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Thread: Kosovo: Albanian Anti-Ottoman revolt (1690)

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    Kosovo: Albanian Anti-Ottoman revolt (1690)

    Claimed by Serbs as a Serbian revolt yet when looking at sources from 1690 the people that revolted were mostly mentioned as Albanian.

    One early account states that in Prishtina 5,000 Arnauts, having thrown off the Turks and many leaders of the surrounding places ... swore fealty to the Emperor.



    Count Veterani, the commander of the Austrian campaign in this part of the Balkans in 1690, wrote in his memoirs of 20,000 Arnauts reduced to loyal obedience to the Emperor Piccolomini



    An anonymous history of the war, written in Italian (and surviving in manuscript in two forms: the full Italian text in the French Foreign Ministry archives, and an extract in German translation, entitled 'Annotationes und Reflexiones, in the Kriegsarchiv in Vienna), refers to more than 20,000 Rascians or Albanians. Some other early texts by writers who apparently had acces to original dispatches and documents specify Albanians: for example Franz Wagner, in his history of the region of Leopold I, used the words 'Arnautae' and 'Epirotae' - the latter being a term normally used to distinguish the Albanian language (and its speakers) from the Slav, ''Illyrian'', one.



    And one of Piccolominis own officers, Colonel von Strasser, reported to Ludwig von Baden that Piccolomini had gone to Prizren in order to treat with 'The Albanians, Arnauts, and others (mit den Albanesernen, Arnauten und anderen')



    Among the papers of Ludwig von Baden in Karlsruhe, there is a copy of an intercepted letter, in French, written by a secretary of the English Embassy in Istanbul on 19 January 1690: it reports that the 'Germans' in Kosovo have made contact with 20,000 Albanians who have turned their weapons against the Turks.



    Most of this evidence points then towards the conclusion that the bulk of the people who rallied to Piccolomini in Prizren - both the 5,000 who came to the town to greet him, and the others who made up the total of 20,000 - were, by our modern criteria, Albanian



    Source: Rebels, Believers, Survivors: Studies in the History of Albanians. , starting from page 128 .

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    It is claimed after this revolt, they were replaced by Albanians, repeated later even among Western Historians and writers (Tim Judah, Mirana Vickers and various others in their books about Kosovo), some historians such as the source in the OP claim this never happened:

    This essay examines both the historical facts concerning the migration of Serbs from Kosovo in 1690, and the claims made about that migration by subsequent historians—claims which, at their most extreme, suggested that hundreds of thousands of Serbs departed, with huge effects on the ethnic composition of the region. This essay demonstrates that there was no large-scale organized exodus of Serbs under the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch, Arsenije Crnojević: his departure from Kosovo in early 1690 was extremely hasty, and he had not, in any case, been leading organized resistance to the Ottomans. A large number of Serbs did move with the Patriarch to Hungarian territory later in that year; he himself gave their numbers as 30,000 or 40,000. But they had gathered, from many areas, in the Belgrade region, and only a small proportion were from Kosovo itself. One unsupported claim was made many years later, by a Serbian monk, that the Patriarch had brought 37,000 families to Hungary; and in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries many Serb writers interpreted that figure maximally, while also assuming that all those people had come from Kosovo. This essay analyses the ideological influences (operating primarily on Serbs within the Habsburg territories in the nineteenth century) that helped to shape that interpretation; it also criticizes excessive claims made by modern Albanian and Turkish historians.



    The guy who led an Anti-Ottoman resistance was not the Serbian Orthodox Arsenije as claimed in Serbian history but the Albanian Catholic Bogdani.


    The Austrian historian, Johann Georg Von Hahn, mentioned an Albanian revolt in 1689



    An interesting fact emerges from these historical events – that in 1689 Dardania had a plentiful and warrior Albanian population, because it is highly unlikely in my view that the Albanians mentioned here came over from Albania itself to join Imperial forces. The question as to whether these Albanians were Christians or Muslims is not answered in the above-mentioned work. An edition of source material about the Dardanian campaign of Imperial troops would provide a substantial contribution to our knowledge of this region and its inhabitants and would also be of great interest for our military history because names like Starhemberg and Veterani appear in it. No one would be better suited for this than the biographer of the former.



    Source: Travels in Dardanian Albania.

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    Tim Judah, in his book about Kosovo, claims the demographics started changing into Albanian only after this ''Serbian'' revolt, yet the Turkish traveler Evlyia Celebi (in his work in 1662, 30 years before these events) traveling Kosovo described Western/Central Kosovo as inhabited by Albanians:

    The seventeenth-century Ottoman notable arid author Evliya Çelebi, who wrote a massive account of his travels around the empire and abroad, included in it details of local society that normally would not appear in official correspondence; for this reason, his account of a visit to several towns in Kosovo in 1660 is extremely valuable. Evliya confirms that western and at least parts of central Kosovo were ‘Arnavud’. He notes that the town of Vučitrn had few speakers of ‘Boşnakca’; its inhabitants spoke Albanian or Turkish. He terms the highlands around Tetovo (in Macedonia), Peć, and Prizren the ‘mountains of Arnavudluk’. Elsewhere, he states that ‘the mountains of Peć’ lay in Arnavudluk, from which issued one of the rivers converging at Mitrovica, just north-west of which he sites Kosovo’s border with Bosna. This river, the Ibar, flows from a source in the mountains of Montenegro north-north-west of Peć, in the region of Rozaje to which the Këlmendi would later be moved. He names the other river running by Mitrovica as the Kılab and says that it, too, had its source in Aravudluk; by this, he apparently meant the Lab, which today is the name of the river descending from mountains north—east of Mitrovica to join the Sitnica north of Priština. As Evliya travelled south, he appears to have named the entire stretch of river he was following the Kılab, not noting the change of name when he took the right fork at the confluence of the Lab and Sitnica. Thus, Evliya states that the tomb of Murad I, killed in the battle of Kosovo Polje, stood beside the Kılab, although it stands near the Sitnica outside Priština. Despite the confusion of names, Evliya included in Arnavudluk not only the western fringe of Kosovo, but also the central mountains from which the Sitnica (‘Kılab’) and its first tributaries descend
    Anscombe, Frederic F, (2006). "The Ottoman Empire in Recent International Politics – II: The Case of Kosovo". The International History Review. 28.(4): 767–774, 785–788.

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    Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing!
    No problem! Obviously some serious falsification of history and false accusations. In his book about Kosovo Tim Judah claims Albanians after 1690 were supposedly mass settled from Northern Albania and into the plains by the Ottomans as loyal Ottoman servants and given special rights. This all apparently happened after the so called ''Serbian revolt''

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    Something I found on wiki regarding the mines of Novo Brdo

    Ragusan documents attest to the presence of a significant number of Albanians living in Novo Brdo throughout the 14th and early 15th centuries, including members of the Catholic Albanian clergy with names such as Gjergjash and Gjinko, Gjini, son of Gjergji, the presbyter (1382); the reverend Gjergj Gega, Nikollë Tanushi, Gjergj Andrea Pellini and Nikolla Progonovic. In the book of debtors belonging to Ragusan merchant Mihail Lukarevic, who resided in Novobërda during the 1430s, 150 Albanian household heads were mentioned as living in Novo Brdo with their families. They worked as miners, artisans and specialists in the mines of Novo Brdo. The anthroponomy of these figures is characteristically Albanian; distinctive Albanian names such as Gjon, Gjin, Tanush, Progon, Lek, Gjergj and Bibë are mentioned

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    I will probably post more from the book in the OP but if you wanna read the chapter regarding this you can get it for free here, page 128

    https://books.google.com/books?id=oe...page&q&f=false


    Starts by telling the Serbian version, Albanian version, some Western version etc and then uses actual sources from the events of 1690 .

    Talks about ''The Great Migration of Serbs''

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    Here is some more text from Kosovo from 1689-90 that shows the people that revolted were Albanians http://www.albanianhistory.net/1689_Kosovo-Turkish-War/ , it also mentions Prizren in Kosovo as capital of Albania. It mentions
    some Serbs joining the revolt too, both on Austrian, Albanian and Turkish side as well as some Albanians joining Ottoman forces, though other texts specify the 20,000 people as Albanians and the 6,000 as Albanians in this text. Some other texts in this link specify 300 Serbs joining the revolt and around 1,200 Serbs and it specifies Serbs revolting with Albanians.

    I have only quoted some that mention Albanians joining Austrian side. It mentions 20,000 Albanians. It talks about Austrian forces mistreating Albanians (and Serbs)

    1689
    Kosovo in the Great Turkish War
    of 1683-1699



    “Notes and Reflections on the Glorious Arms of Imperial Forces in 1689” is an anonymous German-language manuscript preserved at the Military Archives (Kriegsarchiv) in Vienna, Austria, which is itself the translation of a longer work in Italian entitled “Origine della guerra fra l’Imperatore dei Christiani, e quello de Turchi l’anno 1682”. It focuses, among other things, on the Imperial Austrian offensive against Ottoman forces in Kosovo, Macedonia and northern Albania during the Great Turkish War of 1683-1699. The manuscript is of particular Albanian interest as it describes the organised presence of the Albanians and their military forces in seventeenth-century Kosovo. Also of interest is the reference to the Albanian archbishop Pjetër Bogdani and his death in Prizren. The Albanians are mentioned in this manuscript as Albanese and Arnauts, the former term referring no doubt more to Catholics and later more to Muslims, and the Serbs are referred to as Rascians. Manuscript folio numbers and modern place names, where found, have been added here in square brackets for the convenience of the reader.
    The reputation of this commander grew more and more because of his orderliness such that 5,000 Arnauts [Muslim Albanians] in Pristina [Prishtina] who had risen against the Turks and [the inhabitants of] many of the major towns in the vicinity had given to understand that they would submit to the rule of the Emperor. Thus, when he arrived in Pristina, they swore allegiance to the Emperor and at that moment, this large tract of territory came under the shadow of the laurels of His Imperial Majesty.
    For his part, he continued his march and arrived on the 6th, as reported earlier, in Prisiran [Prizren], the Capital of Albania, where he was welcomed by the Archbishop (5) [36r] of that country and by the Patriarch of Clementa with their various religious ceremonies.
    Outside of Priserin [Prizren] there were at least 6,000 Albanese [Albanian] troops as well as others who had formerly been in the pay of the Turks and who are known as Arnauts. When German troops marched by, they gave off three volleys of fire as a sign of their pleasure and then swore an oath of allegiance to the Emperor according to their custom. Piccolomini thus had over 20,000 Rascians and Albanese under his orders, all men of martial temperament, who were willing to undertake any endeavour, however great it should be, in accordance with the will of the General.
    Thereafter, on the 13th of November, the Arnauts and many Rascian infantrymen, 1,000 men in all, and 100 German cavalrymen under the orders of Herr Sanoski, a captain from Piccolomini’s regiment, were attacked two miles from Prisserin [Prizren] by a force of 1,500 Turks coming in the direction of Skopje
    When the Duke of Holstein got word of their presence, he gathered his regiment, that of Prince Carl of Hanover, (6) Seran, Piccolomini and the Hussars of Csaky and many Rascians and Arnauts, since they had been provided with ammunition and food for several days, and set off on the 24th of November for Orisovia [Orizari?]. Marching swiftly, he arrived near Stipo on the 27th in the early hours of the morning, where he encountered not only the aforementioned 3,000 infidels of Mahmut Pasha, former commander of Scopia, but a further 3,000 Muslims. There were therefore 6,000 of them, mostly cavalry, as well as 80 Janissaries and many Arnauts.
    The Germans were joined by almost 1,500 fighters, both Rascians and Arnauts, such that the whole army that was mustered in Pristina on 1 January 1690 was 3,500 strong.

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    His Imperial Majesty discovered that of the 20,000 Arnauts who under Piccolomini’s influence had sworn allegiance to the Emperor, only 300 remained to be relied on, because they had been so badly treated by His Grace and the other officers. Had the Duke not changed his mind when he realised the mistake, he would not have had a single one of them under his command. Even though the remaining men were marching among our Imperial forces, in their hearts they were unwilling.
    Whoever thinks he can subject great countries with harshness, discipline and modest forces is making a mistake. One can achieve much with an average army, but only by following the rules and taking council when mistakes are made.
    Holstein initially dismissed these peoples as superfluous and considered them as competition and an impediment to the interests of His Imperial Majesty. Having been persuaded by several leaders that all of these subjected peoples and those who had sworn allegiance, [43r] should pay tribute and should not bear any arms, he believed that a small force would be sufficient to keep an entire kingdom under control.
    Only then did he come to understand the means necessary to keep these conquered lands quiet and to incite them constantly against the Turks. When they had replenished their earlier militia, they decided to attack the quarters of the Austrians and, egged on by the Arnauts who had been badly treated by our men, returned to their earlier allegiance to the Muslims.
    Coming back to Strasser, he believed that he could do wonders with his haughty corps and could drive the enemy back to Sophia. By nature he was a violent man and not particularly polite. He was wont to exchange insults with the officers, both Germans and Rascian, that disgusted our men. Even Prince Carl more than once regretted having him under his command.
    Since Strasser was in essence a soldier, though somewhat too strict, he wanted to provoke the barbarians into doing battle with him. He therefore made the first move, trusting that his men, who in fact did not like him, would not abandon him.
    [44v] When the troops had marched for four hours, they arrived at a pass, less than a mile from Caccianek [Kaçanik] which they discovered that the Turks had taken. The Colonel camped there and, when he set off at 2 o’clock in the morning, he was advised by a lieutenant colonel of the Arnauts not to advance any further because Turkish forces were too great. However, he made fun of the man and called him a potron [kitten?]. At this, the Albanian exchanged some further words. Enraged, Strasser drew his pistol and shot the fellow in the arm, wounding him severely. He also went even further and had one of the other soldiers, from amongst the Albanians, executed for some minor offence
    The faithless Arnauts maintained contacts with our men. They had abandoned our side because of the bad treatment they had received from the Colonel and because Strasser had sentenced one of their comrades to death. They made it clear that, should the Germans actually attack, they would go over to the Ottoman side and assist in the total defeat of Imperial forces.
    .................................................. ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    No problem! Obviously some serious falsification of history and false accusations. In his book about Kosovo Tim Judah claims Albanians after 1690 were supposedly mass settled from Northern Albania and into the plains by the Ottomans as loyal Ottoman servants and given special rights. This all apparently happened after the so called ''Serbian revolt''
    Yeah, ‘loyal servants’ lol


    Most of these ‘historians’ haven’t even done the most basic research. Or, perhaps they are incentivized to write such rubbish.

    For example, as an amateur observer, just by studying the tax system of that period in the region one can see who was that Ottomans mostly preferred in their lands as Raja. Albanian Catholic families in Kosove paid three times more tax than your typical Serbian Raja family. The local Pashas, who were mostly of Albanian extraction, most definitely preferred Serbians to live and work their lands. Or else we wouldn’t see such a disparity in the tax policy.

    Such aggressive policies is also what drove Christian Albanians to mass conversion, me thinks. Especially in Kosove.

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    Kosovo: Albanian Anti-Ottoman revolt (1690)

    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Yeah, ‘loyal servants’ lol


    Most of these ‘historians’ haven’t even done the most basic research. Or, perhaps they are incentivized to write such rubbish.

    For example, as an amateur observer, just by studying the tax system of that period in the region one can see who was that Ottomans mostly preferred in their lands as Raja. Albanian Catholic families in Kosove paid three times more tax than your typical Serbian Raja family. The local Pashas, who were mostly of Albanian extraction, most definitely preferred Serbians to live and work their lands. Or else we wouldn’t see such a disparity in the tax policy.

    Such aggressive policies is also what drove Christian Albanians to mass conversion, me thinks. Especially in Kosove.
    Overall Albanians were considered loyal servant. At the end of the day we wanted to replace a German prince with a Turkish one two years after Declaration of Independence.
    That should tell us all something.
    I am not sure if we could ever get rid of the Ottoman Empire if was not for the Balkan Wars.
    There were some people that wanted change and looked toward West, but majority of the elites were fully ottoman. Look at Vlora family, and you will understand the connection the feudal families of Albanian had with Istambul. They only jumped the ottoman ship after it was seeking with the help of the Austrians.

    The rest is cheap nationalist propaganda.


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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    Yeah, ‘loyal servants’ lol


    Most of these ‘historians’ haven’t even done the most basic research. Or, perhaps they are incentivized to write such rubbish.

    For example, as an amateur observer, just by studying the tax system of that period in the region one can see who was that Ottomans mostly preferred in their lands as Raja. Albanian Catholic families in Kosove paid three times more tax than your typical Serbian Raja family. The local Pashas, who were mostly of Albanian extraction, most definitely preferred Serbians to live and work their lands. Or else we wouldn’t see such a disparity in the tax policy.

    Such aggressive policies is also what drove Christian Albanians to mass conversion, me thinks. Especially in Kosove.
    Some Pashas were Serbian converts that's why the Serbian churches in Kosova were restored during the Ottoman period.

    If we look at all the sources all together, including my last post, while there might of been some Serbs among these Albanians
    the largest numbers that joined the Germans/Austrians are mentioned as Albanian such as the 20,000 Arnauts, the 6,000
    and the 5,000 and there is mention of Albanians many other times. Yet in Serbian history and according to these 'historians' they are all claimed as Serbs. Obviously an absolute exaggeration.

    I don't think there were as many people that joined Ottoman forces but if we look at the sources here in some of the links it mentions also Serbs fighting on Ottoman side

    Yet in Serbian historiography and some of these 'historians' they claim it was only Albanians because of their 'Muslim' religion, while Serbs in Kosova are constantly depicted as liberators, Albanians in Kosova are depicted as Ottoman transplants and the 'rebellious Christian' Serbs were driven out.

    Obviously completely rubbish narrative that does not seem to have any historical evidence especially if we look at sources regarding Kosova from 1448 to 1690.

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    ,.......................

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Overall Albanians were considered loyal servant. At the end of the day we wanted to replace a German prince with a Turkish one two years after Declaration of Independence.
    That should tell us all something.
    I am not sure if we could ever get rid of the Ottoman Empire if was not for the Balkan Wars.
    There were some people that wanted change and looked toward West, but majority of the elites were fully ottoman. Look at Vlora family, and you will understand the connection the feudal families of Albanian had with Istambul. They only jumped the ottoman ship after it was seeking with the help of the Austrians.

    The rest is cheap nationalist propaganda.


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    I am talking about Kosova and not Vlora or Albania proper. I am not sure how nationalist sources from the 17th century are cheap nationalist propaganda. None of these sources support that Albanians in Kosova are Ottoman transplants or loyal servants. It is completely rubbish. They talk even of Serbs in Kosova joining Ottoman forces. You did not provide a single historical evidence for any of your claims. Albanians in Kosova and Northern Albania led an anti-Ottoman resistance in 1690 and later. They do not speak of vast majority of people joining Ottoman forces. The Albanian Catholic Archbishop led an anti-Ottoman resistance yet in Serbian sources it is claimed it was the Serbian Orthodox Arsenije who then supposedly led 30,000 - 40,000 Serbsa out of Kosova, in some sources they claim 100,000's yet there is no historical evidence for this.
    None of these sources mention the Serbian Arsenije.

    For his part, he continued his march and arrived on the 6th, as reported earlier, in Prisiran [Prizren], the Capital of Albania, where he was welcomed by the Archbishop (5) [36r] of that country and by the Patriarch of Clementa with their various religious ceremonies
    Clementa = Kelmendi .... There is no mention of any Arsenije. Other sources mention the Archbishop of Albania. Prizren is mentioned as capital of Albania.

    The Balkan Wars came after an Albanian revolt in Kosova in 1912 which weakened the Ottoman Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_revolt_of_1912 , The Ottoman Empire in Kosova and Macedonia was practically defeated by Albanians according to other sources.


    In Kosova is where the Albanian national movement began such as the League of Prizren, League of Peja etc, it first seeked greater rights within the empire then later independence. None of these sources support that we were loyal servants or the only servants or that we terrorized Serbs or that we were transplanted in Kosova.

    Those Pashas and people you are talking about mainly took advantage of their circumstances, they served the Ottoman empire to get a carrier within the military or as officers then when the time came they also changed sides. It was like this with all nationalities. I don't think you even understood the word 'loyal servant' here. The Austrians also mistreated people. They burned down Skopje. In Skopje there were recorded 3,000 Jews that fled because of the Austrians. Yes many of these Albanians that revolted had been paid wages as soldiers by Ottomans but they weren't 'loyal servants' , they were people that adopted to their circumstances to make a life.

    Just like people joined the Roman Empire when the Romans occupied the Balkans, people adopted Latin and served the Romans eventually despite they had revolted against the Romans, the Roman Empire eventually also collapsed. This does not make you a 'loyal servant' . People joined based on their interests.

    None of these sources support the Balkans had supposedly ethno-nationalist conflicts before the 19th-20th century.

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    These sources in 1690 mention a bigger number of Albanians fighting the Ottomans and joining Austrians than the number of Albanians who fought on the Ottoman side. Same thing for Northern Albania and the Has region. You can also read Noel Malcolm's newest book on this 'Rebels, Believers, Survivors' if you scroll to the chapter called 'History' which talks about these events and the 'Great Migration of Serbs' .

    Those reasons you state regarding Ottoman independence is because Albanians were one of the last people to develop a national consciousness in the Balkans not because we were all servants fighting against other Balkan nations some kind of ethno-nationalist war who supposedly were more rebellious. We had many different religions and were less organized. It started changing with the Albanian National Awakening, the League of Prizren, League of Peja etc.

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    After the Albanian revolt of 1912 some sources pretty much state the Ottoman Empire was defeated like for example Aubrey Herbert writes that it was Albanians who defeated the Ottomans and not the Serbs, Bulgarians or Greeks, when the Serbs crossed over into Kosova, Macedonia and Albania or at the time what was 'Ethnic Albania', they met mostly an Albanian resistance. I have a book that talks about this.

    Other Balkan nations such as Serbs certainly never liberated us. They committed massacres and occupied Albanian lands. The Greek War of Independence had Orthodox Albanians fighting in their ranks also.

    Also what about Cerciz Topulli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Çerçiz_Topulli ?

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    You are doing nothing but cherrypicking actually. Some Pashas in Albania etc do not support
    that our people were loyal Ottoman Servants when we are talking about the vast majority of the population.
    No sources support that there was any kind of ethno-nationalist conflict in the Balkans before 19th-20th
    century or that all the Balkan nations were always rebellious, constantly seeking Ottoman independence, except
    for Albanians who were supposedly always loyal Ottoman servants. This is the whole nationalist narrative in Serbia.
    Serbian churches in Kosova were restored thanks to Serbian-Ottoman Pashas. Serbian Despotate after battle of Kosova
    in 1389 became an Ottoman vassal and deserted Anti-Ottoman campaign in Battle of Kosova 1448.


    People joined sides based on their own interests. It was like this with all nationalities. When the Austrians
    came many people joined the Austrians. Texts from these events pretty much prove far more Albanians joined the
    Austrians.


    It was in reaction to the revival of the old exaggerated claims about the 'Velika Seoba' - including a programme on Belgrade television which stated that 400,000 Serbs had left Kosovo in 1690 - that the Kosovar historian Skender Rizaj published the first explicit attack, from an Albanian point of view, om the Serb historiography of these events: while accepting that some Serbs did support the Austrians, he argued that the majority of Piccolominis 20,000 volunteers were Albanian And although the detailed breakdown of that total which he gave seems to have been speculative , his argument was based on a larger knowledge of the ethnic and demographic situation in 17th century Kosovo, derived from Ottoman sources. Overall the position adopted by Rizaj seems to have been substantially correct



    National Awakening among Balkan people happened late and what is true is that we were one of the last to develop that.
    Largely also to religious differences and less organized. There were also inner political conflicts. The Arvanites, Souliotes
    etc who joined the Greek War of Independence and fought the Albanian Pashas, this was basically an Albanian inner conflict.


    In what is today Albania/Kosova there were many revolts against the Ottomans seeking greater rights within the Ottoman Empire. Then later full Independence.


    Cerciz Topulli in Southern Albania is said to of seeked independence, wanting to entirely get rid of the Turks.


    The Balkan Wars happened thanks to the Albanian revolt of 1912, had it not been for it,
    the Balkan Wars would of probably never happened. So no, we were far from 'loyal Servants' just because
    people served the Ottoman Empire when they were under it for 500 years, it was like people who served the Roman
    Empire or any other Empire for that matter.

    Many of these claims these historians make are completely rubbish.




    Mass conversion to Islam can be explained by the fact that people were poor. Just like there was a shift among people over to Latin during the Roman Period and Christianization.

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    It's also interesting how the Serbs cling on to Kosova, while they also occupied Macedonia and modern Albania, colonization of Macedonia etc, and they also took Vojvodina from the Hungarians which the Serbs had settled during the Ottoman period from Serbia proper.
    At the same time they were involved in conflict in Bosnia, Croatia etc. Yet they claim their 'historical right' is also in Kosova.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Overall Albanians were considered loyal servant.
    By whom? Teenagers on YouTube and forums?
    At the end of the day we wanted to replace a German prince with a Turkish one two years after Declaration of Independence.
    Not true! The Albanians simply didn't want a foreign king. The elite of the country was wrong with the timing because they had to wait for the end of the First World War to replace Prince Weid with an Albanian king ad it happened. While the peasant movement of Haxhi Qamili does not represent the Albanians. Always and everywhere there are regressive and anti -revolutionary forces.
    That should tell us all something.
    I am not sure if we could ever get rid of the Ottoman Empire if was not for the Balkan Wars.
    You are ignoring all the Albanian revolts before the independence. You should read about that period of time.
    There were some people that wanted change and looked toward West, but majority of the elites were fully ottoman. Look at Vlora family, and you will understand the connection the feudal families of Albanian had with Istambul. They only jumped the ottoman ship after it was seeking with the help of the Austrians.
    Again you are wrong. I don't know what's the problem with Vlora family. Maybe you will elaborate better and explain what you have in mind. Of course Albanian feudals had connection in Istanbul. It's something normal for the Albanians and for the other people of Empire. And this is valid not only for the Ottoman Empire but for all the empires during the history. The capital of the Empire is the capital of the world for the citizens of the Empire. But Albanian feudal had connections with other powers, with Russians, French, Brits, etc. And again you are ignoring two important moments of our history, the League of Prizren and the Congress of Manastir.
    The rest is cheap nationalist propaganda.


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    Sorry to say but you have a wrong idea of how works an empire in general and the Ottoman Empire specifically in this case. And you should read more about Albanian History.

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    I would actually say that it's possible Albanians developed a national unity or some kind of a national counsciousness under Skanderbeg who led resistance against the Ottomans. Albanians were one of the last people to be fully occupied by the Ottomans. After his death people kept putting up resistance but there were lots of betrayals and no unity, as a result Albania became occupied by the Ottomans and for a long period we basically lost that unity until some kind of national awakening started to develop in the 19th century.

    It's also interesting how many of these Ottoman and Austrian documents refer to parts of 'Kosova' and 'Macedonia' as 'Albania' so much for the Slavs who claim the Albanians there are living in 'Serbia' etc .

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    I am talking about Kosova and not Vlora or Albania proper. I am not sure how nationalist sources from the 17th century are cheap nationalist propaganda. None of these sources support that Albanians in Kosova are Ottoman transplants or loyal servants. It is completely rubbish. They talk even of Serbs in Kosova joining Ottoman forces. You did not provide a single historical evidence for any of your claims. Albanians in Kosova and Northern Albania led an anti-Ottoman resistance in 1690 and later. They do not speak of vast majority of people joining Ottoman forces. The Albanian Catholic Archbishop led an anti-Ottoman resistance yet in Serbian sources it is claimed it was the Serbian Orthodox Arsenije who then supposedly led 30,000 - 40,000 Serbsa out of Kosova, in some sources they claim 100,000's yet there is no historical evidence for this.
    None of these sources mention the Serbian Arsenije.



    Clementa = Kelmendi .... There is no mention of any Arsenije. Other sources mention the Archbishop of Albania. Prizren is mentioned as capital of Albania.

    The Balkan Wars came after an Albanian revolt in Kosova in 1912 which weakened the Ottoman Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_revolt_of_1912 , The Ottoman Empire in Kosova and Macedonia was practically defeated by Albanians according to other sources.


    In Kosova is where the Albanian national movement began such as the League of Prizren, League of Peja etc, it first seeked greater rights within the empire then later independence. None of these sources support that we were loyal servants or the only servants or that we terrorized Serbs or that we were transplanted in Kosova.

    Those Pashas and people you are talking about mainly took advantage of their circumstances, they served the Ottoman empire to get a carrier within the military or as officers then when the time came they also changed sides. It was like this with all nationalities. I don't think you even understood the word 'loyal servant' here. The Austrians also mistreated people. They burned down Skopje. In Skopje there were recorded 3,000 Jews that fled because of the Austrians. Yes many of these Albanians that revolted had been paid wages as soldiers by Ottomans but they weren't 'loyal servants' , they were people that adopted to their circumstances to make a life.

    Just like people joined the Roman Empire when the Romans occupied the Balkans, people adopted Latin and served the Romans eventually despite they had revolted against the Romans, the Roman Empire eventually also collapsed. This does not make you a 'loyal servant' . People joined based on their interests.

    None of these sources support the Balkans had supposedly ethno-nationalist conflicts before the 19th-20th century.
    Loyal servant or “Sadik” is a consideration that should be seen with the eyes of Turks/ottomans not Albanians. For that you should read ottoman archives. With all the evidence you provided, It seems that only Albanians from Albanian were loyal servants not Albanians Kosovars. Albanian from Albania declared independence and two years latter asked for a Turkish prince, lowered the Albanian flag in Durres and raised the Turkish one, if this is not a proof worth considering, I don’t know what is.






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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    After the Albanian revolt of 1912 some sources pretty much state the Ottoman Empire was defeated like for example Aubrey Herbert writes that it was Albanians who defeated the Ottomans and not the Serbs, Bulgarians or Greeks, when the Serbs crossed over into Kosova, Macedonia and Albania or at the time what was 'Ethnic Albania', they met mostly an Albanian resistance. I have a book that talks about this.

    Other Balkan nations such as Serbs certainly never liberated us. They committed massacres and occupied Albanian lands. The Greek War of Independence had Orthodox Albanians fighting in their ranks also.

    Also what about Cerciz Topulli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Çerçiz_Topulli ?
    Topulli is the exemption not the rule, he had few man. The elites (pasha/ bej) did not support war for independence.
    In 1912 Ottomans were in war with Italy, which Ottomans lost.
    Never said Serb liberated us, Austrian did.
    But if no Balkan war I seriously doubt that we could become indipendente since the Austrian did not want the Ottoman Empire to collapse.

    Why Kudistan was never liberated they are still fighting for Freedom?



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    Once again I have to repeat myself,

    In Kosova/Northern Albania far more people supported the Austrians than Ottomans. You can just look at the numbers.
    Prizren was an Albanian town. Western Kosova had an Albanian majority yet you claim this is nationalistic nonsense when we are literally using sources from the 17th century ? It seems Serbian propaganda really got into your head. There is no evidence that our people were ever loyal Ottoman servants while people like the Serbs were supposedly oppressed people who constantly fought the Ottomans. This is exactly what is complete nationalistic nonsense actually and is based on nothing but racism, depicting us as some kind of terrorist alien Islamic people while the 'Chrsitian Serbs' as oppressed and Europes chosen people that were pushed out from Kosova. Many Christians served the Ottomans. In fact they preferred them to stay Christian so they would also pay taxes.

    Catholics among the Ottomans came to be despised largely because the Austrians were Catholics and the Albanian Catholics of Northern Albania and Kosova that led some of these revolts with both Christian and Muslim Albanians.

    There is a difference between being a servant and being a loyal servant, just because you're a servant doesn't make you loyal.

    When Albanians fought Skanderbeg under the Ottomans they were 'loyal' servants ? Why would we be 'loyal' when they committed attrocities ? When the Austrians committed crimes people stopped being loyal to the Austrians.


    Balkan Wars happened largely thanks to the Albanian revolt of 1912. It's true that we didn't seek initially independence from the Ottomans but more rights. You seem to be unaware of many of the revolts against Ottomans that happened in Albania and Kosovo in the 1800's and 1900's.


    You pulled out some Pashas of Albania as supposedly some evidence and some people that served in the Ottoman ranks. Yes many Albanians served in Ottoman ranks as did Janissaries, many Albanians moved to Turkey, this certainly has absolutely no proof that Albanians were loyal servants while other Balkan nations such as Serbs supposedly were oppressed people that constantly fought against Ottoman occupation, many Albanians also opposed the Ottomans when given chance. Many Balkan Slavs served in the Ottoman ranks too even if the number of Albanians was greater, it is certainly no proof that Albanians are Ottoman transplants and the 'Christian Serbs' oppressed and rebellious people.

    If you had actually bothered reading what I wrote it was a response to Tim Judah's claim that this revolt in 1690 was a Serbian revolt and that after 1690 the demographics began to change into Albanian thanks to 'loyal Albanian servants' of the Ottomans. The texts I provided prove this is rubbish yet you claim this is all nationalistic nonsense ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Overall Albanians were considered loyal servant. At the end of the day we wanted to replace a German prince with a Turkish one two years after Declaration of Independence.
    That should tell us all something.
    I am not sure if we could ever get rid of the Ottoman Empire if was not for the Balkan Wars.
    There were some people that wanted change and looked toward West, but majority of the elites were fully ottoman. Look at Vlora family, and you will understand the connection the feudal families of Albanian had with Istambul. They only jumped the ottoman ship after it was seeking with the help of the Austrians.

    The rest is cheap nationalist propaganda.


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    You are mixing two different periods with over 200 years in between. For the period we are talking about, Albanians in Kosove were predominantly Catholic. Especially in the rural regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broder View Post
    You are mixing two different periods with over 200 years in between. For the period we are talking about, Albanians in Kosove were predominantly Catholic. Especially in the rural regions.
    Many Albanians in Kosova were already Muslims actually. Prizren in Kosova was mostly Muslim Albanian, so was Vushtrri etc. Many of these people who revolted were Muslim and they are mentioned as Muslim who had formerly fought in the Ottoman ranks and were paid wages, some are mentioned as faithless, some sources mention them as both Muslim and Christians. There are Serbs mentioned also and they also mention Serbs in the Ottoman ranks.

    Though you are right there were also Catholics. But there were also Catholics from Northern Albania that came assist if you read Noel Malcolm's essay on this.

    The guy has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. In Serbian and Western media this whole revolt is depicted as Serbian, while Albanians were people who supported the Ottomans. It is then claimed Serbs departed. The texts of these periods easily prove this is nonsense.

    Serving in the Ottoman ranks certainly does not make you a loyal servant. They were paid wages and all Balkan people did this to some degree.
    They chose side based on their interests when the time came down to it. National unity etc did not exist at the time.

    Not much historical evidence that supports our people were constant 'loyal' Ottoman servants while the Serbs were rebellious liberators that were pushed out. In fact, many Serbs settled Kosova during the Ottoman period, 1700's, 1800's etc. Also some Vlachs. I am not sure what the guy is even trying to get at. One can easily read texts from these periods to prove this is nonsense.

    In Kosova we did not become the absolute majority until the mid/late 1800's for example when they expelled Albanians from what is today South-Eastern Serbia.

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