanderer]

"The Genetic History of the Southern Arc" published the first aDNA results from Velika Gruda, a multi-generational tumulus site of an Illyrian clan in Late Bronze Age Montenegro. All men belonged to hg J-L283. 40% of Albanian and 2% Montenegrin men descend from it in today's Montenegro.

It is weird that no one is discussing about Velika Gruda, close to todays's Tivat and Kotorr, 1450-1250 BCE. It would be great to see even the similarities with the actual Shkodra's individuals.

Generally speaking the old Tivatians and Kotorrians of 3500 years ago have moved along to the southeast to Ulqin-Malesia axis.

The more ancient J-L283 seem to be more north in general by montenegro croatia

 

[Okoi]

Early Pannonian-Illyrians were mainly J-L283 and R1b (esp. R-L2), while early Thracians were primarily E-V13. We know from Kyjatice that they had a J2a carrier, but they might have been very varied, with many Bell Beaker (Western R1b) and other local and Eastern lineages. Many of the groups then dominant and roaming around seem to have collapsed or being annihilated, with the best survival chances for their womenfolk.

Whereever we find Illyrians and have samples from, J-L283 pops up, even in the mixed/influenced groups, like the Unterkrainische group around Novo Mesto, where R1b and J-L283 were side by side. They used the Illyrian burial rite in contrast to Fr�g and others, which were more oriented towards Basarabi/Thracians.

Just recently I read that in the Iron Age there was a huge network from the Upper Danube (Austria) down the Lower Danube, from about Southern Poland to Albania, from Czechia to Ukraine, in which brides being exchanged. You see it in their grave goods: Illyrian brides in the Carpathians, Carpathian brides in Albania and Austria etc. So especially the elite seems to have been interconnected and experience constant, even if lower level gene flow. How low level is another matter, because if it would be that low, this phenomenon wouldn't be that widespread and easy to spot. There really was in the early Hallstatt period some kind of Koine from the Danubian-Carpathian-Balkan world.
That's interesting to note for debates on the autosomals of some individuals.

R-L2 has nothing to do with Illyrians, they mainly represent proto-Italic tribes that came in contact with Northern Illyrians such as Bezdanjaca cave are most likely proto-Italics where J2b2-L283 was completely absent. Same thing we will see among Venetics, Etruscans. J2b2-L283 in Italy is the result of spread of Cetina culture. So there was contact between Italic and Illyrians. Slovenia wasn't compact Illyrian territory. Liburnians and Histrians weren't proper Illyrians and by some are believed to of been Italics.


Real Illyrian R1b is what we see in Vucedol, Maros, and Iron Age Albania, and Iron Age Macedonia and R-L2 among these sites so far is completely absent.

 

[Okoi]

He is a fan of the pseudo scientific fantasy that Slavs are autochthonous to the Balkans. I think he is not referring to the obviously contaminated modern Slavic sample but to one basal I2a2 non-IE sample from Slavonia, Potocari and is trying to link it to I2a1b-Slav which does not make sense whatsoever since these are different haplogroups.

Also, J2b-L283 in antiquity does not have anything to do with the ancestors of Proto-Albanians but everything with Illyrians as we've seen.

Non sense. J2b-L283 has nothing to do with Proto-Albanians. Second of all the South Dalmatian Posusje samples are harbingers as to what is to be expected from even more southern regions.

There is no E1b-V13 in BA and most definitely not among Classical Illyrians. This is an Albanian nationalistic obsession of you.

Thanks for the compliment tallava dancing fanatasy wannabe Illyrian descended person.

Thanks for exposing yourself. Now we know who you are and what your agenda is. Can dig up more of your posts of course to show people here who you are. ''Psuedo Scientfic'' garbage is exactly what you spread. Some fake troll account pretending to be Albanian or some dude with mixed ancestry or with an identity crisis .


In Iron Age Albania we now have J2b2-L283 + R1b-Z2103. Who is spreading pseudo garbage now ?