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Thread: Tribes of Sarmatia Europea & eastern Germania Magna their suggested linguistic stocks

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    Tribes of Sarmatia Europea & eastern Germania Magna their suggested linguistic stocks

    Map of tribes (note that locations of tribes along the edges of Sarmatia Europea are more certain, while these deep inland are less certain):

    List of tribes from the map:

    1. Acibi
    2. Agathyrsi
    3. Alauni
    4. Amadoci
    5. Amaxobii
    6. Anartophracti
    7. Aorsi
    8. Arsietae
    9. Vandili Avarini
    10. Bastarnae
    11. Biessi
    12. Bodini/Budinoi
    13. Borusci/Borouskoi
    14. Vandili Burgiones
    15. Carbones/Carvones
    16. Careotae
    17. Cariones/Caroni
    18. Carpiani
    19. Chuni/Khounoi
    20. Coestoboci
    21. Exobygitae
    22. Finni/Phinnoi
    23. Galindae
    24. Gelones
    25. Gevini
    26. Guthones/Gythones
    27. Hippopodes
    28. Iazyges
    29. Idrae
    30. Igylliones
    31. Melanchlaeni
    32. Nasci
    33. Neuri/Navari
    34. Ombrones
    35. Ophlones
    36. Osili
    37. Ossi
    38. Pagyritae
    39. Peucini
    40. Vandili Phrungundiones/Frugundiones
    41. Piengitae
    42. Rheucanali
    43. Rhoxolani
    44. Saboci
    45. Sali
    46. Sargati
    47. Savari
    48. Alani Scythae
    49. Stavani/Stavanoi
    50. Sturni
    51. Sudini
    52. Boulanes/Soulones/Boutones
    53. Alani Tanaitae
    54. Transmontani
    55. Tauroscythae
    56. Tigri/Tagru
    57. Toreccadae
    58. Tyrangitae
    59. Veltae
    60. Venedae/Vistula Veneti
    61. Vibiones
    62. Aestii/Aestiorum Gentes
    63. Buri
    64. Cotini/Kotini/Gotini
    65. Scythae Aroteres
    66. Scythae Borystheneitae
    67. Tauri
    A. Lugii/Lugiones
    B. Lugi Diduni
    C. Lugi Omani
    D. Manimi
    E. Helisii (name related to Kalisia)
    F. Helvecones
    G. Harii
    H. Zumoi
    I. Mugilones
    J. Vandili Silingi
    K. Nahanarvali
    L. Vandili Burgundi/Burgodiones
    M. Elvaiones
    N. Sidini
    O. Ulmerugii
    P. Rugii/Rugiclei
    Q. Lemovii
    R. Hirii
    S. Sciri
    T. Gepidae
    U. Semnones
    V. Vandili Varinnae/Varini/Charini
    W. Farodini



    ^^^
    Tribes and their suggested linguistic stocks:

    1. Acibi - Balto-Slavic-related
    2. Agathyrsi - Daco-Thracian-related with Iranic influence
    3. Alauni - Iranic-related (Alans)
    4. Amadoci - Balto-Slavic-related
    5. Amaxobii - Iranic-related
    6. Anartophracti - Celtic-related (literally: "fraction of Anartes")
    7. Aorsi - Iranic-related
    8. Arsietae - Daco-Thracian-related
    9. Vandili Avarini - Vandalic Germanic-related
    10. Bastarnae - East Germanic-related (in confederation with Peucini)
    11. Biessi - Daco-Thracian-related
    12. Bodini/Budinoi - Finno-Permic-related (ancestors of Meshchera etc.)
    13. Borusci/Borouskoi - Balto-Slavic-related
    14. Vandili Burgiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
    15. Carbones/Carvones - Finno-Permic-related (in Estonia)
    16. Careotae - Balto-Slavic-related (Curonians)
    17. Cariones/Caroni - Iranic-related
    18. Carpiani - Daco-Thracian-related
    19. Chuni/Khounoi - Iranic-related (or Hunnic?)
    20. Coestoboci - Daco-Thracian-related
    21. Exobygitae - Iranic-related
    22. Finni/Phinnoi - Finno-Permic-related
    23. Galindae - Balto-Slavic-related (Galindians)
    24. Gelones - Balto-Slavic-related with Greek influence (lived near Bilsk - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...ilsk_Hill_Fort)
    25. Gevini - Balto-Slavic-related
    26. Guthones/Gythones - Gothic Germanic-related
    27. Hippopodes - Finno-Permic-related
    28. Iazyges - Iranic-related
    29. Idrae - Balto-Slavic-related
    30. Igylliones - Daco-Thracian-related
    31. Melanchlaeni - Finno-Permic-related
    32. Nasci - Balto-Slavic-related
    33. Neuri/Navari - Balto-Slavic-related (to the north-west of Scythians)
    34. Ombrones - Celtic-related
    35. Ophlones - Iranic-related
    36. Osili - Iranic-related
    37. Ossi - Finno-Permic-related (in Livonia)
    38. Pagyritae - Balto-Slavic-related
    39. Peucini - Celtic-related (in confederation with Bastarnae)
    40. Vandili Phrungundiones/Frugundiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
    41. Piengitae - Daco-Thracian-related
    42. Rheucanali - Iranic-related
    43. Rhoxolani - Iranic-related
    44. Saboci - Daco-Thracian-related
    45. Sali - Balto-Slavic-related (Selonians)
    46. Sargati - Iranic-related
    47. Savari - Balto-Slavic-related (Severians - I placed them in Severia)
    48. Alani Scythae - Iranic-related (Scythians / Sarmatians)
    49. Stavani/Stavanoi - Balto-Slavic-related
    50. Sturni - Iranic-related
    51. Sudini - Balto-Slavic-related (Sudovians)
    52. Boulanes/Soulones/Boutones - Balto-Slavic-related (Polans / Goplans)
    53. Alani Tanaitae - Iranic-related (Alans near Tanais)
    54. Transmontani - Celtic-related (most probably)
    55. Tauroscythae - Iranic-related
    56. Tigri/Tagru - Iranic-related with Daco-Thracian influence
    57. Toreccadae - Iranic-related
    58. Tyrangitae - Daco-Thracian-related (Getae at the Dniester)
    59. Veltae - Balto-Slavic-related
    60. Venedae/Vistula Veneti - Balto-Slavic-related
    61. Vibiones - Balto-Slavic-related
    62. Aestii/Aestiorum Gentes - Balto-Slavic-related
    63. Buri - Daco-Thracian-related (related to another Buri in Dacia "Proper")
    64. Cotini/Kotini/Gotini - Celtic-related
    65. Scythae Aroteres - Balto-Slavic-related with Iranic influence (Scythian Ploughmen)
    66. Scythae Borystheneitae - Balto-Slavic-related with Iranic influence (Scythian Farmers)
    67. Tauri - probably language isolate
    A. Lugii/Lugiones - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
    B. Lugi Diduni - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
    C. Lugi Omani - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
    D. Manimi - probably East Germanic-related
    E. Helisii (name related to Kalisia) - Balto-Slavic-related
    F. Helvecones - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
    G. Harii - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
    H. Zumoi - possibly Balto-Slavic-related
    I. Mugilones - Celtic-related
    J. Vandili Silingi - Vandalic Germanic-related
    K. Nahanarvali - Celtic-related with Germanic influence
    L. Vandili Burgundi/Burgodiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
    M. Elvaiones - East Germanic-related
    N. Sidini - East Germanic-related
    O. Ulmerugii - East Germanic-related (name means: "Insular Rugii")
    P. Rugii/Rugiclei - East Germanic-related
    Q. Lemovii - East Germanic-related
    R. Hirii - East Germanic-related
    S. Sciri - East Germanic-related
    T. Gepidae - East Germanic-related
    U. Semnones - Irminonic Germanic-related
    V. Vandili Varinnae/Varini/Charini - Vandalic Germanic-related
    W. Farodini - Irminonic Germanic-related

    Second map with tribes coloured based on their presumed linguistic stock:

    Blue = Daco-Thracian-related
    Green = Germanic-related
    Purple = Celtic-related
    Yellow = Iranic-related
    Red = Balto-Slavic-related
    Black = Finno-Permic-related

    Red line = border of European Sarmatia and border of Germania Magna



    There can be mentioned also Suovenoi who are usually placed in Sarmatia Asiatica to the east of the Volga.

    =====
    =====
    =====

    If someone disagrees with my locations of tribes - then you can post your own idea:

    Here is a blank map with just Sarmatia Europea and Germania Magna borders (red):

    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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    If you compare the area I painted as Balto-Slavic-related to the area which had once been Trzciniec Culture you will see a lot of overlap (of course this map of tribes shows the situation centuries after the end of Trzciniec culture, but I'm talking about the overlap of geography).

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    I'm adding a map of available aDNA samples dated to 1000 BC - 650 AD (three colours for 1000-1 BC, 1-300 AD, 300-650 AD):

    This map is incomplete (some of the available samples are missing from it) but most samples are includded, so it gives an idea:


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    I don't think the Celtic wedge(K, G, F) into central Poland is probable. Celtic intrusion was limited to Silesia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    I don't think the Celtic wedge(K, G, F) into central Poland is probable. Celtic intrusion was limited to Silesia.
    There is actually some Celtic archaeology in this region, I assigned the tribes like this:



    And the name Nahanarvali apparently also has a Celtic etymology.

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    Sources which talk about the Venedae / Vistula Veneti (the East-Central / Eastern European ones) after year 1 AD* listed chronologically:

    50-100 AD:

    Pliny, Naturalis Historia, IV, 97 - Venedae
    Tacitus, Germania, 46 - Venethi / Veneti

    100-200 AD:

    Ptolemy, Geographike, III 5 - Ouenedai

    200-250 AD:

    Hippolytus of Rome, Chronicon

    300-400 AD:

    Tabula Peutingeriana, segment VIII - Venadi sarmatae (north of the Carpathians & south of the Baltic Sea) and Venedi (north of the Danube)
    Marcianus Heracleensis, Periplus Maris Externí, II 39

    500-550 AD:

    Jordanes, Getica, 34-36, 119, 246-247 (his work is largely based on Cassiodorus, Historia Gothorum)

    600-650 AD:

    Fredegarius, Chronicon - https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/fredegarius.html - e.g. this excerpt: "Sclavos, cognomento Winidos / Winedos"
    Monk Jonas, Life of St. Columban - https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/columban.asp - "land of the Wends, who are also called Slavs"

    850-900 AD:

    Alfred the Great's translation of Orosius' Chorography

    =====

    *I added "after 1 AD" because there are a few sources which perhaps refer to the East European Venedi from BC times, but this is uncertain.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 24-05-22 at 03:58.

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    Such a curiosity, a German author - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Andree - wrote in his 1831 book:

    https://books.google.pl/books?id=xgUEAAAAYAAJ&pg=P219

    "Since times immemorial Slavs inhabited the lands between the Baltic Sea [Ostsee] and the Black Sea"



    ^^^
    So it looks like he supported the idea that the Venethi mentioned by Tacitus (Germania, 46) were Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Such a curiosity, a German author - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Andree - wrote in his 1831 book:

    https://books.google.pl/books?id=xgUEAAAAYAAJ&pg=P219

    "Since times immemorial Slavs inhabited the lands between the Baltic Sea [Ostsee] and the Black Sea"



    ^^^
    So it looks like he supported the idea that the Venethi mentioned by Tacitus (Germania, 46) were Slavs.

    but linguistic studies show they had Finnic origins .........same as their southern neighbours the Phinnoi

    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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