Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

[enter_tain]

A third EV-13 in Croatia? And sibling branches as expected again.

I had this argument in the pre-Z638 sample days. Northern Illyrians should be related, but have mostly different branches than southern Illyrian branches. They should mostly not be the same because there should be ~2000 years divergence.

So just like northern Illyrians should have different J2B2 branches (Z638 vs. other Z597), they should also have different EV-13 branches. In fact I would call these populations "Illyroid" that might have became Illyrian proper only later. Kind of like Italy having lots of Italic languages, but only Latin survived and took over everything.

[Riverman]

A third EV-13 in Croatia? And sibling branches as expected again.

I had this argument in the pre-Z638 sample days. Northern Illyrians should be related, but have mostly different branches than southern Illyrian branches. They should mostly not be the same because there should be ~2000 years divergence.

So just like northern Illyrians should have different J2B2 branches (Z638 vs. other Z597), they should also have different EV-13 branches. In fact I would call these populations "Illyroid" that might have became Illyrian proper only later. Kind of like Italy having lots of Italic languages, but only Latin survived and took over everything.

They are all from later periods and 2 of 3 from areas of the Veneti-Histrian-Liburnian block. The one from more Northern Croatia is from an area which received influences, but it should be an Illyrian at the time the sample is from.

Indeed, a lot of what was later Illyrian, Thracian, Greek etc. got assimilated between the MBA and the beginning historical period. If you think about it, most of the E-V13 lineages have a TMRCA in the LBA-EIA transition. This means they had to be together with many other lineages around that time of 1.300-900 BC. This doesn't look like it was the source, but the receiving end, obviously.

[torzio]

One is from Foggia, seems to have a good tree back to the 17th century, the other has no good tree, but his surname is most common in Lazio, Tuscany and Abruzzo, much rarer in the North East.

Foggia is where the Daunians settled from their homeland in the modern border of slovenia and croatia

[torzio]

A third EV-13 in Croatia? And sibling branches as expected again.

I had this argument in the pre-Z638 sample days. Northern Illyrians should be related, but have mostly different branches than southern Illyrian branches. They should mostly not be the same because there should be ~2000 years divergence.

So just like northern Illyrians should have different J2B2 branches (Z638 vs. other Z597), they should also have different EV-13 branches. In fact I would call these populations "Illyroid" that might have became Illyrian proper only later. Kind of like Italy having lots of Italic languages, but only Latin survived and took over everything.

all the apulia illyrians come from the green part only on map below




your Illyrian proper is the black part

[Riverman]

Foggia is where the Daunians settled from their homeland in the modern border of slovenia and croatia

Yes. However, if we don't trust Roman and Early Medieval samples, even a good tree going back to about 1650 is probably no safe bet. That the surname of the second carrier is most common in the Abruzzo and central regions adds up though.

[enter_tain]

They are all from later periods and 2 of 3 from areas of the Veneti-Histrian-Liburnian block. The one from more Northern Croatia is from an area which received influences, but it should be an Illyrian at the time the sample is from.

Indeed, a lot of what was later Illyrian, Thracian, Greek etc. got assimilated between the MBA and the beginning historical period. If you think about it, most of the E-V13 lineages have a TMRCA in the LBA-EIA transition. This means they had to be together with many other lineages around that time of 1.300-900 BC. This doesn't look like it was the source, but the receiving end, obviously.

Are these Veneti-Histrian-Liburnian like your Daco-Sarmatian? You're actually a joke.

There are Illyrian J2B2 lineages surviving even in 2022 AD in Bosnia/Croatia.

[Hawk]

The Veneti-Histrian-Liburnian complex, but the Veneti in particular, have not just the Urnfield connection, they being also very much influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi-Early Hallstatt. The Illyrian core on the other hand being rather avoided by the Thraco-Cimmerians, practically no finds there.
These could be very late migrants to the areas in which they are found, but if not, they all show connections to Urnfield-Hallstatt groups. Thraco-Cimmerian horizon find concentrations:



Note the rarity of finds in the Illyrian core territory, but it goes around the Illyrians, moving deeply West and South into Italy. Its as if the Thraco-Cimmerian expansion avoided the Illyrian core territory - which they actually did. Thraco-Cimmerians united the advanced knowledge of iron making they brought from the East with the abilities which G�va already had shown and many of the G�va/Channelled Ware cultural innovations. This new fusion was at the base of the Hallstatt revolution and the spread of advanced iron making, especially in weaponry, as well as improved and heavier cavalry.

A common find is the iron "Cimmerian dagger" in this horizon:

https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/...s/lot/id/41399





Its just such a pity only females and one "true Cimmerian" being sampled from the Mezocsat context, but no Carpathian basin local males:



While imports are important indeed, there was movement of people too, and be it primarily specialists and elites with their retinue, like obervable in Fr�g in particular.

Very interesting is to note were typical Thraco-Cimmerian bits being found:




In Italy its especially Este, Veneti territory! The Croatian finds are in the very North, directly at the border of Hungary and close to the Hungarian steppe landscape.

https://www.academia.edu/5790493/On_...Central_Europe

The Veneti were specialists in horse breeding and fighting:




https://www.honga.net/totalwar/rome2..._heroic_riders

The strongly Thraco-Cimmerian/Basarabi influenced Austrian Hallstatt group of Fr�g had very close ties to the Veneti Este culture as well.

Veneti-Histri and partially Liburni had nothing to do with the so called Thraco-Cimmerian horizont, they were part of Este Culture, an Urnfield Culture variant. AFAIK, Slovenan archaeologists also involve Lausitz Culture in case of this people, hard to guess.

As i have been telling before, the Daco-Thracian culture was heavily influenced by the Indo-Iranian culture, the Phrygian cap is likely an early Indo-Iranian element, and many of the clothes, attire, religious beliefs. Though they were patriliearly descended from Gava Urnfielders they differed a lot from them in many aspects which includes these Steppe Indo-Iranian influences.

[Riverman]

Veneti-Histri and partially Liburni had nothing to do with the so called Thraco-Cimmerian horizont, they were part of Este Culture, an Urnfield Culture variant.

I didn't suggest they were anything else, but they had at least significant cultural influences. Like you find the horse breed, horse bits, warrior gear, weapons etc. from the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon in Este. As well as a lot of contacts to Fr�g and other East Hallstatt groups from Austria, which were Basarabi influenced.
This doesn't make them anything else but Urnfielders and between Italics and Illyrians ethnically, in my opinion. These are just influences and contacts to the Eastern Urnfield and Thraco-Cimmerian groups, which may have brought some migration, some gene flow. More than in the neighbouring Illyrians proper which had less such contacts and were not part of these networks (Urnfield, Hallstatt).

As i have been telling before, the Daco-Thracian culture was heavily influenced by the Indo-Iranian culture, the Phrygian cap is likely an early Indo-Iranian element, and many of the clothes, attire, religious beliefs. Though they were patriliearly descended from Gava Urnfielders they differed a lot from them in many aspects which includes these Steppe Indo-Iranian influences.

They were so from the start, because Noua-Sabatinovka was their influence and opponent at the same time. Their direct neighbour and influence was coming from the mixed Noua-Wietenberg group in Transylvania. Its even possible they were a formative element of G�va in a way, but rather they were the opponents from which they still learnt something I guess.
Later they had strong influences from the Cimmerians, obviously, but not everywhere as much, and the Scythians - same pattern.

So yes, Iranian influences were there all the time since the earliest stage (Pre-G�va).

[mount123]

all the apulia illyrians come from the green part only on map below

This is an early Iapygian sample and his clade is mostly found in the Hoti tribe and the Y21878>FT29003>Cluster from Albanians of North Macedonia. There is a variety of clades under J-Z597 starting from ancient BCE samples from the Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture and continuing in the Iron Age Illyrians. The Daunian J2b-L283 samples are unfortunately low coverage.

ID
NEO806
Date (mean)
1063 BCE
Phylogeny
J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
Archaeological Context
Italy_BronzeAge
Site
Grotta Delle Mura
Location
40.957, 17.29
Source
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.04.490594v1

J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

As I have said before, this early East Adriatic migration pattern can only be possible if >Z638+ was already on the other side of the ocean which it was, more accurately in the Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture.

Also, this is important to point out since some who have no idea about the phylogeny of J2b-L283 are repeatedly spreading misinformation when it comes to the ancient samples in question. This is my earlier post on this thread regarding this topic:

The J2b-L283>638+ sample is from the same archeological context as the other J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240 which lies within MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture which furthermore attests that the they spread from the same cultural context. If there already was a variety of clades in a MBA Dalmatian context it will also show in the IA Illyrian context who are clearly a parental and autosomal continuity from these samples for which in the East and West Adriatic we already have ancient Z638+ BA samples. Postulating or assuming that Z638+ will be found in more northern or inland ancient samples too is not "jumping to conclusions" in my opinion. That of course does not change the fact that 631>Z1043 was obviously not spread by Celts

[PaleoRevenge]

Are these Veneti-Histrian-Liburnian like your Daco-Sarmatian? You're actually a joke.

They are more like the Mycenaean Hercules weight lifting sample, which you would cluster near if you erase with a pencil eraser the 20% Slavic mixture, than you'd plot right near the wedge shaped like a vagina.

[Hawk]

I didn't suggest they were anything else, but they had at least significant cultural influences. Like you find the horse breed, horse bits, warrior gear, weapons etc. from the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon in Este. As well as a lot of contacts to Fr�g and other East Hallstatt groups from Austria, which were Basarabi influenced.
This doesn't make them anything else but Urnfielders and between Italics and Illyrians ethnically, in my opinion. These are just influences and contacts to the Eastern Urnfield and Thraco-Cimmerian groups, which may have brought some migration, some gene flow. More than in the neighbouring Illyrians proper which had less such contacts and were not part of these networks (Urnfield, Hallstatt).



They were so from the start, because Noua-Sabatinovka was their influence and opponent at the same time. Their direct neighbour and influence was coming from the mixed Noua-Wietenberg group in Transylvania. Its even possible they were a formative element of G�va in a way, but rather they were the opponents from which they still learnt something I guess.
Later they had strong influences from the Cimmerians, obviously, but not everywhere as much, and the Scythians - same pattern.

So yes, Iranian influences were there all the time since the earliest stage (Pre-G�va).

I hope that you know that Thraco-Cimmerian might just denote more like a cultural, innovation influence. What do these people share though is through the Urnfielder Culture common ancestry, the Este descends or share a common ancestry with Proto-VIllanovan, the Proto-Villanova has been noted before to share similarities with Gava and Dubovac-Zuto-Brdo/Grla-Mara. Though by all means this should not mean common Y-DNA, partial shared yes.

How i see and reflect on things is that E-V13 scretched into these culture but more inland Central Balkans to Carpathian Mountains.

Vatin/Grla-Mara/Dubovac and even perhaps Vatya and Brnjica would represent a mixed E-V13 groups with other Y-DNA, while the Gava core should represent a group explicitly carrying E-V13 haplogroup (if i am right). I am just not sure if some E-V13 was before Middle Bronze Age in Cruceni-Belegis and Vatin/Grla Mara or were the Szeremle group who were pushed from Tumulus warriors during their conquest of Pannonia and Southern Central Europe. Could be that Szeremle group who came from Tisza river were part of the story of E-V13, and the other part is the Channeled-Ware rise during Bronze to Iron Age transition who technically imposed themselves upon Tumulus and Encrusted Pottery People but also to the Szeremle/Vatin and the rest causing the domino effect all around and the so called Aegean migration. This migrations probably already started during Middle Bronze Age but they were intensified after the Gava and Tumulus clash down the Danube.

[Riverman]

Can just agree. As for Thraco-Cimmerian, the question is whether some elites and specialists came with the archaeological influence observable.
It was long debated how the Hallstatt elite emerged, might be in part from new horse warriors and specialists, at least in part from the Mezocsat core group.
But will probably hard to prove or disprove because of the widespread cremation.

[enter_tain]

Awesome. He's Z638 too right? This one will be without a doubt the closest to Proto-Albanians.

My guess would be he plots just south of modern Albanians. So take away 5-10% Gothic and 15-20% Slavic from modern Albanians and you'll get this guy.

Oh wow. Look at that. Who would have thought?



This early Montenegro sample is as close of a sample we've have to a Proto-Albanian. Maybe not 100%, but 90% of the way there. Definitely closer to Albanian Illyrians than Croatian Illyrians.

[enter_tain]

@Archetype0ne
To me it looks like Albanians are south Italian-like (Greek-like) + Northeastern European (Slavic). Rather than associated with Northern Italy.

Btw, Jovialis. This was pretty much confirmed if we use this dude as a proxy.

[mount123]

R3481 (211-320.5 calCE, Doclea, Montenegro: J2b-L283>>Z631>Z1043)

Global G25

Distance to: Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481___AD_266___Cover age_56.57%
0.01368605 Italian_Abruzzo
0.01487748 Italian_Umbria
0.01522878 Italian_Marche
0.01567733 Italian_Lazio
0.01691307 Italian_Molise
0.01894819 Italian_Apulia
0.01958602 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK536
0.02171484 Italian_Basilicata
0.02220360 Italian_Tuscany
0.02258576 Sicilian_West
0.02283162 Greek_Thessaly
0.02406283 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.02431840 Italian_Campania
0.02438348 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK535
0.02472036 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ32
0.02483790 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.02493685 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02498039 Greek_Izmir

Eurogenes K13

Distance to: Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481___AD_266___Cover age_56.57%
5.04560205 Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
6.47954474 Italian_Lazio
6.86698624 Italian_Marche
7.03960226 Italian_Abruzzo
7.18844211 Italian_Abruzzo
7.20278418 Italian_Apulia
7.26296771 Italian_Molise
7.53385691 West_Sicilian
7.56892991 Italian_Umbria
7.57574419 Italian_Basilicata
8.18113073 Albanian_Central_Albania
8.22153270 Italian_Sicily
8.56770681 Greek_Cyclades
8.74476415 Italian_Campania
8.80000000 Greek_Samos
8.91353465 Italian_Romagna
9.15834592 Central_Greek
9.19088135 Greek_Kefalonia
9.19248606 Greek_Athens
9.57304549 South_Italian
9.69286335 Tuscan
9.70632783 Greek_Euboea_South
9.95081404 Greek_Central

Thanks Trojet for the update!

[enter_tain]

That Albanian from Mirdite really should be removed until we get more samples from there.

[Excine]

Oh wow. Look at that. Who would have thought?



This early Montenegro sample is as close of a sample we've have to a Proto-Albanian. Maybe not 100%, but 90% of the way there. Definitely closer to Albanian Illyrians than Croatian Illyrians.

What makes you think that this mixed Illyrian-East Med who lived in a Roman city is a good proxy for Proto-Albanians? When you wrote that he is "definitely closer to Albanian Illyrians than Croatian Illyrians" where you exactly did you infer this information from? This person carried ancestry which didn't exist in the Balkans before the Romans. Neither "Albanian Illyrians" or any other Illyrians would carry many types of ancestry he carries. Maybe you should check them.


Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0719% / 0.01071892 | R5P
42.6 HRV_EIA
20.8 ARM_LBA
14.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
10.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA

Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0982% / 0.01098211 | R5P
34.0 HRV_EIA
26.4 ARM_LBA
21.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.0 GRC_Helladic_EBA
7.2 Levant_JOR_EBA

[torzio]

This is an early Iapygian sample and his clade is mostly found in the Hoti tribe and the Y21878>FT29003>Cluster from Albanians of North Macedonia. There is a variety of clades under J-Z597 starting from ancient BCE samples from the Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture and continuing in the Iron Age Illyrians. The Daunian J2b-L283 samples are unfortunately low coverage.

ID
NEO806
Date (mean)
1063 BCE
Phylogeny
J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878
Archaeological Context
Italy_BronzeAge
Site
Grotta Delle Mura
Location
40.957, 17.29
Source
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.04.490594v1

J2b-L283>>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878

As I have said before, this early East Adriatic migration pattern can only be possible if >Z638+ was already on the other side of the ocean which it was, more accurately in the Bronze Age Dalmatian Posusje culture.

Also, this is important to point out since some who have no idea about the phylogeny of J2b-L283 are repeatedly spreading misinformation when it comes to the ancient samples in question. This is my earlier post on this thread regarding this topic:

Of course we know the Daunians ( known as Iapodes in the croatian/slovenian border ) arrived in Foggia area of italy late bronze and early iron age ...........one would guess they also migrated through liburnian and dalmatian lands , but do we have a time frame fro this southern movement ?

[torzio]

Veneti-Histri and partially Liburni had nothing to do with the so called Thraco-Cimmerian horizont, they were part of Este Culture, an Urnfield Culture variant. AFAIK, Slovenan archaeologists also involve Lausitz Culture in case of this people, hard to guess.

As i have been telling before, the Daco-Thracian culture was heavily influenced by the Indo-Iranian culture, the Phrygian cap is likely an early Indo-Iranian element, and many of the clothes, attire, religious beliefs. Though they were patriliearly descended from Gava Urnfielders they differed a lot from them in many aspects which includes these Steppe Indo-Iranian influences.

Veneti also have Polada culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polada_culture

[enter_tain]

What makes you think that this mixed Illyrian-East Med who lived in a Roman city is a good proxy for Proto-Albanians? When you wrote that he is "definitely closer to Albanian Illyrians than Croatian Illyrians" where you exactly did you infer this information from? This person carried ancestry which didn't exist in the Balkans before the Romans. Neither "Albanian Illyrians" or any other Illyrians would carry many types of ancestry he carries. Maybe you should check them.


Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0719% / 0.01071892 | R5P
42.6 HRV_EIA
20.8 ARM_LBA
14.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
10.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA

Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0982% / 0.01098211 | R5P
34.0 HRV_EIA
26.4 ARM_LBA
21.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.0 GRC_Helladic_EBA
7.2 Levant_JOR_EBA

Proto-Albanians lived in Late Antiquity during the Roman Empire, not the Bronze Age. This is a Z638 in Montenegro, where we have a southern Dalmatian popping up with the same Y-DNA.

I would also point you out to the fact that 2/3rds of the Albanian Vocabulary is Latin genius.

[torzio]

Well, certainly i would really like to know about the Veneti-Histri people, what Y-DNA they carried, because archaeology states that they derived from Este Culture which in turn shared a common ancestor with Proto-VIllanovan. Somehow things are a bit messy, and i guess the Urnfield Cultural Complex should mean that in this cultural complex there was various Y-DNA participating and sharing in this networking channel which shared common beliefs, rituals, and lifestyle.

I am guessing we should play the hard game of comparing the burials with pre-Urnfield/Hallstatt and post to deduce who was the lineage because the bearers of these culture unfortunately cremated their deaths and we require a science-fiction tool to get the DNA from the ashes in urn.

Veneti-Histri was established late as one unit/region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetia_et_Histria

[Tomenable]

Archeogentic Conference about Wielbark Culture, its history, and its further expansion will start in Poznan in late June:

https://archeo-amu-edu-pl.translate....en&_x_tr_hl=pl

There are already some results from Wielbark Culture (and from its Maslomecz Group) which I described in this thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...18-are-I1-M253

[Dushman]

What makes you think that this mixed Illyrian-East Med who lived in a Roman city is a good proxy for Proto-Albanians? When you wrote that he is "definitely closer to Albanian Illyrians than Croatian Illyrians" where you exactly did you infer this information from? This person carried ancestry which didn't exist in the Balkans before the Romans. Neither "Albanian Illyrians" or any other Illyrians would carry many types of ancestry he carries. Maybe you should check them.


Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0719% / 0.01071892 | R5P
42.6 HRV_EIA
20.8 ARM_LBA
14.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
10.6 GRC_Helladic_EBA

Target: SIMULATED_Montenegro_Doclea_Bjelovine:R3481_AD2 66Coverage_56.57%
Distance: 1.0982% / 0.01098211 | R5P
34.0 HRV_EIA
26.4 ARM_LBA
21.4 ITA_Sicily_EBA
11.0 GRC_Helladic_EBA
7.2 Levant_JOR_EBA

These samples and more of them in the future will be extremely meaningful and useful for us to understand the demographic changes in the Balkans and elsewhere.

The presence of this Levantine admixture could be responsible as well as explain the Eastern shift of Albanians.

Knowing the limitations of PCA plots, simplistic views such as purely 20% Slavic North-East shift do not seem convincing.

How about North-East (Slavic, Dacian, Scythian, or even Cimmerian) + North (Germamic, Gothic, Norman) + Eastern (Anatolian, Armenian, Levantine, Greek islands)?

The separate Northern and Eastern shifts are completely ignored and all attributed to Slavs.

Yet we know both from history, archaeology, and now genetics the presence of Celts, Germanic tribesmen, Syrians, etc. in the Balkans. The Syrians even brought their religious cults with them, then we have Moesian Goths, Thracian Goths, Pannonian Goths, etc.

They all left and the Balkans is just Illyro-Thracian and Slavic?

[Pax Augusta]

One is from Foggia, seems to have a good tree back to the 17th century, the other has no good tree, but his surname is most common in Lazio, Tuscany and Abruzzo, much rarer in the North East.

Can you show me a link? On FTDNA, surnames are often incorrectly reported if they are ancestors of Italians who migrated abroad.

[Hawk]

Two from those E-V13 in Croatia have local autosomal, one E-V13 -> Z5018 from Viminacium has more of a Germanic/Central European autosomal.