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Thread: Kosovo: Albanian Anti-Ottoman revolt (1690)

  1. #76
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    I actually added sources and even pages but since they removed it I added it back again but I couldn't bother finding all the sources again and pages , but it's added back on, please contribute . I am waiting for a single evidence to show me Arsenije Crnojevic led a revolt against Ottomans or an exodus of Serbs from Western Kosova that had majority Albanian population.
    It's all pretty much based on one single text where the Serbs claim ''Patriarch of Clemente'' refers supposedly to Arsenije when it seems to refer to the same person 'Archbishop of Albania' Pjeter Bogdani and Catholic Albanian Toma Raspasani


    We also don't know much about the whole Dukagjini thing which has been added on the wiki page but it's not that important. We know they operated around the mountains there and we know the name for 'Western Kosovo' in Albanian: Rrafshi i Dukagjinit' comes from that family.

    I added regarding the battle of Kosovo 1389 this text from John Musachi from 1515:

    Passing through all these countries, he occupied much land, among which was the city of Adrianopole (Edirne). When Murad the Second (5) took power, he seized Serbia and Bulgaria in a huge onslaught. Lazar (6), the Despot of Serbia, and King Marko of Bulgaria and Theodore Musachi, the second-born of our family, and the other Lords of Albania united and set off for battle, which the Christians lost (7). It was there that the above mentioned Theodore, who had a large band of Albanians with him, was slain. The said Lazar of Serbia was taken prisoner and later slain.

    But of course they removed that because there were of course no Albanians there


    Another point is how they claim oppression of Orthodox people when the revolts were largely organised by Catholic Albanians who were actually the most oppressed after the revolt. Muslims also revolted as many Pashas abused their powers against them.

    They claim 500 years of oppresion on Orthodox people supposedly but Muslims and Catholics lived in a fairytale .... When literally Slavs were settling the area throughout the entire Ottoman period and had it not been for the Expulsion of Albanians from more north it would of had a large Slavic Orthodox population on the Eastern part still.

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    Here some more interesting stuff:

    Lazaro Soranzo, in the late 1500's , wrote of Albanians who live as Catholics and observed that Prizren was more inhabited by Albanians than Serbs
    And what I added earlier:

    The Ottoman officials noted which heads of families were new arrivals in their places of residence; in the Sanjak of Prizren in 1591 only five new arrivals out of forty-one bore Albanian names. In the nahiye of Pec in 1485, majority of new arrivals had Slavic names. In several Kosovo towns in the 1580s and 1590s; twenty five new Albanian immigrants were recorded and 133 immigrants with Slav names, several of them described coming from Bosnia
    ''Mass immigration from Northern Albania''

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    In 1689 during the Austrian-Ottoman wars, the Albanian Catholic Pjeter Bogdani organized a pro-Austrian movement and a resistance against the Ottomans in Kosovo that included both Muslims and Christians.[66] The Austrians went to Prizren where they met the Catholic Albanian archbishop Pjeter Bogdani[67]. An original document refers to the Austrians being greeted by 5,000 Albanians who were partly Christian and partly Muslim.[68] Count Veterani wrote of 20,000 Arnauts i.e Albanians having joined the Austrians.[69]. An Italian manuscript states there stood 6,000 and more Albanians in Prizren[70]

    .........................

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Yeah, ‘loyal servants’ lol


    Most of these ‘historians’ haven’t even done the most basic research. Or, perhaps they are incentivized to write such rubbish.

    For example, as an amateur observer, just by studying the tax system of that period in the region one can see who was that Ottomans mostly preferred in their lands as Raja. Albanian Catholic families in Kosove paid three times more tax than your typical Serbian Raja family. The local Pashas, who were mostly of Albanian extraction, most definitely preferred Serbians to live and work their lands. Or else we wouldn’t see such a disparity in the tax policy.

    Such aggressive policies is also what drove Christian Albanians to mass conversion, me thinks. Especially in Kosove.
    You are absolutely right.

    It's interesting because according to a source from late 1500's quoted by Noel Malcolm, Prizren was an Albanian Catholic town. Then in 1624 it became Muslim.

    Lazaro Soranzo, in the late sixteenth century, writing of 'Albanians, who live as Catholics, and observing that Prizren was inhabited ' more by Albanians than by Serbs')

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    The Serb version of history regarding this event is just a false version of history, that ironically has become very famous and even repeated by these so called ''historians'', but it's not even what the texts or letters from these times say. The Albanian version is also exaggerated but totally unknown to the world. If you go to Noel Malcolm's book he explains all the versions in the Chapter ''History'' .

    In the Serbian version they claim they were the majority until 1690, led a war against Ottomans, Albanians were just mountain herders that stood aside, then Serbs were pushed out and Albanians mass migrated suddenly either at the hands of Ottomans or forcibly settled. This theory was invented by Serb writers and completely false history that is being repeated to this day as a fact.

    The Serbian writer that did this basically changed all the people that led the revolt and were mentioned as Albanian into Serbs, then he added the Albanians as Ottoman collaborators or people that were settled there by the Ottomans. He added Arsenije Crnojevic as the main character instead of Pjeter Bogdani or ''Archbishop of Albania'' . Nowhere in some of the texts I have seen do they ever mention Arsenije Crnojevic, these texts are clearly referring to Pjeter Bogdani. One can also just look at letters these people wrote, where they were, who they met, where they went.

    These little chetniks stole our history and made our people look like Ottoman transplants and themselves like some glorious people that fought the Ottomans

    This is was actually an Albanian led revolt organized by Pjeter Bogdani and Toma Raspasani but these Chetniks stole our history, changed all the people into Serbs and added the chicken Arsenije Crnojevic as the main character


    Some falsification of history that has become famous

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    The setting is this: the year is 1689, the month of October and we are located in Prizren.
    The word is out that General Enea Silvio Piccolomini, who served in the Habsburg army, after burning down Shkup (Skopje) is heading towards Prizren.
    Serbian history claims that Piccolomini was welcomed in Prizren by Patriarch Arsenije III Crnojevic and his 20.000 Serbian insurgents who sided with the Austrians in the fight against the Ottomans.
    In 1690 the same sources tell us that this was the year when the Great Migration of Serbs from Kosovo to Hungary happened and it is widely known as ‘Velika Seoba’
    Noel Malcolm in his ‘Rebels, Believers, Survivors. – Studies in the History of the Albanians’ deconstructs the 20.000 Serbian insurgents. I will try to put forward some of the impending evidence that can be found in his book.
    In Camillo Contarini’s (Istoria Della Guerra) words: ‘Near Prizren, as Piccolomini was approaching, the inhabitants came out to meet him with festive shouts: they were 5.000 in number and were led by their Archbishop, holding a banner with an image of the Holy Cross.’
    We must say that the Archbishop mentioned here is the Catholic Archbishop Pjetër Bogdani and not Arsenije, the Serbian Patriarch.
    There is clear evidence that Arsenije was in Montenegro at this time as he was in contact with Venetian authorities and didn’t return to Kosovo until December 1689.
    But where does the number 20.000 come from? Well, Prizren was considered a large town at that time. Earlier that century, in 1624 Pjetër Mazrreku reported that Prizren had roughly 200 Catholic inhabitants, 600 ‘Serviani’ and 12.000 ‘Turchi, quasi tutti Albanesi.’
    In 1670, as reported by Pjetër Bogdani in 1681, Prizren had 10.000 households and the number of the population was estimated to be around 50.000. It is easy to conclude that the 20.000 fighting men were mostly from the Prizren area.
    In an intercepted letter written by a secretary of the English Embassy in Istanbul on January 19th, 1690, reports that the ‘Germans’ in Kosovo ‘have made contact with 20.000 Albanians (“Albanois”), who turned their weapons against the Turks.’
    The letter is found among the papers of Ludwig von Baden in Karlsruhe.
    And, as for the Serbian historians who clearly lied about the composition of 20.000, they have the audacity to go on and portray Albanians as traitors who, despite the promise of assistance, left the Austrian army at the last moment before the battle of Kaçanik in early 1690.
    Serbs retreated north and Albanians flowed in like a destructive river and thanks to their fantastic powers of reproduction became a dangerous threat to the biological survival of the Serbs in Kosovo.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/albania/com...ivors_prizren/

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Look at the register of 16th century (1571). Muslims in the rural regions were still rare. This changes however drastically after the Bogdani campaign. But yeah, Vushtrri, Prizren, Peje and Prishtine were the centres that were pred Muslim from the early days. Most of the city dwellers later on also considering themselves to be Turks too.

    Sure, this is also the time when animosities rise between Albanians and Serb communities in Kosove - after the Serbian atrocities in South-Eastern Serbia. Prior to that there were conflicts, but mostly local isolated incidents.

    True. It seems like many tribes in Northern Albania in 17th century before and during the Austrian-Ottoman wars like Gashi, Krasniqi etc were still Catholic also. Seem to of been widespread attrocities on Catholics.

    But from the defter of 1571 to 1690 there seem to of also been quite some conversions according to Mazrreku due to high taxes and impositions on Catholics but even Muslims, many whom were freshly converted, opposed the Ottomans during the Austrian-Ottoman wars.

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    Anyway, after Austrian-Ottoman wars reprisals were heavily on Catholics who had led a pro-Austrian movement. Northern Albania seems to of been largely Catholic before 1690 and supported the Austrians. Also rural areas of Kosove Orthodox and Catholic like you said. Mostly bigger towns had been converted in Kosove. Certainly does not match what some of these ''historians'' claim. It is embarrassing when even amateurs debunk them

    Something I found regarding the Berisha tribe:

    Throughout Kosovo numerous microtoponyms can be found during the 14th century such as:Berishin Dol,Berishtar,Berishofc,Berishtani,Berishane and Berishiç.[19] In 1348, Emperor Stefan Dušan mentions "Berisha's Field" as being near Mushtisht in Kosovo.[20]

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    When it comes to the fis name/patronym Berishe and those toponyms I would be more cautious. Reason being is because patronyms like Berivoj, Berislav, Beridrag etc which share the root ‘Beri’ were very common patronyms among Slavs of that era, especially Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    When it comes to the fis name/patronym Berishe and those toponyms I would be more cautious. Reason being is because patronyms like Berivoj, Berislav, Beridrag etc which share the root ‘Beri’ were very common patronyms among Slavs of that era, especially Serbs.
    True (Although they don't seem to be the same but I agree, one should look further into it.. As some Albanians can exaggerate IMO just like Slavs exaggerate)

    What do you think about the last one ''Berisha's Field'' , apparently it's quoted from a book from Milan Sufflay and some others but it's in French, Latin or whatever

    https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bp...tem.texteImage

    You need to click the arrows on the lower middle of the screen to scroll to the next page . Apparently it's on page 12.

    There was one Albanian guy who said his ancestors are from Berisha tribe and in Kosova they used to be Orthodox.

    Berisha is also apprently mentioned in 13th century in Ulqin, Montenegro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    You are absolutely right.

    It's interesting because according to a source from late 1500's quoted by Noel Malcolm, Prizren was an Albanian Catholic town. Then in 1624 it became Muslim.
    Even the surrounding region was pred Albanian, not just the city. Look at the register of 1452/53 (Vilajet of Pashtrik), Alb names like Progon, Gjin, Tanush, Gjon, Lesh etc are everywhere. Only Gore stands out, not surprising at all considering it’s the only enclave in that region that still speak a Slavic dialect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    True (Although they don't seem to be the same but I agree, one should look further into it.. As some Albanians can exaggerate IMO just like Slavs exaggerate)

    What do you think about the last one ''Berisha's Field'' , apparently it's quoted from a book from Milan Sufflay and some others but it's in French, Latin or whatever

    https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bp...tem.texteImage

    You need to click the arrows on the lower middle of the screen to scroll to the next page . Apparently it's on page 12.

    There was one Albanian guy who said his ancestors are from Berisha tribe and in Kosova they used to be Orthodox.

    Berisha is also apprently mentioned in 13th century in Ulqin, Montenegro.
    Not sure honestly hence why I mentioned we should be cautious. I am not a linguist so can’t really dwell much deeper into it. However we shouldn’t overlook the similarities between Berishe and the patronyms I brought up.

    Where was he from? Possibilities are that they could have converted to Orothodoxy for a period or were Orthodox locals that adopted the fis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Not sure honestly hence why I mentioned we should be cautious. I am not a linguist so can’t really dwell much deeper into it. However we shouldn’t overlook the similarities between Berishe and the patronyms I brought up.

    Where was he from? Possibilities are that they could have converted to Orothodoxy for a period or were Orthodox locals that adopted the fis.
    I don't quite know but he says he is from Berisha e Kuqe and that they used to live there before the Ottoman period and were Orthodox.
    But we know there were also significant Albanian Catholics there which is what I think did not lead to assimilation of the Orthodox Albanian population there into the Slav. Some Orthodox Albanians on the Eastern part that predated the Ottoman conquest with mix Albanian-Slav names and some Orthodox Albanians in Western Kosova where there was a significant Catholic population.
    Last edited by 1337; 07-08-22 at 10:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Even the surrounding region was pred Albanian, not just the city. Look at the register of 1452/53 (Vilajet of Pashtrik), Alb names like Progon, Gjin, Tanush, Gjon, Lesh etc are everywhere. Only Gore stands out, not surprising at all considering it’s the only enclave in that region that still speak a Slavic dialect.
    You know where I can find that ? Anyway it makes a lot of sense since by the year 1557 Kosova had quite a significant Albanian population. And by 1660's Western and parts of Central Kosova seem to of been Albanian. Opoja and Prizren are some of the areas that I know were majority Albanian the earliest.

    Also large groups of Vlachs were recorded in some tax paying registers in 1480's. Peja seems to of been Muslim by 1557 (But don't quote me on that I could be wrong)
    Last edited by 1337; 07-08-22 at 02:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    You know where I can find that ? Anyway it makes a lot of sense since by the year 1557 Kosova had quite a significant Albanian population. And by 1660's Western and parts of Central Kosova seem to of been Albanian. Opoja and Prizren are some of the areas that I know were majority Albanian the earliest.

    Also large groups of Vlachs were recorded in some tax paying registers in 1480's. Peja seems to of been Muslim by 1557 (But don't quote me on that I could be wrong)
    I have Tatjana Katic’s publication. Can’t remember now where I got it, maybe from poreklo.rs.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    I don't quite know but he says he is from Berisha e Kuqe and that they used to live there before the Ottoman period and were Orthodox.
    But we know there were also significant Albanian Catholics there which is what I think did not lead to assimilation of the Orthodox Albanian population there into the Slav. Some Orthodox Albanians on the Eastern part that predated the Ottoman conquest with mix Albanian-Slav names and some Orthodox Albanians in Western Kosova where there was a significant Catholic population.
    No family in Kosove can go back that far and remember that they predate Ottomans in a specific settlement, Serb or Albanian. Many Serbs tend to believe that but actually if you just look at the ethnographic literature from the 19th and 20th centuries you will see that they moved constantly. If you go a bit further in time, Ottoman pashas moved their Raja like cattle from settlement to settlement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    I have Tatjana Katic’s publication. Can’t remember now where I got it, maybe from poreklo.rs.
    I heard that name before. I think I found something now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    No family in Kosove can go back that far and remember that they predate Ottomans in a specific settlement, Serb or Albanian. Many Serbs tend to believe that but actually if you just look at the ethnographic literature from the 19th and 20th centuries you will see that they moved constantly. If you go a bit further in time, Ottoman pashas moved their Raja like cattle from settlement to settlement.
    I can go back only few hundred years maybe.

    I know Noel Malcolm mentioned a study on Eastern Kosovo done by a Serb which showed this but there was no study on Western Kosovo (Rrafshi i Dukagjinit)

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    Anyway some more interesting Albanian history I found that is unknown

    Mahmut Bushati, an Albanian lord who held much of Kosovo and parts of Montenego and Albania in the 1700's.

    in 1785 he conquered parts of Southern Albania and much of Kosovo too.
    Modelling himself (it was said) on Skanderbeg, he set up a 'Confederation of Illyria',
    based in Montenegro and called on both Slavs and Albanians
    - Kosovo: A Short History

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Mahmud_Pasha


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    Thirdly, the idea that a fixed
    but gradually eroded Serb population
    was swamped by a tide of Albanian
    immigration is misleadingly schematic.
    There was flux and emigration, settlement and resettlement,
    in all sectors of the population.
    Waves of Orthodox people also migrated
    into Kosovo: the forced migration of one body of
    Vasojevic clansmen has already been mentioned,
    and a large group of Orthodox Vlachs, most of
    whom would eventually be assimilated into the Serbian
    Orthodox population, came in the 1770s.
    Just as Catholic Albanian highlanders moved into Kosovo
    from the Malesi, so Orthodox Slav ones
    from the mountains of Montenegro
    moved into Sandzak of Novi Pazar; from there,
    many also spread into northern Kosovo.
    Members of all the Montenegrin clans took part
    in this population drift, though they tended
    to be lumped together under the clan-name 'Vasojevic'.


    One French taveller in Kosovo
    noted in 1911 that some parts of northern Kosovo
    which had lost their Serbs in the eighteenth century had
    regained a Slav population not long afterwards: villages
    near Vucitern which had been entirely 'Albanianized'
    up to 100 or eighty years ago, he wrote, had then become
    completely repopulated by Slavs.


    Orthodox people moved to Kosovo not only from Montenegro
    but from all the other surrounding areas too.
    In the 1930s a Serb researcher took down details of the
    oral family traditions of all the households in
    several areas of Eastern Kosovo. He recorded
    that only a small proportion of Serb families had been living in the same place for 200 years
    or more.

    - Kosovo: A Short History

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    It was nineteenth-century Serbian ideology that created a cult of the medieval battle of Kosovo as some sort of nationally-defining historical and spiritual event. It was the political role plaved by protector-powers such as Russia, with their consuls in Prishtina or Mitrovica, that helped to create a new atmosphere of suspicion and hostility on the part of the local Albanians; Ottoman policy in the Crimean War, and the later transplanting of fiercely anti-Russian (and generally anti-Orthodox) Circassians into Kosovo also played an important part in souring Albanian-Serb relations. It was the mass-expulsion of Albanians and other Muslims from the areas conquered by Serbia and Montenegro in 1877-8 that persuaded the Albanians in Kosovo that Serbia — and the Serbs of Kosovo who were claimed as an ‘unredeemed’ part of the Serbian population — represented a threat to their existence. And, above all, it was the policies imposed from above by the Serbian and Montenegrin governments from the first moment of their conquest of Kosovo in 1912 that created systematic hostility and hatred on a scale that the region had never seen before.

    - Kosovo: A Short History

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    This period also saw a deterioration in relations between the Muslims and Christians of Kosovo. The prime cause of this was the mass expulsion of Muslims from the lands taken over by Serbia, Bulgaria and Monte- negro in 1877-8. Almost all the Muslims (except, as we have seen, some Gypsies) were expelled from the Morava valley region: there had been hundreds of Albanian villages there, and significant Albanian populations in towns such as Prokuplje, Leskovac and Vranje. A Serbian schoolmaster in Leskovac later recalled that the Muslims had been driven out in December 1877 at a time of intense cold: “By the roadside, in the Gudelica gorge and as far as Vranje and Kumanovo, you could see the abandoned corpses of children, and old men frozen to death.’ Precise figures are lacking, but one modern study concludes that the whole region contained more than 110,000 Albanians. By the end of 1878 Western officials were reporting that there were 60,000 families of Muslim refugees in Macedonia, ‘in a state of extreme destitution’, and 60—70,000 Albanian refugees from Serbia ‘scattered’ over the vilayet of Kosovo. Albanian merchants who tried to stay on in Nis were subjected to a campaign of murders, and the property of those who left was sold off at one per cent of its value. In a petition of 1879 a group of Albanian refugees from the Leskovac area complained that their houses, mills, mosques and tekkes had all been demolished, and that ‘The material arising from these demolitions, such as masonry and wood, has been sold, so that if we go back to our hearths we shall find no shelter.

    - Kosovo: A Short History . page 228

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    I have Tatjana Katic’s publication. Can’t remember now where I got it, maybe from poreklo.rs.
    Is it possible to PM it to me ? Just wanna study it. Can't understand Serbo-Croat-Chetnik language.

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    Actually I found it now

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    It's very difficult to explain it briefly because there is a long history behind it, and a lot of myths and historical falsification.
    20th century thinking of the Serbs is what matters. It is influenced not only by the 14th century events, but by many other events, too. In the last two centuries, Serbs became a pet nation of some Western intellectuals and nations. Romanticist linguists from Central Europe propagated the idea that whoever speaks Serb-Croatian is a Serb. In the twentieth century, some powers wanted to create a Greater Serbia. Russia did it not out of Orthodox solidarity but out of the desire to have access to Mediterranean ports, while France and Britain saw in a Greater Serbia a bulwark against Austrian and German influence. The three prevailed in giving Kosovo to Serbia in 1913. If it had been made a part of Albania, as Austria and Italy insisted, we would have no Kosovo problem today.
    The Turks' atrocities were no worse than atrocities of other nations at the time. In fact, according to a Serb Janissary, who wrote a book very popular in the 16th and 17th century, 'Memoirs of Janissary,' written for the Polish king, there was more justice under the Turks at his time than in Serbia preceding the Turkish conquest. Ottoman Turks, like the Habsburgs, were good empire builders, and knew that prolonged rule cannot be achieved through terror. It was only in the last centuries of the Ottoman Empire, when economy deteriorated and with it the Turks' ability to maintain order, that Turkish rule became oppressive.
    http://edition.cnn.com/chat/transcri...imir_chat.html

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