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Thread: Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    I am indeed Z5017>Z17107>BY4461, that same branch as Unikkatil (another coincidence) and Trojet knows this very well because my results were posted on their project
    Yes, I confirm.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    As stated here, R3918, 993.5-1149 calCE, Sirmium Serbia, is under R1b-L51>L52>L151. He is not J2b-L283>>CTS6190.

    I'm not sure why Yleaf assigned him to J-CTS6190, but in this case the assignment was wrong as I manually checked the BAM file.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Hawk has strong IE autosomal DNA, I bet he is wide shouldered, and has good stiff punches. The weasel, based on his anti-social personality, is no warrior. No man talks like that.
    Lmfao. I've done weightlifting competitively. There aren't many humans bigger than I am. Didn't do much MMA but trust me, I don't need it. I can turn Hawk into a squawking bird

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    As stated here, R3918, 993.5-1149 calCE, Sirmium Serbia, is under R1b-L51>L52>L151. He is not J2b-L283>>CTS6190.

    I'm not sure why Yleaf assigned him to J-CTS6190, but in this case the assignment was wrong as I manually checked the BAM file.
    Hey do you know anything about autosomal DNA of that early Montenegrin. That seems the closest thing we have to a southern Illyrian and we still have nothing.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Lmfao. I've done weightlifting competitively. There aren't many humans bigger than I am. Didn't do much MMA but trust me, I don't need it. I can turn Hawk into a squawking bird
    Yeah, and we trust you. Now go play some RPG game.

  6. #231
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Guys don't you find it shameful, threatening each other online, reminds me of genetics discussions on youtube comments. At least the meta there now is self depreciating sarcastic jokes, with an emphasis on hyperbole. The Balkans truly embraced the absurd and are poking fun at it.

    But here you are all serious talking about broad shoulders and punching each other. LMAO (ps in the real world broad shoulders rarely help, shit goes south very unexpectedly, why modern martial arts have a philosophical emphasis on violence as a last resort to self defense)

    But imagine a neutral reader interested in Iron Age European genetics, and coming across this thread and reading this shit... what sort of image are we portraying here? Certainly not a flattering one.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Hey do you know anything about autosomal DNA of that early Montenegrin. That seems the closest thing we have to a southern Illyrian and we still have nothing.
    I have ordered similarity maps for a couple of samples, including that one, and the interesting R1a from ~200-300 AD from Ph2ter.
    He will be on it as soon as g25 coordinates are published for the samples.

    Think it will paint a straight forward picture which was expected, but lacking before the samples from this paper.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I have ordered similarity maps for a couple of samples, including that one, and the interesting R1a from ~200-300 AD from Ph2ter.
    He will be on it as soon as g25 coordinates are published for the samples.

    Think it will paint a straight forward picture which was expected, but lacking before the samples from this paper.
    Are you referring to the Sarmatian from AD Serbia? Next to the Doclean sample the R3544 Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia 550 - 601 CE J2b-L283>Z1043​ should also be interesting.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Are you referring to the Sarmatian from AD Serbia? Next to the Doclean sample the R3544 Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia 550 - 601 CE J2b-L283>Z1043​ should also be interesting.

    This one:

    R9673; 79-213 AD; Viminacium, Serbia; R1a-Z280>Z92>Y4459>YP617>Y29965>pre-Y88926

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Absolutely agreed, was my impression too. But its rather surprising, somewhat, still, that E-V13 was not more common in the so far made samples. But this might be sampling bias from the study too, because otherwise the massive dominance of E-V13 in the other Viminacium sampling is not explainable. Probably they looked for more exotic burials which were likely to be migrants in some cases?
    We'll see how the rest scores.
    You see there are more e-v13
    As apperently more samples in this research needed
    To be anlaysed

    Pribislav :
    R3664; 680-823 AD; Sipar, Croatia; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>BY152493* (xBY152552,FTA7686)

    P.s
    This is the same dude that was e-v22
    By rafc anlaysis from anthrogenica
    But with pribislav anlaysis it is e-v13
    I hope rafc wasnt wrong with the zadar e-L791 dude probably not because his autosomal was near eastern..
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    Ftdna path
    E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>CTS10298>PF196 2>M123>M34>L795>S11835>S12033>S11956>S11168>S10483 >BY96055

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    This one:

    R9673; 79-213 AD; Viminacium, Serbia; R1a-Z280>Z92>Y4459>YP617>Y29965>pre-Y88926
    Yes, that's the Sarmatian. R1a-Z92 was also found in Beska, Serbia.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Guys don't you find it shameful, threatening each other online, reminds me of genetics discussions on youtube comments. At least the meta there now is self depreciating sarcastic jokes, with an emphasis on hyperbole. The Balkans truly embraced the absurd and are poking fun at it.

    But here you are all serious talking about broad shoulders and punching each other. LMAO (ps in the real world broad shoulders rarely help, shit goes south very unexpectedly, why modern martial arts have a philosophical emphasis on violence as a last resort to self defense)

    But imagine a neutral reader interested in Iron Age European genetics, and coming across this thread and reading this shit... what sort of image are we portraying here? Certainly not a flattering one.
    For the matter of fact, I didn't threaten anyone, i find it disrespectful intercepting like that in the middle of conversation which involves him not or anyone in a bad light.

  13. #238
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    You see there are more e-v13
    As apperently more samples in this research needed
    To be anlaysed
    Pribislav :
    R3664; 680-823 AD; Sipar, Croatia; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>BY152493* (xBY152552,FTA7686)
    P.s
    This is the same dude that was e-v22
    By rafc anlaysis from anthrogenica
    But with pribislav anlaysis it is e-v13
    I hope rafc wasnt wrong with the zadar e-L791 dude probably not because his autosomal was near eastern..
    Histri were Pannonian Urnfield influenced. Good to know and indirectly deduce that E-V13 could potentially be involved in that movement which affected Iron Age Albania. Expecting E-V13 in Albania during Early Iron Age.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Histri were Pannonian Urnfield influenced. Good to know and indirectly deduce that E-V13 could potentially be involved in that movement which affected Iron Age Albania. Expecting E-V13 in Albania during Early Iron Age.
    He is dated at 680-823 AD which is a millennial difference with regards to the Early Iron Age timeframe. Making conclusions based on late Antiquity samples as to what the much older Early Iron Age population might have looked like is a little bit far fetched. See the examples above with the Sarmatian presence in Serbia in much earlier AD times.

    Nonetheless Maliq would be such a possible candidate for Albania. I am not sure if it was only one sample or multiple from there which are due to be published.



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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    He is dated at 680-823 AD which is a millennial difference with regards to the Early Iron Age timeframe. Making conclusions based on late Antiquity samples as to what the much older Early Iron Age population might have looked like is a little bit far fetched. See the examples above with the Sarmatian presence in Serbia in much earlier AD times.

    Nonetheless Maliq would be such a possible candidate for Albania. I am not sure if it was only one sample or multiple from there which are due to be published.


    That's right, he is a bit late. But the other one from Zadar is actually on early stage of Roman Empire and his autosomal points he was native.

    Let's wait for more samples, hopefully it gives us more accurate picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I have ordered similarity maps for a couple of samples, including that one, and the interesting R1a from ~200-300 AD from Ph2ter.
    He will be on it as soon as g25 coordinates are published for the samples.

    Think it will paint a straight forward picture which was expected, but lacking before the samples from this paper.
    Awesome. He's Z638 too right? This one will be without a doubt the closest to Proto-Albanians.

    My guess would be he plots just south of modern Albanians. So take away 5-10% Gothic and 15-20% Slavic from modern Albanians and you'll get this guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    You see there are more e-v13
    As apperently more samples in this research needed
    To be anlaysed
    Pribislav :
    R3664; 680-823 AD; Sipar, Croatia; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>BY152493* (xBY152552,FTA7686)
    P.s
    This is the same dude that was e-v22
    By rafc anlaysis from anthrogenica
    But with pribislav anlaysis it is e-v13
    I hope rafc wasnt wrong with the zadar e-L791 dude probably not because his autosomal was near eastern..
    We had an older thread about a subclade of this branch:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...346#post648346

    There are two Italians tested on FTDNA. Scaledinnovation puts the path from about Slovenia-Southern Austria towards North Eastern Italy. I'd say regardless of whether its an ancient local lineage, or came from North Eastern Italy, it likely is a Venetic-Histrian-Liburnian, cremating Urnfielder into Hallstatt lineage most likely.
    At least that's more likely than anything else at this point.

    Upstream there are Germans, English and Belorussians, nothing from the Balkans. Looks like a not as widespread, but very old lineage dating back to the Urnfield period. I wouldn't wonder if we get more E-V13 samples from Italy, if people from North Italy in particular would test more.

    Also compare:
    http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

    Just enter E-FT96633. We don't know whether its that subclade, but a similar path would make perfect sense - before the Medieval last meters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Yeah, and we trust you. Now go play some RPG game.
    Says the guy who follows the fantasies of Riverman that half of europe was Daco-Thracian...
    Boy you the one gaming💀


  19. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Says the guy who follows the fantasies of Riverman that half of europe was Daco-Thracian...
    Boy you the one gaming������

    I do agree with him that Daco-Thracians were largely E-V13, but they also had R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51 (original Tumulus people) and perhaps some G2a, J2b2-L283, J2a but in small pockets.

    And i don't agree with him that all E-V13 should be assigned to Daco-Thracians, some of them might have been among Illyrians, Celts, some like Vatina and Dubovac-Zuto Brdo/Grla Mara might have been non-IE speaking and were pushed from the Gava people (younger E-V13 subclades) down to Aegean.

    It's all about giving context to things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Says the guy who follows the fantasies of Riverman that half of europe was Daco-Thracian...
    Boy you the one gaming💀

    Just consider historical sources and maps. I didn't make the distribution of Thracians much bigger.
    Basically its about Eastern Hungary, Eastern Slovakia, Transcarpathia and adjacent regions of Poland and Ukraine, Romania, Moldova, Bulgaria, European Turkey, Macedonia, very Northern Greece, Serbia.
    Influences reached much further, but they didn't turn those regions for long.
    In all those areas we have archaeological and historical sources which connect them with Thracians.
    Gva-Channelled Ware, Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo-Babadag are very real and highly important archaeological complexes which covered the mentioned areas.

    It's not my fault or that of Hawk if people have no knowledge about the prehistory and history of the Balkans and where the cultures and people came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We had an older thread about a subclade of this branch:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...346#post648346

    There are two Italians tested on FTDNA. Scaledinnovation puts the path from about Slovenia-Southern Austria towards North Eastern Italy. I'd say regardless of whether its an ancient local lineage, or came from North Eastern Italy, it likely is a Venetic-Histrian-Liburnian, cremating Urnfielder into Hallstatt lineage most likely.
    At least that's more likely than anything else at this point.

    Upstream there are Germans, English and Belorussians, nothing from the Balkans. Looks like a not as widespread, but very old lineage dating back to the Urnfield period. I wouldn't wonder if we get more E-V13 samples from Italy, if people from North Italy in particular would test more.

    Also compare:
    http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

    Just enter E-FT96633. We don't know whether its that subclade, but a similar path would make perfect sense - before the Medieval last meters.

    Remove smooth path in scaledinnovation..............you get more accurate results


    Is Agostini ( surname ) from South Tyrol one of these 2 italians ?
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Remove smooth path in scaledinnovation..............you get more accurate results
    Is Agostini ( surname ) from South Tyrol one of these 2 italians ?
    I don't know and if going into the data base of the M35 project my browser crashes. You could ask the thread starter who might know his matches. If you get to know something, I would be interested as well.

  23. #248
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    Well, certainly i would really like to know about the Veneti-Histri people, what Y-DNA they carried, because archaeology states that they derived from Este Culture which in turn shared a common ancestor with Proto-VIllanovan. Somehow things are a bit messy, and i guess the Urnfield Cultural Complex should mean that in this cultural complex there was various Y-DNA participating and sharing in this networking channel which shared common beliefs, rituals, and lifestyle.

    I am guessing we should play the hard game of comparing the burials with pre-Urnfield/Hallstatt and post to deduce who was the lineage because the bearers of these culture unfortunately cremated their deaths and we require a science-fiction tool to get the DNA from the ashes in urn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Well, certainly i would really like to know about the Veneti-Histri people, what Y-DNA they carried, because archaeology states that they derived from Este Culture which in turn shared a common ancestor with Proto-VIllanovan. Somehow things are a bit messy, and i guess the Urnfield Cultural Complex should mean that in this cultural complex there was various Y-DNA participating and sharing in this networking channel which shared common beliefs, rituals, and lifestyle.

    I am guessing we should play the hard game of comparing the burials with pre-Urnfield/Hallstatt and post to deduce who was the lineage because the bearers of these culture unfortunately cremated their deaths and we require a science-fiction tool to get the DNA from the ashes in urn.
    The Veneti-Histrian-Liburnian complex, but the Veneti in particular, have not just the Urnfield connection, they being also very much influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi-Early Hallstatt. The Illyrian core on the other hand being rather avoided by the Thraco-Cimmerians, practically no finds there.
    These could be very late migrants to the areas in which they are found, but if not, they all show connections to Urnfield-Hallstatt groups. Thraco-Cimmerian horizon find concentrations:



    Note the rarity of finds in the Illyrian core territory, but it goes around the Illyrians, moving deeply West and South into Italy. Its as if the Thraco-Cimmerian expansion avoided the Illyrian core territory - which they actually did. Thraco-Cimmerians united the advanced knowledge of iron making they brought from the East with the abilities which Gva already had shown and many of the Gva/Channelled Ware cultural innovations. This new fusion was at the base of the Hallstatt revolution and the spread of advanced iron making, especially in weaponry, as well as improved and heavier cavalry.

    A common find is the iron "Cimmerian dagger" in this horizon:

    https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/...s/lot/id/41399

    During the period 900-700 BC a considerable
    number of objects manufactured in eastern Europe
    workshops appear in archaeological contexts in Central Europe. These materials are found associated
    with Central European materials of the Late Urnfield
    and Early Hallstatt periods in graves and hoards. The
    Thraco-Cimmerian objects are concentrated in the
    Carpathian Basin
    and penetrated as far west as Bohemia, Croatia, Lower Austria and North Italy. Most
    of what came to Central Europe from the east was
    connected with military equipment and horse gear
    ,
    and this fact, speaks for nomads.
    At present, two stages in interactions between
    the Cimmerians of East European Steppes and the
    population of Central Europe can be distinguished
    (ぜ▲ 2003, 39f.). At the early stage (9th 8th
    centuries BC) the contacts with the Upper and Middle Danube region prevailed (the Late Urnfield and
    related cultures). They were reflected in weaponry
    and horse harnesses. At the later stage (8th 7th centuries BC) the contacts of Cimmerians with the cultures of the Thracian Hallstatt and the northern Balkan become stronger, and they reflected in ceramics
    and ornaments
    .
    The new Cimmerian bits consisted of two movable joint parts, meant for riding,
    contrary to the rigid bits of Urnfield Culture which
    were more suitable for traction (Balkwill 1973; Httel 1981). In comparison with the Urnfield bits with
    a size usually of 7 cm, the new Cimmerian types
    were 10 - 11 cm, implying larger breeds of horses
    (Kossack 1998). The use of cavalry in war required
    well-trained horses and skilful experts for the breeding and training of the animals. Wide distribution of
    these innovations assumed either the presence of well
    organized exchange between eastern-Central European elites, or the occurrence of new representatives of
    Cimmerian nobility with their retinue and equipment
    in the Carpato-Danubian region.
    Its just such a pity only females and one "true Cimmerian" being sampled from the Mezocsat context, but no Carpathian basin local males:

    During the Early Iron Age in Central Europe a
    fairly clear demarcation between two centers of Cimmerian influences can be observed.
    The first is located on the Great Hungarian Plain
    and Southwest Slowakia as well as southern Moravia
    (Patek 1974; Kemenczei 1984; Chochorowski 1993;
    Romsauer 1999). Its sites show fundamental changes
    in the cultural landscape in comparison with the previous epoch. Here are concentrated the monuments
    of the Mezőcst type, which reflects the spreading of the eastern traditions in burial rites (flexed
    or stretched out inhumations), material culture and
    economy. The Mezőcst phenomenon could be interpreted as a result of the penetration of separate
    Cimmerian groups in Hungary and neighbouring
    territories and their mixing with the local populations. The East Carpathian Basin was a particular
    bridgehead from which a local variant of Cimmerian
    Culture spread its influences and developed contacts
    with other regions of the Central and western Europe.

    The nomadic or semi-nomadic way of life of
    the Mezőcst population assisted in the transmission
    of the technical achievements and ideology of Cimmerian Culture (horse harness, weaponry, symbols
    of power, etc) through all Central Europe.
    The second center of Cimmerian influence
    unites the Late Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures which
    continued to develop their economic and cultural traditions to the west of Danube (Patek 1993). Here, in
    the western areas of the early Hallstatt world, the artifacts of Cimmerian type have been found mainly in
    the burials, which reflect a high social status of their
    owners. Contacts of nomads with the local populations have influenced the social structures of western Hallstatt population (Kristiansen 1998). These
    changes in social models were accompanied by the
    widespread introduction of iron and the adaptation of
    new religious and symbolical values. A consideration
    of the western area of the distribution of Cimmerian innovations allows us to assume the appearance
    there in the 8th century BC of a new social organization for which there are typical fortified settlements
    and kurgan burials (Pcs-Jakabhegy, Sopron, etc).
    In the territories of both centers, the finds,
    which could be considered as imports and imitations
    of Cimmerian objects, are the most numerous.
    While imports are important indeed, there was movement of people too, and be it primarily specialists and elites with their retinue, like obervable in Frg in particular.

    Very interesting is to note were typical Thraco-Cimmerian bits being found:


    During the Pre-Scythian epoch, there is a wide distribution in the Carpatho-Danubian area of bronze
    bits with the ends in the form of circular rings. These
    are known from the following finds of these elements
    of horse gear in Central Europe: Austria (Seeboden,
    Stillfried), Croatia (Batina, Legrad), Czech (Pltenice, Předměřice, Zbořί ), Germany (Steinkirchen),
    Hungary (Biharugra, Dinnys, Dunakmld, PcsJakabhegy, Szanda, Szeged, Fgd), Italy (Este),
    Slovakia (Santovka), Romania (Cipău, Vetiş).
    In Italy its especially Este, Veneti territory! The Croatian finds are in the very North, directly at the border of Hungary and close to the Hungarian steppe landscape.

    https://www.academia.edu/5790493/On_...Central_Europe

    The Veneti were specialists in horse breeding and fighting:
    The Veneti were considered to be excellent horse-breeders widely known for producing the strongest and fasters mares in ancient Italy. Venetic horses were greatly sought-after by the Greeks; they famously won the Olympic Games for Leon of Sparta in 440BC.
    Several Venetic inscriptions mention the word 'ekuperatis', which means 'master of the horse' and perhaps refers to commerce, warfare, nobility, or all of the above.
    https://www.honga.net/totalwar/rome2..._heroic_riders

    The strongly Thraco-Cimmerian/Basarabi influenced Austrian Hallstatt group of Frg had very close ties to the Veneti Este culture as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Remove smooth path in scaledinnovation..............you get more accurate results
    Is Agostini ( surname ) from South Tyrol one of these 2 italians ?
    One is from Foggia, seems to have a good tree back to the 17th century, the other has no good tree, but his surname is most common in Lazio, Tuscany and Abruzzo, much rarer in the North East.

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