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Thread: Massive paper on Stone age Europe and Eurasia. New HG ancestry in Steppe herders

  1. #26
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    interesting

    Interestingly, two herein reported ~7,300-year-old imputed genomes from the Middle Don River region in the Pontic-Caspian steppe (Golubaya Krinitsa, NEO113 & NEO212) derive ~20-30% of their ancestry from a source cluster of hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus (Caucasus_13000BP_10000BP) (Fig. 3). Additional lower coverage (non-imputed) genomes from the same site project in the same PCA space (Fig. 1D), shifted away from the European hunter-gatherer cline towards Iran and the Caucasus. Our results thus document genetic contact between populations from the Caucasus and the Steppe region as early as 7,300 years ago, providing documentation of continuous admixture prior to the advent of later nomadic Steppe cultures, in contrast to recent hypotheses, and also further to the west than previously reported.
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    What I do not get...
    So to get to the supposed Yamnaya Steppe admix according to this model you would need these Don HGs, who within themselves had CHG, but on top of that you would need 30% more CHG. Meaning that the Don HGs admixed with a CHG heavy population to get to Yamnaya, all these predating steppe pastoralism? I mean its quite straight forward to get, simple really, but what confuses me is when you supplement these autosomal picture to the YDNA of modern Steppe derived populations as well as ancient samples.
    For one the female mediated admixture for the CHG makes 0 sense, as it would not increase the CHG post 5-4k BC in any population by 30%... even if these females were pure CHG, an autosomal profile which from what I gather did not exist at the time.

    So how do we reconcile the YDNA picture with what now 3(?) different groups of anthrogeneticists paint as far as autosomal early IE history goes?
    Can someone enlighten me what was the CHG YDNA?

    Edit: Wikipedia to the rescue:

    Jones et al. (2015) analyzed genomes from males from western Georgia, in the Caucasus, from the Late Upper Palaeolithic (13,300 years old) and the Mesolithic (9,700 years old). These two males carried Y-DNAhaplogroup: J* and J2a, later refined to J1-FT34521, and J2-Y12379*, and mitochondrial haplogroups of K3 and H13c, respectively.[9]

    So it seems J2a and J, I really am curious now if the 9700bp J2b is really a sample, or they just mislabeled the J2a as J2b on this paper.
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    Also for all the flack Davidski gets when his (quite often as the many deleted posts suggest) contrarian theories go south, credit where its due, if this paper can be relied on from what I gather IE homeland is indeed Europe, and not Iran. But I do think he mischaracterized Anthony's thesis, as from what I gather they are kind of saying the same thing, just interpreting it differently. An analysis I have no care to elaborate on.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    These maps summarise well the evolution of each main regional ancestry in western Eurasia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Guess we have to wait till the samples are published to reach a consensus on these issues. I am particularly interested in the Middle Don HGs and the UP Kotias Klde samples.
    I would particularly like to see how well they match with Anatolia_N.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    These maps summarise well the evolution of each main regional ancestry in western Eurasia.

    Extended Data Fig 6. Spatiotemporal kriging of four major ancestry clusters over the last 12,000 years of human history. LVN = ancestry maximized in Anatolian farmer populations. WHG = ancestry maximized in western European hunter

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I would particularly like to see how well they match with Anatolia_N.
    Exactly, that's one of the things I want to test myself.

    Models attempting to reconstruct major post-LGM clusters such as European hunter-gatherers and Anatolian farmers without contributions from this Caucasus UP lineage provided poor admixture graph fits or were rejected in qpAdm analyses (Extended Data Fig. 5B,C). These results thus suggest a central role of the descendants related to this Caucasus UP lineage in the formation of later West Eurasian populations, consistent with recent genetic data from the nearby Dzudzuana Cave, also in Georgia.
    Looks like UP Caucasus played a major role even in the formation of European HGs.

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    The thing is Caucasus in general is not the most hospitable place for HGs one would imagine. So possibly the geography rather acted like a refugia that kept particular pops alive to disperse in waves and affect all these other HG populations. At least that could explain it why it exuded so much influence on early European pops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Exactly, that's one of the things I want to test myself.



    Looks like UP Caucasus played a major role even in the formation of European HGs.

    Doesn't look like that here.
    At least not for WHG.

    qpgraph-dzudzuana.jpg

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    For anyone who has slogged through the whole paper and especially the parts on traits I'll just say that I find the methodology rather dodgy.

    Also, read through some of the comments on Khan's content. Irritability, more emotional lability etc. are not mental illnesses. They're personality traits.

    What I'm surprised by is that they didn't try to actually find the "real" mental illnesses, like clinical depression and bipolar disorder, which indeed track differently in Europe on a north south or south north cline.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    Doesn't look like that here.
    At least not for WHG.

    qpgraph-dzudzuana.jpg
    Yep, that's right and it's interesting that according to that graph Dzudzuana is 72% West Eurasian + 28% Basal Eurasian, that's very close to the admixture graph modelling for UP Caucasus (Kotias Klde). See here:
    Using admixture graph modelling, we find that this Caucasus UP lineage derives from a mixture of predominantly West Eurasian UP hunter-gatherer ancestry (76%) with ~24% contribution from a “basal Eurasian” ghost population, first observed in West Asian Neolithic individuals (Extended Data Fig. 5A).


    But it's not my observation, it´s the paper that is contrarian to your graph. The paper implies that European HGs need a contribution from UP Caucasus if I understand it correctly.

    See here:
    Models attempting to reconstruct major post-LGM clusters such as European hunter-gatherers and Anatolian farmers without contributions from this Caucasus UP lineage provided poor admixture graph fits or were rejected in qpAdm analyses (Extended Data Fig. 5B,C). These results thus suggest a central role of the descendants related to this Caucasus UP lineage in the formation of later West Eurasian populations, consistent with recent genetic data from the nearby Dzudzuana Cave, also in Georgia30.


    -----


    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    The thing is Caucasus in general is not the most hospitable place for HGs one would imagine. So possibly the geography rather acted like a refugia that kept particular pops alive to disperse in waves and affect all these other HG populations. At least that could explain it why it exuded so much influence on early European pops.


    I agree, if I recall corretly according to the Lazaridis paper a Dzudzuana-like population was all over the Near East, from Levant (Natufians) over Anatolia and Caucasus to Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Yep, that's right and it's interesting that according to that graph Dzudzuana is 72% West Eurasian + 28% Basal Eurasian, that's very close to the admixture graph modelling for UP Caucasus (Kotias Klde). See here:


    But it's not my observation, it´s the paper that is contrarian to your graph. The paper implies that European HGs need a contribution from UP Caucasus if I understand it correctly.

    See here:



    -----




    I agree, if I recall corretly according to the Lazaridis paper a Dzudzuana-like population was all over the Near East, from Levant (Natufians) over Anatolia and Caucasus to Iran.
    Kotias Klde and Dzudzuana are in the same area, and both samples are from the same period, so it's likely they are very similar.

    EHG = ANE + WHG

    while CHG = Dzudzuana + EHG/ANE and Iranian Neolithic is also Dzudzuana with a little less EHG/ANE
    so, I would think, it is the other way around, EHG contributed to the formation of CHG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For anyone who has slogged through the whole paper and especially the parts on traits I'll just say that I find the methodology rather dodgy.

    Also, read through some of the comments on Khan's content. Irritability, more emotional lability etc. are not mental illnesses. They're personality traits.

    What I'm surprised by is that they didn't try to actually find the "real" mental illnesses, like clinical depression and bipolar disorder, which indeed track differently in Europe on a north south or south north cline.
    Aren't those depressions often induced by the dark winters in the north and not by genetics?
    I know that DNA can make someone more prone to depression than others, but still there is still an external factor needed to induce it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    Aren't those depressions often induced by the dark winters in the north and not by genetics?
    I know that DNA can make someone more prone to depression than others, but still there is still an external factor needed to induce it.
    Clinical depression is very highly genetically heritable, i.e. about 50% according to Stanford in their website.
    .Ed. Sorry, the site isn't letting me post the link to the paper. Just google Major Depressive Disorder-Stanford Medicine.


    They're talking about "MAJOR" depressive disorder, not temporary depression following certain life events, for example, or seasonal affective disorder.

    This is true for all mental health disorders, especially schizophrenia, which goes up above 80%, although more people fall prey to MDD than to the other types of mental illness.


    Alcoholism is another disorder with a strong genetic basis and it affects a LOT of people in certain countries, as does drug abuse. Both of them are often co-dependent disorders which are linked with Major Depressive Disorder.

    There are numerous papers on the subject if you're interested in the topic.

    I had to explore a lot of these issues for my work, and ultimately it left me feeling that although dangerous people have to be removed from society for the greater good, their actual "responsibility", while not a factor in criminal trials in most cases, is a very nuanced issue.

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    I think people are overreaching with this stuff. Not everything is related to HG/EEF ratios. This paper made clear that even steppe-heavy people adopted farming thousands of years ago.

    The kind of rapid population expansion of steppe people wouldn't have been possible without thousands of years of agriculture. Pastoralist nomads are low in population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Clinical depression is very highly genetically heritable, i.e. about 50% according to Stanford in their website.
    .Ed. Sorry, the site isn't letting me post the link to the paper. Just google Major Depressive Disorder-Stanford Medicine.


    They're talking about "MAJOR" depressive disorder, not temporary depression following certain life events, for example, or seasonal affective disorder.

    This is true for all mental health disorders, especially schizophrenia, which goes up above 80%, although more people fall prey to MDD than to the other types of mental illness.


    Alcoholism is another disorder with a strong genetic basis and it affects a LOT of people in certain countries, as does drug abuse. Both of them are often co-dependent disorders which are linked with Major Depressive Disorder.

    There are numerous papers on the subject if you're interested in the topic.

    I had to explore a lot of these issues for my work, and ultimately it left me feeling that although dangerous people have to be removed from society for the greater good, their actual "responsibility", while not a factor in criminal trials in most cases, is a very nuanced issue.
    I myself am prone to depression.
    But cycling and tennis keep both my body and mind in good shape.
    Winter can be a bit harder sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Yep, that's right and it's interesting that according to that graph Dzudzuana is 72% West Eurasian + 28% Basal Eurasian, that's very close to the admixture graph modelling for UP Caucasus (Kotias Klde). See here:


    But it's not my observation, it´s the paper that is contrarian to your graph. The paper implies that European HGs need a contribution from UP Caucasus if I understand it correctly.

    See here:



    -----




    I agree, if I recall corretly according to the Lazaridis paper a Dzudzuana-like population was all over the Near East, from Levant (Natufians) over Anatolia and Caucasus to Iran.
    I know its speculative rn. But how would you say the 9700 Kotias Klde J2b this paper mentions relates to UP Caucasus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    I myself am prone to depression.
    But cycling and tennis keep both my body and mind in good shape.
    Winter can be a bit harder sometimes.
    That's a very healthy way to keep depression in check, as exercise releases natural endorphins. Anti-depressive drugs are of questionable use, imo, as some people have the opposite reaction to them, with them increasing the depression. So much so that the medications often come with the warning to cease taking if suicidal thoughts appear.

    My weakness is anxiety, inherited from my mother (my father didn't have an anxious bone in his body) although it's not generalized anxiety disorder; it's more a case of having a heightened anxiety reaction to very stressful situations (serious illness, even sometimes not so serious, or approaching death of a loved one, or myself for that matter, etc. being the most common one).

    It can extend to things like being pretty anxious when my children learned to drive and would get home very late. I would worry they'd drink too much or do too much weed or fall asleep at the wheel. Even though I missed them terribly, I was so glad when they moved out. :) What I didn't see didn't trigger me.

    Deep breathing and meditation are very helpful, and cognitive processes, like refusing to let your thoughts spiral into all the possible reasonable consequences of the situation. "Take everything one day at a time", is a cliché, but a helpful one.

    Interestingly, I'm drawn to other people who have some anxiety or can be a bit depressed at times. I find phlegmatic types really boring after a while, and I'm ashamed to say that when I'm with people who are like that, always calm and cheery, I sometimes wonder if they're pretending, or are really stupid, or have no experience of the darker aspects of reality, or are on the autism spectrum or something. It's like positivity that is so extreme it's toxic. Mean, and undoubtedly wrong, I know, but I'm being honest.

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    Ivory Coast 3.80% 843,736 27,742,298
    Malaysia 3.80% 1,127,643 33,181,072
    DR Congo 3.80% 2,871,309 95,240,792
    Maldives 3.70% 12,739 540,985
    Guatemala 3.70% 580,994 18,584,039
    North Korea 3.70% 874,632 25,990,679
    Iraq 3.70% 1,263,249 42,164,965
    Myanmar 3.70% 1,917,983 55,227,143
    Indonesia 3.70% 9,162,886 279,134,505
    Mali 3.60% 605,969 21,473,764
    Burkina Faso 3.60% 640,502 22,102,838
    Yemen 3.60% 915,231 31,154,867
    Angola 3.60% 892,128 35,027,343
    Sudan 3.60% 1,376,305 45,992,020
    Fiji 3.50% 30,568 909,466
    Liberia 3.50% 155,406 5,305,117
    Chad 3.50% 478,228 17,413,580
    Egypt 3.50% 2,995,824 106,156,692
    Cambodia 3.40% 508,823 17,168,639
    Niger 3.40% 653,348 26,083,660
    Afghanistan 3.30% 1,038,610 40,754,388
    Philippines 3.30% 3,298,652 112,508,994
    Tonga 3.20% 3,205 107,749
    Samoa 3.20% 5,803 202,239
    Laos 3.20% 209,326 7,481,023
    Nepal 3.20% 890,361 30,225,582
    Micronesia 3.10% 3,182 117,489
    Kiribati 3.10% 3,452 123,419
    Vanuatu 3.10% 7,917 321,832
    Timor Leste 3.00% 33,932 1,369,429
    Papua New Guinea 3.00% 223,094 9,292,169
    Solomon Islands 2.90% 16,535 721,159
    https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...tes-by-country
    "No-winter nations" seem to do much better.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Am I the only one that struggles the most during spring? lol... Winters do be cozy af, but spring gets me mood swingy af.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Am I the only one that struggles the most during spring? lol... Winters do be cozy af, but spring gets me mood swingy af.
    Maybe your home is a true comfort zone and mingling outside makes you feel uneasy?

  22. #47
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    Maybe your home is a true comfort zone and mingling outside makes you feel uneasy?
    Not sure, but doubt it, since I tend to go out winter or summer. I suspect it has something to do with hormones during spring making the highs higher and lows lower, while during winter it feels more streamlined for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Interestingly, I'm drawn to other people who have some anxiety or can be a bit depressed at times. I find phlegmatic types really boring after a while, and I'm ashamed to say that when I'm with people who are like that, always calm and cheery, I sometimes wonder if they're pretending, or are really stupid, or have no experience of the darker aspects of reality, or are on the autism spectrum or something. It's like positivity that is so extreme it's toxic. Mean, and undoubtedly wrong, I know, but I'm being honest.
    I'm rather optimist in front of recent punctual events spite I 'm not so concerning Humanity's ability to manage his future on the long term.
    Concerning future, I prefer prudence and acts to anxiety.

  24. #49
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I'm rather optimist in front of recent punctual events spite I 'm not so concerning Humanity's ability to manage his future on the long term.
    Concerning future, I prefer prudence and acts to anxiety.
    Well, if a loved one gets a diagnosis of a terminal cancer, which I've seen too much of in my life, there's nothing much I can do about it.

    Likewise, if I get a diagnosis of a chronic illness which may not kill me, but will to a certain extent incapacitate me, which modern medicine doesn't really understand and where the treatments do not eradicate most of the symptoms, all while having to raise young children, it's a bit much to expect one to be cheerily optimistic.

    Perhaps there are such people, but I'm not one of them.

    A lot of times, it seems to me, people are optimistic because in their lives the things they're worrying about have not in general happened.

    To some extent, optimism vs pessimism can become a learned behavior, although there is definitely a genetic component.

    The same applies to one's view of human nature. I often want to say to people, walk around with a criminal prosecutor during his/her working hours for a year, and then tell me about the nobility of human nature, and how laws are too stringent..

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    Quote Originally Posted by firetown View Post
    Country Prevalence Cases 2022 Population
    Ukraine 6.30% 2,800,587 43,192,122
    Estonia 5.90% 75,667 1,321,910
    Australia 5.90% 1,318,599 26,068,792
    United States 5.90% 17,491,047 334,805,269
    Brazil 5.80% 11,548,577 215,353,593
    Portugal 5.70% 578,234 10,140,570
    Greece 5.70% 593,136 10,316,637
    Lithuania 5.60% 169,685 2,661,708
    Finland 5.60% 293,921 5,554,960
    Belarus 5.60% 510,764 9,432,800
    Cuba 5.50% 605,879 11,305,652
    Russia 5.50% 7,815,714 145,805,947
    Barbados 5.40% 14,586 288,023
    Moldova 5.40% 207,247 4,013,171
    New Zealand 5.40% 221,338 4,898,203
    Bahamas 5.20% 19,138 400,516
    Trinidad And Tobago 5.20% 67,614 1,406,585
    Bulgaria 5.20% 360,724 6,844,597
    Paraguay 5.20% 332,628 7,305,843
    Czech Republic 5.20% 525,488 10,736,784
    Spain 5.20% 2,408,700 46,719,142
    Germany 5.20% 2,116,728 83,883,596
    Antigua And Barbuda 5.10% 4,424 99,509
    Malta 5.10% 20,049 444,033
    Djibouti 5.10% 43,909 1,016,097
    Cyprus 5.10% 42,662 1,223,387
    Slovenia 5.10% 99,864 2,078,034
    Qatar 5.10% 105,684 2,979,915
    Bosnia And Herzegovina 5.10% 185,557 3,249,317
    Croatia 5.10% 205,541 4,059,286
    Slovakia 5.10% 268,516 5,460,193
    Austria 5.10% 415,916 9,066,710
    Hungary 5.10% 493,783 9,606,259
    United Arab Emirates 5.10% 444,016 10,081,785
    Poland 5.10% 1,878,988 37,739,785
    Italy 5.10% 3,049,986 60,262,770
    Luxembourg 5.00% 26,350 642,371
    Armenia 5.00% 142,712 2,971,966
    Uruguay 5.00% 158,005 3,496,016
    Georgia 5.00% 189,241 3,968,738
    Kuwait 5.00% 181,756 4,380,326
    Denmark 5.00% 267,213 5,834,950
    Serbia 5.00% 419,302 8,653,016
    Switzerland 5.00% 388,870 8,773,637
    Romania 5.00% 931,842 19,031,335
    Chile 5.00% 844,253 19,250,195
    Saint Vincent And the Grenadines 4.90% 5,144 111,551
    Saint Lucia 4.90% 8,892 185,113
    Cape Verde 4.90% 24,240 567,678
    Latvia 4.90% 102,702 1,848,837
    Sweden 4.90% 446,734 10,218,971
    Tunisia 4.90% 518,432 12,046,656
    Iran 4.90% 3,637,308 86,022,837
    Suriname 4.80% 24,914 596,831
    Montenegro 4.80% 28,627 627,950
    Bahrain 4.80% 62,549 1,783,983
    Lesotho 4.80% 98,988 2,175,699
    Albania 4.80% 131,048 2,866,374
    Jamaica 4.80% 134,054 2,985,094
    Ireland 4.80% 212,555 5,020,199
    Belgium 4.80% 502,075 11,668,278
    Peru 4.80% 1,443,513 33,684,208
    France 4.80% 2,949,572 65,584,518
    Grenada 4.70% 4,848 113,475
    Botswana 4.70% 102,065 2,441,162
    Costa Rica 4.70% 216,608 5,182,354
    Oman 4.70% 199,961 5,323,993
    Norway 4.70% 227,446 5,511,370
    Lebanon 4.70% 255,280 6,684,849
    Dominican Republic 4.70% 464,164 11,056,370
    Netherlands 4.70% 752,777 17,211,447
    Canada 4.70% 1,566,903 38,388,419
    Argentina 4.70% 1,914,354 46,010,234
    Colombia 4.70% 2,177,280 51,512,762
    Ethiopia 4.70% 4,480,113 120,812,698
    Singapore 4.60% 162,203 5,943,546
    Israel 4.60% 342,181 8,922,892
    Azerbaijan 4.60% 428,873 10,300,205
    Uganda 4.60% 1,747,769 48,432,863
    South Africa 4.60% 2,402,230 60,756,135
    Guyana 4.50% 33,700 794,045
    Libya 4.50% 265,833 7,040,745
    Saudi Arabia 4.50% 1,339,976 35,844,909
    Morocco 4.50% 1,484,441 37,772,756
    Algeria 4.50% 1,683,914 45,350,148
    United Kingdom 4.50% 2,692,081 68,497,907
    India 4.50% 56,675,969 1,406,631,776
    Belize 4.40% 14,956 412,190
    Comoros 4.40% 33,769 907,419
    Mauritius 4.40% 52,570 1,274,727
    Namibia 4.40% 104,001 2,633,874
    Panama 4.40% 162,293 4,446,964
    El Salvador 4.40% 255,032 6,550,389
    South Sudan 4.40% 529,011 11,618,511
    Bolivia 4.40% 453,716 11,992,656
    Kazakhstan 4.40% 732,699 19,205,043
    Madagascar 4.40% 1,041,000 29,178,077
    Kenya 4.40% 1,952,981 56,215,221
    Thailand 4.40% 2,885,221 70,078,203
    Turkey 4.40% 3,260,677 85,561,976
    Gabon 4.30% 7,303 2,331,533
    Eritrea 4.30% 219,549 3,662,244
    Haiti 4.30% 437,639 11,680,283
    Bhutan 4.20% 30,947 787,941
    Eswatini 4.20% 53,223 1,184,817
    Equatorial Guinea 4.20% 34,909 1,496,662
    Mongolia 4.20% 117,436 3,378,078
    Central African Republic 4.20% 202,081 5,016,678
    Turkmenistan 4.20% 214,010 6,201,943
    Nicaragua 4.20% 238,161 6,779,100
    Burundi 4.20% 448,822 12,624,840
    Venezuela 4.20% 1,270,099 29,266,991
    Ghana 4.20% 110,048 32,395,450
    Uzbekistan 4.20% 1,186,450 34,382,084
    Japan 4.20% 5,058,124 125,584,838
    Mexico 4.20% 4,936,614 131,562,772
    Pakistan 4.20% 7,436,224 229,488,994
    China 4.20% 54,815,739 1,448,471,400
    Iceland 4.10% 12,533 345,393
    Mauritania 4.10% 160,624 4,901,981
    Kyrgyzstan 4.10% 229,637 6,728,271
    Malawi 4.10% 679,385 20,180,839
    Sri Lanka 4.10% 802,321 21,575,842
    Mozambique 4.10% 1,122,987 33,089,461
    South Korea 4.10% 1,904,645 51,329,899
    Tanzania 4.10% 2,138,939 63,298,550
    Bangladesh 4.10% 6,391,760 167,885,689
    Seychelles 4.00% 3,722 99,426
    Guinea Bissau 4.00% 71,467 2,063,367
    Honduras 4.00% 308,862 10,221,247
    Jordan 4.00% 287,844 10,300,869
    Zimbabwe 4.00% 603,529 15,331,428
    Somalia 4.00% 420,387 16,841,795
    Zambia 4.00% 636,819 19,470,234
    Vietnam 4.00% 3,564,934 98,953,541
    Sao Tome And Principe 3.90% 7,270 227,679
    Gambia 3.90% 74,821 2,558,482
    Sierra Leone 3.90% 243,895 8,306,436
    Togo 3.90% 277,532 8,680,837
    Benin 3.90% 411,695 12,784,726
    Guinea 3.90% 474,541 13,865,691
    Senegal 3.90% 560,991 17,653,671
    Syria 3.90% 688,074 19,364,809
    Cameroon 3.90% 886,273 27,911,548
    Nigeria 3.90% 7,079,815 216,746,934
    Tajikistan 3.80% 304,018 9,957,464
    Rwanda 3.80% 425,516 13,600,464
    Ivory Coast 3.80% 843,736 27,742,298
    Malaysia 3.80% 1,127,643 33,181,072
    DR Congo 3.80% 2,871,309 95,240,792
    Maldives 3.70% 12,739 540,985
    Guatemala 3.70% 580,994 18,584,039
    North Korea 3.70% 874,632 25,990,679
    Iraq 3.70% 1,263,249 42,164,965
    Myanmar 3.70% 1,917,983 55,227,143
    Indonesia 3.70% 9,162,886 279,134,505
    Mali 3.60% 605,969 21,473,764
    Burkina Faso 3.60% 640,502 22,102,838
    Yemen 3.60% 915,231 31,154,867
    Angola 3.60% 892,128 35,027,343
    Sudan 3.60% 1,376,305 45,992,020
    Fiji 3.50% 30,568 909,466
    Liberia 3.50% 155,406 5,305,117
    Chad 3.50% 478,228 17,413,580
    Egypt 3.50% 2,995,824 106,156,692
    Cambodia 3.40% 508,823 17,168,639
    Niger 3.40% 653,348 26,083,660
    Afghanistan 3.30% 1,038,610 40,754,388
    Philippines 3.30% 3,298,652 112,508,994
    Tonga 3.20% 3,205 107,749
    Samoa 3.20% 5,803 202,239
    Laos 3.20% 209,326 7,481,023
    Nepal 3.20% 890,361 30,225,582
    Micronesia 3.10% 3,182 117,489
    Kiribati 3.10% 3,452 123,419
    Vanuatu 3.10% 7,917 321,832
    Timor Leste 3.00% 33,932 1,369,429
    Papua New Guinea 3.00% 223,094 9,292,169
    Solomon Islands 2.90% 16,535 721,159
    https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...tes-by-country
    "No-winter nations" seem to do much better.
    I'm not so sure of that? It looks like a mixed bag to me.

    "Top 10 Countries with the Highest Rates of Depression:


    1. Ukraine - 6.3%
    2. United States - 5.9% (tie)
    3. Estonia - 5.9% (tie)
    4. Australia - 5.9% (tie)
    5. Brazil - 5.8%
    6. Greece - 5.7% (tie)
    7. Portugal - 5.7% (tie)
    8. Belarus - 5.6% (tie)
    9. Finland - 5.6% (tie)
    10. Lithuania - 5.6% (ti


    That said, there's no distinction between situational depression and non-situational depression in these figures. If you live in some poverty and disease stricken areas of war torn Africa you'd have to be comatose not to be depressed at your situation. MDD often occurs for no articulable reason at all.

    I once got a hint of what it must be like. After my mother's funeral, I went to bed and just lay there crying for a few days. My husband became concerned and got my doctor to prescribe me an anti-depressant which years later was banned for inducing depression in people. Within 24 hours it was as if a black cloud had descended on me. I wasn't crying, I just had absolutely no desire to get out of that bed again. Each day it got worse. I threw the tablets away, and in a week, although still grieving, I was able to pick up the pieces of my life again. Horrifically, some people's own brains do that to them. William Styron, the author, who suffered from it as did his father, who committed suicide, has written a wonderful book about how it feels to descend into that black hole. Sometimes, before being judgmental you have to try to walk a while in someone else's shoes.

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