Ancient balkan states Y-DNA

And lastly, I would answer to your question of modern diversity if you answer me why modern Croatia and Bosnia have so low J2b2-L283 percentage and diversity yet ancient samples are overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 so far?

Sure, why not.

I can't reply much about Bosnia because there are 0 samples from Bosnia, so I really don't know which haplogroups were present in Bosnia. I know however that Bosnia was severely depopulated before the Slavic migrations, so when the Slavs arrived there, not many people lived in Bosnia. In your place, I wouldn't tie J-L283 to Bosnia so early because Bosnia doesn't have that high J-L283 diversity overall. although it is still substantial

l283.png





It does however have high E-V13 diversity and a quite high E-V13 frequency. So why does Bosnia (especially Herzegovina) have high diversity? It definitely isn't because of Vlachs who came from the eastern Balkans, most "Vlachs" of Bosnia came from Montenegro or were already living in the hinterland of Herzegovina and Dalmatia.

There are 9 J-L283 from Croatia https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/ 5 of them are under https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/ , 4 in a single site. The aDNA samples that have come up from Croatia so far show diversity which is displayed on the modern diversity heatmap, regardless of the 1-2% J-L283 frequency in Croatia. Coastal Illyrians were mostly expelled inland or to Dacia (5% J-L283 in Romania today).

Only a small part of Dacia was under Roman control, for few centuries and most of Dacia was never under Roman control or "Romanized". So where is E-V13 diversity in Dacia? J-L283 diversity in Croatia wasn't "lost" despite full Romanization, expulsion of Illyrians, and Slavic colonization.
 
Sure, why not.

I can't reply much about Bosnia because there are 0 samples from Bosnia, so I really don't know which haplogroups were present in Bosnia. I know however that Bosnia was severely depopulated before the Slavic migrations, so when the Slavs arrived there, not many people lived in Bosnia. In your place, I wouldn't tie J-L283 to Bosnia so early because Bosnia doesn't have that high J-L283 diversity overall. although it is still substantial

l283.png





It does however have high E-V13 diversity and a quite high E-V13 frequency. So why does Bosnia (especially Herzegovina) have high diversity? It definitely isn't because of Vlachs who came from the eastern Balkans, most "Vlachs" of Bosnia came from Montenegro or were already living in the hinterland of Herzegovina and Dalmatia.

There are 9 J-L283 from Croatia https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/ 5 of them are under https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/ , 4 in a single site. The aDNA samples that have come up from Croatia so far show diversity which is displayed on the modern diversity heatmap, regardless of the 1-2% J-L283 frequency in Croatia. Coastal Illyrians were mostly expelled inland or to Dacia (5% J-L283 in Romania today).

Only a small part of Dacia was under Roman control, for few centuries and most of Dacia was never under Roman control or "Romanized". So where is E-V13 diversity in Dacia? J-L283 diversity in Croatia wasn't "lost" despite full Romanization, expulsion of Illyrians, and Slavic colonization.

To begin with, we don't have a lot of Romanian-Moldovan samples. Ethnic Romanians are seriously undersampled as a people.

Also, Romania had one of the biggest impacts of Slavs and other people in the Late/post Antiquity period and a large fraction of the Vlachs repopulated from more Southern areas.

What we really need are both more modern and especially ancient samples, from the important cultural formations.

As for Bosnia, it was actually in part a borderzone between the E-V13 dominated and J-L283 dominated groups numerous times. But like you say, similar to Romania, there was quite some depopulation and population replacement.

I think that the retreat of the Roman provincials from Pannonia will prove to be important, as well as those Pannnonians and already Germanic and Slavic groups which picked even more North Eastern and Eastern groups more strongly E-V13 up, like those from the Tisza basin in particular.

The Tisza basin, especially the Upper/Eastern Tisza/Transtisza area is the ancient homeland of E-V13.

Map-of-Danube-River-basin-and-Tisza-River-sub-basin-Source-authors-using-data-from.png


Note that even in Hungary the territories East of the Tisza being seriously undersampled for the earlier periods. We have E-V13 from there, as the main potentially local haplogroup, but that's too late for proving anything with certainty in this respect. Bronze Age will be difficult, because they largely cremated, with some irregular burials/exceptional finds. If we would find in the Transtisza area from the Late Bronze Age a battle scene like Tollense, the warriors, at least the local/G?va ones, would be full of E-V13 carriers.
But such finds are rare...
 
G?va/E-V13 mainly expanded from the Upper Tisza/Eastern Tisza basin to the whole of the Danube basin East of the Tisza river:
Map-of-the-Danube-River-Basin-United-Nations-Environment-Programme-UNEP-2009.png


The also expanded Westwards, later, along the Danube and its tributaries. That way its easy to explain how later Thraco-Cimmerian/Basarabi finds and E-V13 made it to Southern Germany and North Western Italy. They followed always the river pathways. G?va was specialised in trade and agro-pastoralism along the rivers, they started from a wet/more swampish area potentially, where they developed improved methods of agricultural production, which led to a massive population increase from the MBA to the LBA.
 
G�va/E-V13 mainly expanded from the Upper Tisza/Eastern Tisza basin to the whole of the Danube basin East of the Tisza river:
Map-of-the-Danube-River-Basin-United-Nations-Environment-Programme-UNEP-2009.png


The also expanded Westwards, later, along the Danube and its tributaries. That way its easy to explain how later Thraco-Cimmerian/Basarabi finds and E-V13 made it to Southern Germany and North Western Italy. They followed always the river pathways. G�va was specialised in trade and agro-pastoralism along the rivers, they started from a wet/more swampish area potentially, where they developed improved methods of agricultural production, which led to a massive population increase from the MBA to the LBA.


where in North Western Italy ? ......Liguria or Piedmont
 
Sure, why not.

I can't reply much about Bosnia because there are 0 samples from Bosnia, so I really don't know which haplogroups were present in Bosnia. I know however that Bosnia was severely depopulated before the Slavic migrations, so when the Slavs arrived there, not many people lived in Bosnia. In your place, I wouldn't tie J-L283 to Bosnia so early because Bosnia doesn't have that high J-L283 diversity overall. although it is still substantial

l283.png





It does however have high E-V13 diversity and a quite high E-V13 frequency. So why does Bosnia (especially Herzegovina) have high diversity? It definitely isn't because of Vlachs who came from the eastern Balkans, most "Vlachs" of Bosnia came from Montenegro or were already living in the hinterland of Herzegovina and Dalmatia.

There are 9 J-L283 from Croatia https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/ 5 of them are under https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/ , 4 in a single site. The aDNA samples that have come up from Croatia so far show diversity which is displayed on the modern diversity heatmap, regardless of the 1-2% J-L283 frequency in Croatia. Coastal Illyrians were mostly expelled inland or to Dacia (5% J-L283 in Romania today).

Only a small part of Dacia was under Roman control, for few centuries and most of Dacia was never under Roman control or "Romanized". So where is E-V13 diversity in Dacia? J-L283 diversity in Croatia wasn't "lost" despite full Romanization, expulsion of Illyrians, and Slavic colonization.

You shouldn't cherry-pick scenarios. Dacia was in a full-scale war with Rome during their peak, it was Rome's greatest victory in ancient world. The Dacians were their only equal foe in Europe. Dacians were totally devastated after the war, hence why only the Free Dacians survived in Carpathian Mountains latter joining to whichever was the enemy of Rome to plunder Roman territory.

Same scenario happened earlier to Dalmatians, most of the young males were enslaved and sent to South Italy where they died in mines. Dalmatia and Dacia were devastated by Romans initially and then you can count other factors.

We don't have samples from Bosnia, but we know from archaeology that they should be similar in ancestry to the ones from Croatia, it was same continuun of archaeological sites with some bordering external cultures influencing them.
 
@Riverman

Everything you posted is speculation. From the samples we've gotten from eastern Hungary so far there's nothing which suggests that E-V13 was the dominant haplogroup in that area. E-V13 appears in substantial numbers in some Roman-related southern regions along with E-V22 and other such haplogroups, usually with autosomal profiles which are visibly very southern. One of the E-V13 which has been was basically "Sicilian-like". This is clear evidence that E-V13 increase in Hungary came with Roman expansion.
 
@Riverman

Everything you posted is speculation. From the samples we've gotten from eastern Hungary so far there's nothing which suggests that E-V13 was the dominant haplogroup in that area. E-V13 appears in substantial numbers in some Roman-related southern regions along with E-V22 and other such haplogroups, usually with autosomal profiles which are visibly very southern. One of the E-V13 which has been was basically "Sicilian-like". This is clear evidence that E-V13 increase in Hungary came with Roman expansion.

That's just not true. They might be local, came from the North Carpathians Thracians/Celts or they came earlier from the Danube area with Bosut-Basarabi (= Thracians in the Tisza area).

Among the non-newcoming lineages in Eastern Hungary from Roman and Avar times (so minus new steppe, Germanic and clearly Baltoslavic lineages), E-V13 is top and nowhere near the numbers of other local/Southern haplogroups.

where in North Western Italy ? ......Liguria or Piedmont

In the West Alpine zone are different areas which have, potentially, higher E-V13 frequencies, among the top ones going by the available numbers are Western (French) Switzerland, very Eastern Switzerland (St. Gallen) and in Italy Liguria/Genua.
 
By the way, Tomenable made a nice map with historically known tribes and how they should be assigned:
u0vOjzg.png


Tribes and their suggested linguistic stocks:

1. Acibi - Balto-Slavic-related
2. Agathyrsi - Daco-Thracian-related with Iranic influence
3. Alauni - Iranic-related (Alans)
4. Amadoci - Balto-Slavic-related
5. Amaxobii - Iranic-related
6. Anartophracti - Celtic-related (literally: "fraction of Anartes")
7. Aorsi - Iranic-related
8. Arsietae - Daco-Thracian-related
9. Vandili Avarini - Vandalic Germanic-related
10. Bastarnae - East Germanic-related (in confederation with Peucini)
11. Biessi - Daco-Thracian-related
12. Bodini/Budinoi - Finno-Permic-related (ancestors of Meshchera etc.)
13. Borusci/Borouskoi - Balto-Slavic-related
14. Vandili Burgiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
15. Carbones/Carvones - Finno-Permic-related (in Estonia)
16. Careotae - Balto-Slavic-related (Curonians)
17. Cariones/Caroni - Iranic-related
18. Carpiani - Daco-Thracian-related
19. Chuni/Khounoi - Iranic-related (or Hunnic?)
20. Coestoboci - Daco-Thracian-related
21. Exobygitae - Iranic-related
22. Finni/Phinnoi - Finno-Permic-related
23. Galindae - Balto-Slavic-related (Galindians)
24. Gelones - Balto-Slavic-related with Greek influence (lived near Bilsk - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...ilsk_Hill_Fort)
25. Gevini - Balto-Slavic-related
26. Guthones/Gythones - Gothic Germanic-related
27. Hippopodes - Finno-Permic-related
28. Iazyges - Iranic-related
29. Idrae - Balto-Slavic-related
30. Igylliones - Daco-Thracian-related
31. Melanchlaeni - Finno-Permic-related
32. Nasci - Balto-Slavic-related
33. Neuri/Navari - Balto-Slavic-related (to the north-west of Scythians)
34. Ombrones - Celtic-related
35. Ophlones - Iranic-related
36. Osili - Iranic-related
37. Ossi - Finno-Permic-related (in Livonia)
38. Pagyritae - Balto-Slavic-related
39. Peucini - Celtic-related (in confederation with Bastarnae)
40. Vandili Phrungundiones/Frugundiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
41. Piengitae - Daco-Thracian-related
42. Rheucanali - Iranic-related
43. Rhoxolani - Iranic-related
44. Saboci - Daco-Thracian-related
45. Sali - Balto-Slavic-related (Selonians)
46. Sargati - Iranic-related
47. Savari - Balto-Slavic-related (Severians - I placed them in Severia)
48. Alani Scythae - Iranic-related (Scythians / Sarmatians)
49. Stavani/Stavanoi - Balto-Slavic-related
50. Sturni - Iranic-related
51. Sudini - Balto-Slavic-related (Sudovians)
52. Boulanes/Soulones/Boutones - Balto-Slavic-related (Polans / Goplans)
53. Alani Tanaitae - Iranic-related (Alans near Tanais)
54. Transmontani - Celtic-related (most probably)
55. Tauroscythae - Iranic-related
56. Tigri/Tagru - Iranic-related with Daco-Thracian influence
57. Toreccadae - Iranic-related
58. Tyrangitae - Daco-Thracian-related (Getae at the Dniester)
59. Veltae - Balto-Slavic-related
60. Venedae/Vistula Veneti - Balto-Slavic-related
61. Vibiones - Balto-Slavic-related
62. Aestii/Aestiorum Gentes - Balto-Slavic-related
63. Buri - Daco-Thracian-related (related to another Buri in Dacia "Proper")
64. Cotini/Kotini/Gotini - Celtic-related
65. Scythae Aroteres - Balto-Slavic-related with Iranic influence (Scythian Ploughmen)
66. Scythae Borystheneitae - Balto-Slavic-related with Iranic influence (Scythian Farmers)
67. Tauri - probably language isolate
A. Lugii/Lugiones - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
B. Lugi Diduni - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
C. Lugi Omani - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
D. Manimi - probably East Germanic-related
E. Helisii (name related to Kalisia) - Balto-Slavic-related
F. Helvecones - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
G. Harii - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
H. Zumoi - possibly Balto-Slavic-related
I. Mugilones - Celtic-related
J. Vandili Silingi - Vandalic Germanic-related
K. Nahanarvali - Celtic-related with Germanic influence
L. Vandili Burgundi/Burgodiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
M. Elvaiones - East Germanic-related
N. Sidini - East Germanic-related
O. Ulmerugii - East Germanic-related (name means: "Insular Rugii")
P. Rugii/Rugiclei - East Germanic-related
Q. Lemovii - East Germanic-related
R. Hirii - East Germanic-related
S. Sciri - East Germanic-related
T. Gepidae - East Germanic-related
U. Semnones - Irminonic Germanic-related
V. Vandili Varinnae/Varini/Charini - Vandalic Germanic-related
W. Farodini - Irminonic Germanic-related

Second map with tribes coloured based on their presumed linguistic stock:

Blue = Daco-Thracian-related
Green = Germanic-related
Purple = Celtic-related
Yellow = Iranic-related
Red = Balto-Slavic-related
Black = Finno-Permic-related

Red line = border of European Sarmatia and border of Germania Magna

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...guistic-stocks&p=844427&viewfull=1#post844427


Blue is the North Thracian/Daco-Thracian zone. The Celtic-Dacian-Sarmatian mixed zone is close to Masłomęcz, not by chance. Hopefully they have way more samples in the upcoming paper on Masłomęcz, there might be more E-V13 - though its not as sure, because the Dacians still largely cremated.

Its the Upper Tisza area which was still largely Daco-Thracian in the later Antiquity.
 
Your repetitive trolling won't change genetic facts. This is absolute non sense.

What genetic facts? J2b l283 came from caucacus 5000 years ago, they were definitely dark skinned people originally. Youre the biggest troll around
 
What genetic facts? J2b l283 came from caucacus 5000 years ago, they were definitely dark skinned people originally. Youre the biggest troll around

Not quite. The Neolithic Revolution brought the genes for lighter skin to Europe first, then another wave with Indo-Europeans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_skin

history of human pigmentation.jpeg

Studies have suggested that the two genes most associated with lighter skin colour in modern Europeans originated in the Middle East and the Caucasus about 22,000 to 28,000 years ago,[18] and were present in Anatolia by 5000 years ago, where their carriers became associated with the Neolithic Revolution and the spread of Neolithic farming across Europe. The Ancient North Eurasian population had also evolved lighter skin tones and blond hair. A further wave of lighter-skinned populations across Europe (and elsewhere) is associated with the Yamnaya culture and the Indo-European migrations bearing Ancient North Eurasian ancestry and the KITLG allele for blond hair.
 
Nobody is saying that the WHG were actually light skinned, the question is which skin tone they got. And some reconstructions made them darker than e.g. Khoisan people, which is blatantly absurd. I know the Khoisan people got some WEU skin allels too, newly introduced by contacts with East African pastoralists, but still, it just doesn't fit, even with a forager nutrition. And we know that a large part of the current skin color variation being NOT predicted by the known allels, but by general ancestry. This points to a lot of unknown allels playing into the skin phenotype, and likely the WHG had a lot of now rare or not yet identified ones which made them at least lighter brown.
 
If they were pure j2b l283 as some people suggest then proto illyrians would have been quite dark skinned, especially if they brought their own women along from caucasus 5000 years ago - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/
Dark skinned like armenians and georgians?
images

Armenian-Men.jpg

Georgians-677x316_c.png


CHG had the mutation for light skin wich WHG did not have, CHG made up half of yamnaya autossomal dna and its known that ymnaya were the ones that increased the proportion of blond hair and light skin among europeans.
You are resembling me a lot a dumb troll from the apricity, I2a something was his name.
 
Dark skinned like armenians and georgians?
images

Armenian-Men.jpg

Georgians-677x316_c.png

CHG had the mutation for light skin wich WHG did not have, CHG made up half of yamnaya autossomal dna and its known that ymnaya were the ones that increased the proportion of blond hair and light skin among europeans.
You are resembling me a lot a dumb troll from the apricity, I2a something was his name.
WHG had blue eyes early on and would have had light skin thousands of years before j2b l283 existed or even before yamnaya culture was created in the caucacus. Look up scandinavian hunter gatherers who were descendents of WHG - had light skin and blue eyes carrying i2a line from WHG

Who told you that yamnaya made europe blonde? Have you visited spain or portugal (you obviously havent visited armenia either)? Over 70% r1b in spain and hardly anyone blonde. Youre from brazil, you should already know this
 
WHG had blue eyes early on and would have had light skin thousands of years before j2b l283 existed or even before yamnaya culture was created in the caucacus
Who told you that yamnaya made europe blonde? Have you visited spain or portugal? Over 70% r1b there and hardly anyone blonde. Youre from brazil, you should already know this

Spain and portugal are 25 - 34 % yamnaya geneticaly. Cultures like the corded ware were almost fully yamnaya with some farmer mixed in and were the ones that gave europe the look u fetishize so much.You are definitly the same guy is see, y dna doesnt afect apearence directly dummie.
 
Spain and portugal are 25 - 34 % yamnaya geneticaly. Cultures like the corded ware were almost fully yamnaya with some farmer mixed in and were the ones that gave europe the look u fetishize so much.You are definitly the same guy is see, y dna doesnt afect apearence directly dummie.

Why are they so low yamnaya if they are 70% r1b? Its time to face the music pal, corded ware picked up blue eyes from WHG, they were asians that mixed with WHG women

Look up scandinavian hunter gatherers who were descendents of WHG - had light skin and blue eyes carrying i2a line from WHG
 
Every so often the misinformation pops up, and for the benefit of newbies it has to be pointed out.

According to the forensic tests by which pigmentation is measured, WHG were dark skinned. Period.

Yamnaya were darker skinned than any modern Europeans. Period.

WHG had blue eyes, unlike the other people from their time period.

Numerous papers have provided the evidence. Please use the search engine entering phrases like pigmentation, or pigmentation qualified by the group.

Regardless, a discussion of pigmentation appears to be off topic. Please get back on topic.
 
Every so often the misinformation pops up, and for the benefit of newbies it has to be pointed out.

According to the forensic tests by which pigmentation is measured, WHG were dark skinned. Period.

Yamnaya were darker skinned than any modern Europeans. Period.

WHG had blue eyes, unlike the other people from their time period.

Numerous papers have provided the evidence. Please use the search engine entering phrases like pigmentation, or pigmentation qualified by the group.

Regardless, a discussion of pigmentation appears to be off topic. Please get back on topic.

I did not spread any misinformation lady, the ones with more yamnaya dna are the ones with more presence of the phenotype that weirdo idolise, not the ones with I2a dinarid y dna LOL.
Maybe it is about time to ban shitposter TaktikatEMalet ? I never seen that guy make a single ok post.
 
If you have bothered to read, you will realize how archaeologists reflected decades ago and now that material culture and especially burial rites are the last thing to change in a culture, if it changes there would be disruption. Especially burying the dead, from inhumating to burning the corpse in a pyre and putting the ashes in specific urns. I would tell you the chances of suddenly switching to that rite from nowhere is 0%. Especially the specificity of burials, not just inhumation or cremation. There is no mistake in it, there is a whole package. Just recently did Albanian archaeologists talk about the Kanellure influence in Bronze to Iron Age Albania. I am curious to see the outcome of it in aDNA as well. I expect Enchelei, Taulanti and Dardani to be influenced by these people.
And lastly, I would answer to your question of modern diversity if you answer me why modern Croatia and Bosnia have so low J2b2-L283 percentage and diversity yet ancient samples are overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 so far?
Enchelai and Taulanti lived together near modern Budva Montenegro , before fleeing to Albania
Cadmus was the conqueror and ruler of the Greek province of Boeotia and, when he was exiled from the city of Thebes, together with his wife Harmonia, he found refuge with an Illyrian tribe called the Enchelei. According to the legend, Cadmus arrived with a team of oxen, which is where Budva got its name from (bous is Greek for ox).
The Periplus of Pseudo-Skylax from the 4th century BC, mentions the Enchelei as an Illyrian tribe on the Adriatic coast in modern-day Montenegro.

and the Taulanti replaced the Bryges in North Albania.

But Durres and Appolonia always remained Corinthian Greek until the Roman occupation during the 2nd Punic war
 
I did not spread any misinformation lady, the ones with more yamnaya dna are the ones with more presence of the phenotype that weirdo idolise, not the ones with I2a dinarid y dna LOL.
Maybe it is about time to ban shitposter TaktikatEMalet ? I never seen that guy make a single ok post.
Youre the dumbass who claimed yamnaya brought light skin to WHG. Go do your research before making nonsense up, WHG, scandinavian hunter gatherers (i2a people) had light skin and blue eyes thousands of years before yamnaya existed. Look at this map and youll see that it matches with light hair and light eye frequency (except for maybe iberia wich has had the most recent north african input that had an effect on recessive genes) -
main-qimg-299ae46b2143b527ac99265a0640fc9b.png

As angela mentioned above WHG possibly got lighter skinned over time due to living in europe for a long time (colder region)
 
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Enchelai and Taulanti lived together near modern Budva Montenegro , before fleeing to Albania
Cadmus was the conqueror and ruler of the Greek province of Boeotia and, when he was exiled from the city of Thebes, together with his wife Harmonia, he found refuge with an Illyrian tribe called the Enchelei. According to the legend, Cadmus arrived with a team of oxen, which is where Budva got its name from (bous is Greek for ox).
The Periplus of Pseudo-Skylax from the 4th century BC, mentions the Enchelei as an Illyrian tribe on the Adriatic coast in modern-day Montenegro.

and the Taulanti replaced the Bryges in North Albania.

But Durres and Appolonia always remained Corinthian Greek until the Roman occupation during the 2nd Punic war

We have no evidence that Enchelei and Taulanti lived in Budva before moving in Albania, atleast i am not aware of any strong evidence. There is only the fact that Pirustae who might have been related to Enchelei, Dassareti moved up more North at a latter stage. Who knows, perhaps it is as you say, they lived in Budva initially and moved South. Just that it's based on pure speculation.
 

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