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Thread: Kosovo: Albanian Anti-Ottoman revolt (1690)

  1. #26
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    I am also not sure what the whole Kosova case has anything to do with some what the guy claims were 'loyal' Pashas in Albania. How does this prove the whole Serbian nationalist narrative which seems to be completely false ?

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    Prizren was mostly Muslim, Vushtrri etc was mostly Muslim. The guy who led the anti-Ottoman resistance was Bogdani, a Catholic, but there were both Muslims and Catholics in the ranks. The 5,000 Arnauts mentioned were mostly Muslim, many if not most of the 20,000 Arnauts mentioned were also Muslim as were many of the 6,000. Arnaut was also a term for a Muslim Albanian.

    So much for 'loyal servants' , the guy has swallowed too much Serbian and Western propaganda that seems to confuse religious affiliation with being pro-Ottoman. These texts clearly mention Christian Serbs in the ranks among the Ottoman army, texs also mention Christians on the Ottoman side in the battle of Kosovo 1389 and 1448.

    Seems like I am having a debate with a guy who has absolutely no idea about Albanian history. Does not even seem to be aware of the Albanian national awakening or the various revolts against the Ottomans.

    Balkan Wars would of never happened had it not been for these revolts first of all. It is pretty much what allowed the Serbs to invade Albanian lands since it pretty much weakened if not practically defeated the Ottoman Empire. Yet claims we would of never had our independence...

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    QUOTE:

    ''
    And a further complication is introduced by
    the term 'Arnaut', which could be used
    as a synonym for Albanian but tended
    to suggest those Albanians (in the ethnic-linguistic sense)
    who acted as soldiers for the Ottomans-though these it should be noted
    included Catholic Albanians as well as Muslim ones.


    Piccolomini then moved to Prizren, where he was met by the Catholic
    Archbishop Pjeter Bogdani. This was not
    their first meeting: soon after the arrival of the Austrians in Kosovo,
    Bogdani had gone to see Piccolomini to request that the soldiers
    would not molest members of his flock. No doubt
    their discussion at that previous meeting had
    included suggestion that Bogdani rally the population
    of Prizren in support of the Austrians;
    and so it was that, in Contarinis words,
    Near Prizren, as Piccolomini was approaching
    , the inhabitants came out to meet him with festive
    shouts: they were 5,000 in number and were led by their Archbishiop,
    holding a banner with an image of the Holy Cross.

    In 1624, Pjeter Mazrreku reported that Prizren had roughly
    200 Catholic inhabitants and 600 Servani. But the great bulk
    of the population, 12,000 people in 1624 - were Muslims, almost
    all of them Albanians.


    No doubt the 5,000 who came out to welcome Piccolomini
    did include many of the local Christians, both
    Catholic and Orthodox, but they can hardly have accounted
    for more than fifth of that crowd..


    It is surely significant that one of the earliest printed accounts of
    these events, an anonymous text based on original documents, refers to
    Piccolomini being greeted at Prizren by '5,000 Arnauts, who were partly Christian
    Albanians and partly Muslim Albanians


    Mazrreku also noted that the conversion to Islam was quite supperficial;
    in 1671 another report on this area stated
    that '28 years ago there were many Christians[Catholics] now there remain
    300 women and very few men, the rest having abjured their faith
    in order to escape impositions and taxes.

    ''

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Many Albanians in Kosova were already Muslims actually. Prizren in Kosova was mostly Muslim Albanian, so was Vushtrri etc. Many of these people who revolted were Muslim and they are mentioned as Muslim who had formerly fought in the Ottoman ranks and were paid wages, some are mentioned as faithless, some sources mention them as both Muslim and Christians. There are Serbs mentioned also and they also mention Serbs in the Ottoman ranks.

    Though you are right there were also Catholics. But there were also Catholics from Northern Albania that came assist if you read Noel Malcolm's essay on this.

    The guy has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. In Serbian and Western media this whole revolt is depicted as Serbian, while Albanians were people who supported the Ottomans. It is then claimed Serbs departed. The texts of these periods easily prove this is nonsense.

    Serving in the Ottoman ranks certainly does not make you a loyal servant. They were paid wages and all Balkan people did this to some degree.
    They chose side based on their interests when the time came down to it. National unity etc did not exist at the time.

    Not much historical evidence that supports our people were constant 'loyal' Ottoman servants while the Serbs were rebellious liberators that were pushed out. In fact, many Serbs settled Kosova during the Ottoman period, 1700's, 1800's etc. Also some Vlachs. I am not sure what the guy is even trying to get at. One can easily read texts from these periods to prove this is nonsense.

    In Kosova we did not become the absolute majority until the mid/late 1800's for example when they expelled Albanians from what is today South-Eastern Serbia.
    Look at the register of 16th century (1571). Muslims in the rural regions were still rare. This changes however drastically after the Bogdani campaign. But yeah, Vushtrri, Prizren, Peje and Prishtine were the centres that were pred Muslim from the early days. Most of the city dwellers later on also considering themselves to be Turks too.

    Sure, this is also the time when animosities rise between Albanians and Serb communities in Kosove - after the Serbian atrocities in South-Eastern Serbia. Prior to that there were conflicts, but mostly local isolated incidents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    I am also not sure what the whole Kosova case has anything to do with some what the guy claims were 'loyal' Pashas in Albania. How does this prove the whole Serbian nationalist narrative which seems to be completely false ?
    This is not about what Serbian say, it is about the truth. The whole feudal system on Albania was based on timar (land title)!to obtain timar you had to be serve in the ottoman army. So the land of the Kastrioti in Kruja or Tirana after the war was lost was spilt between Hasan Sadik Qerim that served in the Ottoman army. Overall this people were loyal, but if the taxes where to hight they rebelled. This is the situation in Albania in the low lands with few exemptions. If you say that Kosovo is different, I have no reason to doubt you. But do not mix what I am saying with Serbian propaganda.


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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    You are mixing two different periods with over 200 years in between. For the period we are talking about, Albanians in Kosove were predominantly Catholic. Especially in the rural regions.
    The argument i was making was that overall Albanians were considered loyal by the Ottomans. Definitely this is not valid from the beginning when there was a lot of residence but after that Albanians were a very strong pillar for the Ottoman Empire. It’s seem that in Kosovo you do not share the same thoughts.


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    regardless of ethnic-linguistic or
    religious identity; and if the Ottomans
    did seek out particular groups for
    specially harsh treatment, they would have
    targeted above all the Catholics
    (co-religionists of the Austrians),
    most of whom were ethnically Albanian.
    (The Catholic population of Kosovo, said
    to be roughly 1,000 households-well
    over 5000 people-by Bogdani in the
    early 1680s, was estiimated at 2,800
    people in 1693)


    But on the other hand there is evidence
    of a quite large drop in the population
    of the towns, most of which did not
    regain their pre-1690 levels until
    the nineteenth century; and the towns-of
    which this part of the Balkans possesed an unusually
    dense network-were overhelmingly
    populated by Muslim Albanians.(Jovan Cvijic's claim
    about the departure of 35,000 - 40,000 Serb
    families from Kosovo were implausible not only on
    numerical grounds, but also because he described those families as mostly
    urban.) When an observer such as Joseph Muller
    considered the small size of the Serb
    Orthodox population of Peje in the 1830s-just 130 households,
    compared with more than 2,000 Muslim
    households-he attributed this sorry state of affairs
    to the 'Great Exoduses' of the past; but if he had
    been able to consult Bogdani's detailed report
    of 1681, he would have found at that time the Serbs had
    just 100 households, and the Muslims 1,000
    ...............................

  8. #33
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    As for the fighting men who
    subsequently brought the total
    (at least in theory)
    to 20,000, some of these may also have
    been inhabitants of Prizren (which
    in 1670 had a population of roughly 50,000)
    but the evidence suggests that others
    were drawn from further afield. Contarini's account
    refers to Piccolomini, on his sickbed in Prizren,
    receiving 'the chiefs of the neighbouring peoples, who came
    to pay tribute to the Emperor with oaths of fealty.
    If, as seems likely, some of these chiefs
    had been summoned by Bogdani, we might expect them
    to have included leaders of Catholic clans in
    the nearby parts of the Malesi; and, indeed,
    an Ottoman document written in February 1690(just three months later)
    does refer to a large group of mostly
    Catholic clans from that area ( including the warlike Fandi)
    who had allied themselves with the Austrians.
    But the pledge of the total of 20,000 may well have included other
    Albanians from areas close to Prizren
    who were no longer Catholic, having
    been converted to Islam within the previous two or three generations-for example,
    the Shulla or Has region, where as Mazrreku reported in 1634,
    there had previously been 50 Catholic parishes
    but were now only five. Mazrreku also noted that the
    conversion to Islam was quite superficial; in 1671
    another report on this area stated that
    '28 years ago there were many Christians[sc.Catholics]: now
    there remain 300 women and very few men, the rest
    having abjured their faith in order to escape impositions and taxes.




    The point here is not that such people nursed
    a burning desire to restore,
    one day, their Catholic identity(this may have been true in some cases,
    those of the crypto-Christians, but these
    seem to have been few in number); rather, it is that
    recent attachment to Islam may not have involved
    anything like religious conviction, and that it is therefore wrong to assume that such
    people would have felt any special duty to support
    the Ottoman state merely because they were Muslims.
    What was going on in the mind of any local person when he or she
    decided to support the Austrians is difficult to reconstruct,
    and impossible to prove; but a modern approach which
    converts religious identities automatically into some sort of equivalent
    of national identities, and then expects blocks of people
    to have behaved along those fixed lines,
    is unlikely to give us a true picture of seventeenth-century provincial Balkan realities.
    The very small educated elite-the Christian clergy, above all-may have understood what Austria was,
    and what coming under its rule might mean; but ordinary
    people, including clan elders, probably had only haziest idea.
    Their recent experience of Ottoman rule was(contrary to what is implied in Stanford Shaw's account)
    extremely negative. Taxes and other exacations had, as always, risen sharply during the anti-Habsburg war;
    and, what is more, in 1687-9 the beylerbeyi of Rumeli, Yegen Osman
    pasha, had treated the territories under his rule as a personal fiefdom
    to be milked of its riches, and had employed armies
    of personal retaines to plunder it. That
    many local people might have welcomed as an alternative
    a largely unknown power-one that promised to respect
    their local rights, and one that was being
    promoted by a local figure, the Catholic Archbishop,
    whose moral authority extended beyond his own flock-should
    not greatly surprise us.
    However, when we recognize that such attitudes could cut across
    religious distinctions, this does not mean that we should fall back
    into the categories of most nineteenth- and twentieth-century Serbian
    or Albanian historians, with their axiomatic assumptions about a 'national' identity
    that always strove to throw off Ottoman rule. That
    many Albanians continued to serve in the
    Ottoman forces opposing the Austrians should not surprise us, even though we cannot
    reconstruct the precise combination of factors (economic interest, personal loyalty, local affiliation,
    codes of honour, and so on) that may have been involved.
    Similar considerations may apply to the case of the Slav Orthodox villagers of the Lume region
    South-west of Prizren, whose villages were burnt down by Holstein
    because he regarded them as hostile. One early account
    described Mahmut Begolli's army as consisting of 'Rascians' as well as Albanians;
    some of these 'Rascians' may also have been Orthodox Slavs.


    ........................

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    I personally don't see what this thread has anything to do with many Albanians being loyal to the Ottomans (Something many other Balkan people were too, used to even be lots of Greek Muslims, Turkified Muslims, Bulgarian Muslims, Serbian Muslims if you wanna relate religious affiliation to political ones, these nations also had a population exchange with Turkey exporting Muslims and Importing Orthodox) or serving in the Ottoman ranks or how it proves such theories. I am not even sure what you are trying to tell us here nor what it has to do with Kosova.

    The claim here is that most Albanians were loyal Ottoman servants while most Serbs were a people that constantly fought to throw off Ottoman rule. These are clearly false narratives. Another claim is that the Serbs, since the beginning of the Ottoman occupation, were genocided and oppressed by Albanians which there is no evidence for. What they have done is that they have taken modern national identities and political conflicts and projected this into these past events.

    What has that to do with our independence or many Albanians serving the Ottoman Empire ?


    Many Albanian claims are absolutely exaggerated too but the Serbian ones have had the most impact.




    Show me evidence of loyal Ottoman Albanian servants being transplanted in Kosova between period of 1448 to 1690, that supposedly genocided and terrorized Serbs ? I would prefer also to see sources from these periods, not nationalist drivel written hundreds of years later.

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    Yeah, he was quite the loyal servant

    Çerçiz Topulli (20 September 1880 – 17 July 1915) was an Albanian revolutionary and guerrilla fighter involved in the national movement operating in the mountainous areas of southern Albania.[1] He was the younger brother of Bajo Topulli.[2] He was known for fighting the Ottomans in 1907 and 1908 and then after they left, the Greeks in 1913 and 1914 during the Balkan Wars.
    Nice cherry picking.

    This idea that Balkan nations have been trying constantly to throw off Ottoman rule is nothing but a nationalist myth. By your logic I guess we were all loyal servants ? No according to your logic it was only Albanians, they all flocked together as loyal servants, you're projecting modern national identities into the past.

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    Here we have another 'loyal Servant'

    Idriz Seferi 14 March 1847 – 25 March 1927 was an Albanian leader and guerrilla fighter (rebel). A member of the League of Prizren and League of Peja, he was the right-hand man of Isa Boletini, with whom he organized the 1910 Uprising against the Ottoman Empire in the Kosovo Vilayet. After the suppression of the uprising, Seferi continued warfare, in the 1912 Uprising. In the First Balkan War, Boletini and Seferi rose up against Serbia, with whom they had previously been allies to during the 1910 and 1912 Uprisings, and continued to attack Serbian posts in the subsequent occupation and initial phase of World War I (1913-1915). In the second phase of the war (1916-1918), he led troops against Bulgarian forces.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idriz_Seferi

    Why is this forum so incredibly buggy btw ?

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    Some more 'Loyal Servant'

    Mic Sokoli (1839 – 20 April 1881) was an Albanian nationalist figure and guerrilla fighter from the Highlands of Gjakova.[1] He was a noted guerrilla leader during the years of the League of Prizren and took part in the fighting in Yakova against Mehmet Ali Pasha. He fought in the Battle of Nokshiq (near Grudë) against the Montenegrins. He is remembered by Albanians for an act of heroism in April 1881, in which he sacrificed himself by pressing his body against the mouth of a Ottoman cannon.[2][3]

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    My whole point is that Kosova had a large Albanian population before 1690, I don't know how this Albanian demographic growth in Kosova occurred but it certainly did not start any kind of ethno-nationalist conflict or some kind of genocide on Serbs.
    Nor evidence of some kind of loyal Albanian servants vs the Serbs who constantly fought to throw off Ottoman rule. If that was the case, the Serbs in Kosova would of been pushed out and driven out very early on. In one version their historians claim
    Albanians were encouraged to settle in the early Ottoman period and were given special rights by the Ottomans, in another version or combined with this version, weirdly enough, it is claimed Albanians came after 1690 as 'loyal servants' of the Ottomans while the rebellious Serbs were pushed out, which is also the theory many Western Historians promote. They claim there were two exoduses of Serbs, one in 1690 and another in the 1700's. If that was the case, then Kosova would of gained an absolute Albanian majority population very early on since it already had a large Albanian population before these years, combined with more Albanians, it would of gained an absolute Albanian majority early.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    The claim here is that most Albanians were loyal Ottoman servants while most Serbs were a people that constantly fought to throw off Ottoman rule. These are clearly false narratives.

    Show me evidence of loyal Ottoman Albanian servants being transplanted in Kosova between period of 1448 to 1690, that supposedly genocided and terrorized Serbs ? I would prefer also to see sources from these periods, not nationalist drivel written hundreds of years later.
    The first part is not wrong. Albanian were loyal ottoman subject. Second part is false, Serbs start to fight for their independence induced by Rusia and Rusia gifted them with independence after beating Ottoman Empire.

    Border or Trojet can help you with that they can indicate when Albanian Northern tribes moved in Kosovo plain based on DNA samples gather by the Albanian DNA project. From what I have heard the genetic distance is 500-600 years.





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    For example the German letter that I posted regarding Kosova in the 1600's and the Austrian Ottoman Wars,
    the part where it mentions the Archbishop of Albania and it mentions Patriarch of Clemente and Prizren being capital of Albania. It might look like it mentions two different people but it is the same person. Some Serbian writers have claimed this was the
    Serbian Arsenije who led an anti-Ottoman resistance but it was actually Pjeter Bogdani as shown by Austrian and Ottoman
    sources of the 17th century

    And this from wiki regarding Bogdani:

    After arranging for the publication of the Cuneus Prophetarum, Bogdani returned to the Balkans in March 1686 and spent the next years promoting resistance to the armies of the Ottoman Empire, in particular in Kosovo[a] . He and his vicar Toma Raspasani played a leading role in the pro-Austrian movement in Kosovo during the Great Turkish War.[9] He contributed a force of 6,000 Albanian soldiers to the Austrian army which had arrived in Pristina and accompanied it to capture Prizren. There, however, he and much of his army were met by another equally formidable adversary, the plague. Bogdani returned to Pristina but succumbed to the disease there in 6 December 1689.[10] His nephew, Gjergj Bogdani, reported in 1698 that his uncle's remains were later exhumed by Turkish and Tatar soldiers and fed to the dogs in the middle of the square in Pristina. So ended one of the great figures of early Albanian culture, the writer often referred to as the father of Albanian prose.

    He was born in the Has region in Kosova.

    It is claimed in Serbian and Western history that it was Arsenije Crnojevic III but there is no mention of him in any of these 17th sources, this stems from a misconception where it mentions 'Patriarch Clemente' , some Serbian writers basically interpreted this as the Patriarch Arsenije , but it's actually Pjeter Bogdani mentioned as the same person 'Archbishop of Albania' and he is mentioned by name by the Germans after having met up with them.

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    Many Serbian historians have assumed that this Archbishop was
    Arsenije, the Serbian Patriarch;
    some have argued that both men were present to greet Piccolomini;
    but there is conclusive evidence that
    Arsenije was in Montenegro at this time,
    and that he did not return to Kosovo until several weeks later,
    after Piccolomini's death.
    (The confusion was caused by an early report to Vienna,
    which apparently describe Bogdani not only as the Archbishop
    but also as the 'Patriarch of the Kelmendi'-some early writers
    mistakenly supposed that two different people were being referred
    to here, and some modern historians, while assuming
    that only one person was involved have taken the title 'Patriarch' as
    proof that it was Arsenije.)
    Those who have believed that Arsenije was the ecclesiastic leading the crowd
    of 5,000 people at Prizren have naturally also assumed that the crowd
    consisted of members of his flock-Orthodox Serbs. But once we recognize that the
    ecclesiastic was Bogdani, the problem of identifying his followers calls for more
    careful attention. According to his own report just four years
    earlier, Bogdani's entire flock in the territory of 'Serbia'(by
    which he meant an area very roughly corresponding to modern Kosovo)
    came to approximately 1,000 households, and could yield a maximum of 3,000 fighters.
    It is hardly likely that he had gathered all 3,000 in Prizren, and, even if he had, this would still not reach the
    stated total of 5,000 - who, in any case, were described as inhabitants of that town.
    The problem is intensified when we read, in some of the early accounts, that during
    the three days that Piccolomini remained with Bogdani in Prizren (before
    Piccolomini died of the plague), it was arranged that the Austrians would be supplied with 20,00 local fighters.
    Count Veterani, the commander of the Austrian campaign in this part of the Balkans in 1690,
    wrote in his memoirs of '20,000 Arnauts reduced to loyal obedience to the Emperor by Piccolomini'.

    So it was not Arsenije Crnojevic III but Albanian Catholic Pjeter Bogdani who led a resistance against Ottomans.

    The standard Serbian claims about the nature
    of the 'uprising' inside Kosovo in 1689 also carry some
    implications about the way that ethnic identity was
    felt by individuals at the time-with Serbs supporting
    the revolt, and Albanians standing mostly to one side. As
    I have previously tried to show, these claims-in the strong
    forms which have been current in much of the historiography-
    are not supported by the historical evidence.

    - Rebels, Believers, Survivors.

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    It is also mind blowing to me how this is all in the wikipedia section of 'Kosovo' and 'History of Kosovo' claiming it was Arsenije III , there should be put up a discussion there and everything should be removed and this information should be added. Some Albanian or some person that is skilled in wikipedia that could possibly help do this please and add some of this information ?

    As I was once actually IP banned there and I cannot deal with the people there but this is some serious false history.

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    In this German text below from Kosovo in the 17th century they are referring to the Albanian Catholic Pjeter Bogdani who met the
    Austrians in Kosovo

    For his part, he continued his march and arrived on the 6th, as reported earlier, in Prisiran [Prizren], the Capital of Albania, where he was welcomed by the Archbishop (5) [36r] of that country and by the Patriarch of Clementa with their various religious ceremonies.
    Outside of Priserin [Prizren] there were at least 6,000 Albanese [Albanian] troops as well as others who had formerly been in the pay of the Turks and who are known as Arnauts. When German troops marched by, they gave off three volleys of fire as a sign of their pleasure and then swore an oath of allegiance to the Emperor according to their custom. Piccolomini thus had over 20,000 Rascians and Albanese under his orders, all men of martial temperament, who were willing to undertake any endeavour, however great it should be, in accordance with the will of the General.
    In Serbian history they basically claim this was Arsenije Crnojevic III but there is no mention of him. The Archbishop of Albania and the Patriarch of Clementa refers to the Albanian Catholic Pjeter Bogdani. Clementa = Kelmendi, an Albanian name.

    There is also no mention of any 30,000 or 40,000 Serbian refugees.

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    Here is a repition and a summary of my post again since to make it all more simple and let it sink into peoples head. I advice all Albanians to take this and spam it all over the internet. The truth shall be known:

    It's not just the fact that the bulk of the largest number of people who rallied and took part in this revolt were Albanian, it's the fact that the guy who led the anti-Ottoman resistance in this revolt and joining the Austrians was not Arsenije Crnojevic III as claimed in Serbian history but the Albanian Pjeter Bogdani also known as 'Archbishop of Albania' or 'Patriarch of Kelmendi (Clemente) who is also mentioned by the Austrians to of met them in Prizren, Kosovo. Someone has basically made a misconception here and claimed that the word 'Patriarch' is referring to the Serbian Patriarch Arsenije Crnojevic but there is no mention of him in any of these texts nor that he led any 30,000 or 40,000 refugees.


    You can read the German text '1689 Kosovo in the Great Turkish War of 1683-1699' which I will link below , they do mention both Serbs and Albanians taking part in both revolts on Austrian and Ottoman side but the largest numbers of people joining the Austrians are mentioned as Albanian such as the 20,000 and the 5,000 and the 6,000 , when they mention Serbs with these large numbers they say 'Serbs and Albanians' they never mention Serbs alone but they do mention Albanians alone.

    The reputation of this commander grew more and more because of his orderliness such that 5,000 Arnauts [Muslim Albanians] in Pristina [Prishtina] who had risen against the Turks and [the inhabitants of] many of the major towns in the vicinity had given to understand that they would submit to the rule of the Emperor. Thus, when he arrived in Pristina, they swore allegiance to the Emperor and at that moment, this large tract of territory came under the shadow of the laurels of His Imperial Majesty.


    In this German text below from Kosovo in the 17th century they are referring to the Albanian Catholic Pjeter Bogdani who met the Austrians in Kosovo, In Prizren which they refer as the 'Capital of Albania' and where they met Albanians.

    For his part, he continued his march and arrived on the 6th, as reported earlier, in Prisiran [Prizren], the Capital of Albania, where he was welcomed by the Archbishop (5) [36r] of that country and by the Patriarch of Clementa with their various religious ceremonies.
    Outside of Priserin [Prizren] there were at least 6,000 Albanese [Albanian] troops as well as others who had formerly been in the pay of the Turks and who are known as Arnauts. When German troops marched by, they gave off three volleys of fire as a sign of their pleasure and then swore an oath of allegiance to the Emperor according to their custom. Piccolomini thus had over 20,000 Rascians and Albanese under his orders, all men of martial temperament, who were willing to undertake any endeavour, however great it should be, in accordance with the will of the General.


    In Serbian history they basically claim this was Arsenije Crnojevic III and that these were all Serbs but there is no mention of him. The Archbishop of Albania and the Patriarch of Clementa refers to the Albanian Catholic Pjeter Bogdani. Clementa = Kelmendi, an Albanian name.


    There is also no mention of any 30,000 or 40,000 Serbian refugees. Albanese, Arnaut etc is a word for Albanian. 'Rascian' was a word for Serb.


    Here they refer to 20,00 Albanians alone:

    His Imperial Majesty discovered that of the 20,000 Arnauts who under Piccolomini’s influence had sworn allegiance to the Emperor, only 300 remained to be relied on, because they had been so badly treated by His Grace and the other officers. Had the Duke not changed his mind when he realised the mistake, he would not have had a single one of them under his command. Even though the remaining men were marching among our Imperial forces, in their hearts they were unwilling. Whoever thinks he can subject great countries with harshness, discipline and modest forces is making a mistake. One can achieve much with an average army, but only by following the rules and taking council when mistakes are made. Holstein initially dismissed these peoples as superfluous and considered them as competition and an impediment to the interests of His Imperial Majesty. Having been persuaded by several leaders that all of these subjected peoples and those who had sworn allegiance, [43r] should pay tribute and should not bear any arms, he believed that a small force would be sufficient to keep an entire kingdom under control. Only then did he come to understand the means necessary to keep these conquered lands quiet and to incite them constantly against the Turks. When they had replenished their earlier militia, they decided to attack the quarters of the Austrians and, egged on by the Arnauts who had been badly treated by our men, returned to their earlier allegiance to the Muslims. Coming back to Strasser, he believed that he could do wonders with his haughty corps and could drive the enemy back to Sophia. By nature he was a violent man and not particularly polite. He was wont to exchange insults with the officers, both Germans and Rascian, that disgusted our men. Even Prince Carl more than once regretted having him under his command. Since Strasser was in essence a soldier, though somewhat too strict, he wanted to provoke the barbarians into doing battle with him. He therefore made the first move, trusting that his men, who in fact did not like him, would not abandon him.
    [44v] When the troops had marched for four hours, they arrived at a pass, less than a mile from Caccianek [Kaçanik] which they discovered that the Turks had taken. The Colonel camped there and, when he set off at 2 o’clock in the morning, he was advised by a lieutenant colonel of the Arnauts not to advance any further because Turkish forces were too great. However, he made fun of the man and called him a potron [kitten?]. At this, the Albanian exchanged some further words. Enraged, Strasser drew his pistol and shot the fellow in the arm, wounding him severely. He also went even further and had one of the other soldiers, from amongst the Albanians, executed for some minor offence

    The faithless Arnauts maintained contacts with our men. They had abandoned our side because of the bad treatment they had received from the Colonel and because Strasser had sentenced one of their comrades to death. They made it clear that, should the Germans actually attack, they would go over to the Ottoman side and assist in the total defeat of Imperial forces.






    Here an explanation from Noel from his newest book regarding the confusion about the Patriarch and Archbishop:

    Many Serbian historians have assumed that this Archbishop was
    Arsenije, the Serbian Patriarch; some have argued that both men were present to greet Piccolomini;
    but there is conclusive evidence that Arsenije was in Montenegro at this time,
    and that he did not return to Kosovo until several weeks later,
    after Piccolomini's death. (The confusion was caused by an early report to Vienna,
    which apparently describe Bogdani not only as the Archbishop
    but also as the 'Patriarch of the Kelmendi'-some early writers
    mistakenly supposed that two different people were being referred
    to here, and some modern historians, while assuming
    that only one person was involved have taken the title 'Patriarch' as
    proof that it was Arsenije.) Those who have believed that Arsenije was the ecclesiastic leading the crowd
    of 5,000 people at Prizren have naturally also assumed that the crowd
    consisted of members of his flock-Orthodox Serbs. But once we recognize that the
    ecclesiastic was Bogdani, the problem of identifying his followers calls for more
    careful attention. According to his own report just four years
    earlier, Bogdani's entire flock in the territory of 'Serbia'(by
    which he meant an area very roughly corresponding to modern Kosovo)
    came to approximately 1,000 households, and could yield a maximum of 3,000 fighters.
    It is hardly likely that he had gathered all 3,000 in Prizren, and, even if he had, this would still not reach the
    stated total of 5,000 - who, in any case, were described as inhabitants of that town.
    The problem is intensified when we read, in some of the early accounts, that during
    the three days that Piccolomini remained with Bogdani in Prizren (before
    Piccolomini died of the plague), it was arranged that the Austrians would be supplied with 20,00 local fighters.
    Count Veterani, the commander of the Austrian campaign in this part of the Balkans in 1690,
    wrote in his memoirs of '20,000 Arnauts reduced to loyal obedience to the Emperor by Piccolomini'.




    So it was not Arsenije Crnojevic III who led a resistance against Ottomans in Kosovo but the Albanian Catholic Pjeter Bogdani.


    Here is some more from Noel:

    As for the fighting men who
    subsequently brought the total
    (at least in theory) to 20,000, some of these may also have
    been inhabitants of Prizren (which
    in 1670 had a population of roughly 50,000)
    but the evidence suggests that others
    were drawn from further afield. Contarini's account
    refers to Piccolomini, on his sickbed in Prizren,
    receiving 'the chiefs of the neighbouring peoples, who came
    to pay tribute to the Emperor with oaths of fealty.
    If, as seems likely, some of these chiefs
    had been summoned by Bogdani, we might expect them
    to have included leaders of Catholic clans in
    the nearby parts of the Malesi; and, indeed,
    an Ottoman document written in February 1690(just three months later)
    does refer to a large group of mostly
    Catholic clans from that area ( including the warlike Fandi)
    who had allied themselves with the Austrians.
    But the pledge of the total of 20,000 may well have included other
    Albanians from areas close to Prizren
    who were no longer Catholic, having
    been converted to Islam within the previous two or three generations-for example,
    the Shulla or Has region, where as Mazrreku reported in 1634,
    there had previously been 50 Catholic parishes
    but were now only five. Mazrreku also noted that the
    conversion to Islam was quite superficial; in 1671
    another report on this area stated that
    '28 years ago there were many Christians[sc.Catholics]: now
    there remain 300 women and very few men, the rest
    having abjured their faith in order to escape impositions and taxes.








    The point here is not that such people nursed
    a burning desire to restore,
    one day, their Catholic identity(this may have been true in some cases,
    those of the crypto-Christians, but these
    seem to have been few in number); rather, it is that
    recent attachment to Islam may not have involved
    anything like religious conviction, and that it is therefore wrong to assume that such
    people would have felt any special duty to support
    the Ottoman state merely because they were Muslims.
    What was going on in the mind of any local person when he or she
    decided to support the Austrians is difficult to reconstruct,
    and impossible to prove; but a modern approach which
    converts religious identities automatically into some sort of equivalent
    of national identities, and then expects blocks of people
    to have behaved along those fixed lines, is unlikely to give us a true picture of seventeenth-century provincial Balkan realities.
    The very small educated elite-the Christian clergy, above all-may have understood what Austria was,
    and what coming under its rule might mean; but ordinary
    people, including clan elders, probably had only haziest idea.
    Their recent experience of Ottoman rule was(contrary to what is implied in Stanford Shaw's account)
    extremely negative. Taxes and other exacations had, as always, risen sharply during the anti-Habsburg war;
    and, what is more, in 1687-9 the beylerbeyi of Rumeli, Yegen Osman
    pasha, had treated the territories under his rule as a personal fiefdom
    to be milked of its riches, and had employed armies
    of personal retaines to plunder it. That
    many local people might have welcomed as an alternative
    a largely unknown power-one that promised to respect
    their local rights, and one that was being
    promoted by a local figure, the Catholic Archbishop,
    whose moral authority extended beyond his own flock-should
    not greatly surprise us. However, when we recognize that such attitudes could cut across
    religious distinctions, this does not mean that we should fall back
    into the categories of most nineteenth- and twentieth-century Serbian
    or Albanian historians, with their axiomatic assumptions about a 'national' identity
    that always strove to throw off Ottoman rule. That
    many Albanians continued to serve in the
    Ottoman forces opposing the Austrians should not surprise us, even though we cannot
    reconstruct the precise combination of factors (economic interest, personal loyalty, local affiliation,
    codes of honour, and so on) that may have been involved.
    Similar considerations may apply to the case of the Slav Orthodox villagers of the Lume region
    South-west of Prizren, whose villages were burnt down by Holstein
    because he regarded them as hostile. One early account
    described Mahmut Begolli's army as consisting of 'Rascians' as well as Albanians;
    some of these 'Rascians' may also have been Orthodox Slavs.



    In the Serbian version of this history, Serbs are depicted as some rebellious people that since the battle of Kosovo 1389 constantly fought to throw off Ottoman rule, while the Albanians were constant Ottoman collaborators. Basically there is no evidence that this was a Serbian revolt , that 30k or 40k refugees left Kosovo or 100,000's or that Arsenije III led a Serbian resistance against the Ottomans.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pjetër_Bogdani
    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1689_Kosovo-Turkish-War

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    Actually I am not even interested in being a nationalist. I am interested in nationalistic myths and the Serbian-Kosovo thing is a nationalistic myth. According to Croatian historian Ivo Banac and British historian Noel Malcolm, Kosovo being central part of Serbian nationalism is a 19th century nationalist invention.

    During Serbian national awakening in the 19th century etc Serbs were claimed as the chosen people, that constantly had fought for 500 years to throw off Ottoman rule, the Albanians were accused all of having been Ottoman collaborators therefore. Albanians were turned into arche enemies. Historical facts were manipulated. The Serbian version of Kosovo has become internationally accepted. You see this repeated all over Western media and by Western Historians, Kosovo is claimed as the cradle of the Serbs where the Serbs had constantly fought to fight off the Ottomans until it was settled by 'Alien' Albanians that murdered and plundered the Serbs. Some of these western historians have adopted the narrative of a ethno-nationalist conflict going back to the ancient period.

    Restoring the former Serb medieval empire became central to Serbian imperialist dreams in the 19th century where Kosovo would serve as a center therefore the Serbian 'Colonization of Kosovo' was seen as justified in what they claimed they were taking back what was rightfully theirs.

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    Kosovo: Albanian Anti-Ottoman revolt (1690)

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Actually I am not even interested in being a nationalist. I am interested in nationalistic myths and the Serbian-Kosovo thing is a nationalistic myth. According to Croatian historian Ivo Banac and British historian Noel Malcolm, Kosovo being central part of Serbian nationalism is a 19th century nationalist invention.

    During Serbian national awakening in the 19th century etc Serbs were claimed as the chosen people, that constantly had fought for 500 years to throw off Ottoman rule, the Albanians were accused all of having been Ottoman collaborators therefore. Albanians were turned into arche enemies. Historical facts were manipulated. The Serbian version of Kosovo has become internationally accepted. You see this repeated all over Western media and by Western Historians, Kosovo is claimed as the cradle of the Serbs where the Serbs had constantly fought to fight off the Ottomans until it was settled by 'Alien' Albanians that murdered and plundered the Serbs. Some of these western historians have adopted the narrative of a ethno-nationalist conflict going back to the ancient period.

    Restoring the former Serb medieval empire became central to Serbian imperialist dreams in the 19th century where Kosovo would serve as a center therefore the Serbian 'Colonization of Kosovo' was seen as justified in what they claimed they were taking back what was rightfully theirs.
    The narrative of being first is completely useless especially for the west. Normally is who is last who has claim and right, and if that claim was established by war is even more substantial.

    Look at US, everybody knows who was first it happened in last 500 years but nobody cares. Instead of playing victim, prepare for war in order to have peace.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The narrative of being first is completely useless especially for the west. Normally is who is last who has claim and right, and if that claim was established by war is even more substantial.

    Look at US, everybody knows who was first it happened in last 500 years but nobody cares. Instead of playing victim, prepare for war in order to have peace.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    I agree. I am just talking about nationalistic myths in general.

    Of course in the Serbian narrative they claim they lived there first but that does not explain the presence of Vlachs and Albanians in Kosova documented by medieval Serbian scriptures themselves.

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    I agree anyway that who lived first or who got there first is all useless. We know Illyrians, Thracians etc lived there as the first Indo-European people. What happened to all the Illyrians and Thracians we don't know.

    My theory is we served the Ottomans when we had too, many Balkan people preferred the Ottomans for personal interests or other things, while others revolted against them when they had the chance to due to heavily taxes and other personal interests. These were not things based on national unity. But in many Balkan nations this is basically the whole narrative, that these are all nationalist conflicts going back to the ancient period.

    19th-20th century some Albanians were pro-Ottoman, others revolted against Ottomans for more rights. There was also a more push for independence. Albanian revolts weakened the Ottoman Empire which allowed for Serbian imperialists to occupy Albanian inhabited lands.

    The Serbs had tried earlier before the Albanian revolt of 1912 to go south into Kosova, Macedonia etc but they were unsuccessful due to resistance from the Ottomans.

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    Kosovo: Albanian Anti-Ottoman revolt (1690)

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    I agree anyway that who lived first or who got there first is all useless. We know Illyrians, Thracians etc lived there as the first Indo-European people. What happened to all the Illyrians and Thracians we don't know.

    My theory is we served the Ottomans when we had too, many Balkan people preferred the Ottomans for personal interests or other things, while others revolted against them when they had the chance to due to heavily taxes and other personal interests. These were not things based on national unity. But in many Balkan nations this is basically the whole narrative, that these are all nationalist conflicts going back to the ancient period.

    19th-20th century some Albanians were pro-Ottoman, others revolted against Ottomans for more rights. There was also a more push for independence. Albanian revolts weakened the Ottoman Empire which allowed for Serbian imperialists to occupy Albanian inhabited lands.

    The Serbs had tried earlier before the Albanian revolt of 1912 to go south into Kosova, Macedonia etc but they were unsuccessful due to resistance from the Ottomans.
    Albanians were ruled by the Ceaser/Kaiser/Car of Constantinople for more that 1000 years. Mehmet took Constantinople and Proclaimed himself Caesar of the Roman Empire (Ottoman Turkish: قیصر‎ روم, romanized: Qayser-i Rûm).
    After initial hard resistance, Over time Albanian recognized his authority. It was a continuation of the same. While Serbian were the first one to be subjugated sending their princess to please the Sultan, similar resistance deserves to be noted and praised.



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    And I am not really playing victim.


    If all these conflicts in the Balkans is some kind of conflict as the result of who lived there first and someone else came there after then how come there was no ethno nationalist conflict when the Slavs came and settled in these lands ? They also settled Albania and many other lands. Albania was under the Serb and Bulgarian empire. So just like Slavs settled in these lands, Vlachs and Albanians had done and did the same.


    How come there was no ethno-nationalist conflict in Kosova in 17th century ? These texts I have provided
    do not speak of any kind of nationalist conflict regarding Kosova in the 17th century between Albanians and Serbs.


    There were also some Albanians and Vlachs mentioned in these lands together with Slavs in the pre-Ottoman period.
    They have been quarreling together with Slavs since Slavs arrived probably. Some people were assimilated and vice versa.
    Regardless of who lived first in what region specifically. Ancient inscription mention 'Albanoi' dating back to the Roman period
    in Skopje for example and in Southern Albania. So if we came from that tribe or not, it shows such movements among Illyrian lands occurred even back then. Kosova and Albania had originally an Illyrian/Thracian population that was closer to Albanians than the Slavs, racially, linguistically and genetically also.


    The demographic growth of Albanians in these areas was a slow proccess over many hundreds of years
    and as a result of high birth rates. Yet in their version they claim there was a sudden mass settlement of Albanians who are depicted as Ottoman transplants, the Serbs are depicted as rebellious people that constantly fought off the Ottomans. And this is all depicted as a ethno-nationalist conflict going back to the early Ottoman period supposedly ? But when one looks at the historical evidence it's all rubbish. They seem to mainly be the product of 19th-20th century nationalism. Regardless of
    who lived first there.


    This version of history, which has been accepted by the Western world, is an extremely racist version that depicts Albanophobia etc. Depicts Kosova as some kind of permanent Serbian territory. Despite it was a battle ground of various empires. Albanian principalities like Dukagjin, Kastriot operated around these mountains.




    How do you explain the movement of Vlachs into Greece such as the Aromanians for example ? How do you explain
    the origin of the Romanian language and the presence of Vlachs in Kosova, Herzegovina, Montenegro etc ? The presence of Vlachs in Western Bulgaria also and in South/Eastern Serbia.




    The Serbian narrative that supposedly ''Albanians started coming there and it all started conflict'' is completely rubbish even if movements from Northern Albania did speed up in the 18th century, they were actually slow process and not sudden huge populations filling up vacuums. And as shown by this thread, there was already a large Albanian population. And there were Slavs from Montenegro that also came there. In one version they claim huge population movement happened in the early Ottoman period, yet absolutely no evidence.


    Movements and battles in these lands have been occurring since the ancient period. It does not make sense because demographic went against the favor of the Slavs in some of these areas that this supposedly triggered ethno-nationalist conflicts. One could say the same thing when the Slavs came to the Balkans with that logic. In fact, many of these conflicts in the Balkans are started by Balkan Slavs and their imperialism and are the result of 19th-20th century nationalism. They cannot take that demographics went against their favor so with historical falsifcation, false accusations and myths they started an ethnic conflict in lands where Albanians had lived for hundreds of years, and if we go back to Illyrian period it's possible it contained an Illyro-Albanian population.




    Which means like you said, let's prepare for war, because at the end of the day it does not matter!


    Lets also not forget the Serbs came into the Balkans thanks to hundreds of years of Roman occupation which eventually destroyed Illyria and allowed for the Slavs to settle. So Albanians as native Balkan people, would of lived in these lands first regardless. We would be quarreling with some related tribes.

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